TBird
167 posts
Dec 31, 2015
7:55 AM
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This is inspired by my recent post about the opportunity I just had to experiment with an amp at my local music shop. I don't get to play amplified very often so whenever I do there are always a few minutes of initial "culture shock" before I find my "sea legs". Because of my lack of experience, every time I play amplified I'm always left with a long list of thoughts and questions. Here's one of them:
I find it hard to maintain consistent volume through an amplifier. What I mean is things like doublestops, octaves, and other such sonicly-rich techniques that one might use to add texture to ones acoustic playing really make the amp sing (which is super fun) but also seem to come through the amp at a much higher volume then single notes do. This can make it hard for me to play without accidentally creating wildly jarring jumps in volume. I'm sure it just comes down to familiarity with amplified playing, but I'm curious if anyone else can relate to this, tell me I'm not crazy, or other some advice on how I can work to smooth this out.
Thanks.
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Be humble for you are made of earth.
Be noble for you are made of stars.
Last Edited by TBird on Dec 31, 2015 9:31 AM
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Littoral
1321 posts
Dec 31, 2015
8:11 AM
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If you don't change volume on the mic or the amp I think the only thing left is technique. I certainly agree with the sonicly-rich things adding texture but I don't get the drop in volume with single notes. In fact, I think it's more likely to be the opposite with chords and octaves being a slight drop in volume by comparison -if you don't account for it some with technique.
Mic choice and articulating single notes clearly are two issues I'd consider.
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barbequebob
3098 posts
Dec 31, 2015
8:43 AM
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It sounds more like a breath control issue to me.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Killa_Hertz
54 posts
Dec 31, 2015
9:34 AM
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Im far from an expert, but what about trying a compressor or some type of filter to bring everything tighter together?
Just a thought.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Joe_L
2646 posts
Dec 31, 2015
10:30 AM
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It's technique. You need to practice.
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Kingley
3984 posts
Dec 31, 2015
10:34 AM
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+1 on what Bob and Joe said.
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TBird
168 posts
Dec 31, 2015
10:52 AM
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"You need to practice." -Joe_L-
Yes... yes I do... :) and more attention to breath control will be given. Thanks for the input everyone.
I messed with the amp for about a half hour, and by the end I was starting to feel like I was getting it more under control. Adjusting to something new takes time I guess. Maybe if I ever get around to actually owning an amp I'll be able to knuckle down and give it the attention in deserves.
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Be humble for you are made of earth.
Be noble for you are made of stars.
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Joe_L
2648 posts
Dec 31, 2015
10:57 AM
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If you aren't playing with other musicians, you'll have to adjust again later. It's a learning process and its speed to be fun. Keep it fun.
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Littoral
1322 posts
Dec 31, 2015
10:58 AM
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Never can quite figure stuff like this out.
"If you don't change volume on the mic or the amp I think the only thing left is technique."
"It sounds more like a breath control issue to me."
"It's technique. You need to practice."
+1 on what Bob and Joe said.
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Greg Heumann
3149 posts
Dec 31, 2015
11:28 AM
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Playing amplified is an art and a skill - doing it well takes YEARS of practice. The fellas are right - breath control is key. Also be aware that this is MOST difficult if you walk up to a vocal mic at the front of the stage and play through it. Learning to control it there - especially as you experiment with various cupping techniques -takes lots of practice for sure - but it can be done.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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Kingley
3985 posts
Dec 31, 2015
11:55 AM
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Littoral - I'm guessing your reply was aimed at me? If so, there's really nothing to figure out. When I answered I'd merely read the OP and then skimmed over the replies. A "+1" omission of your name was not intentional. It was merely an oversight. Certainly no offence was intended. Having read your first post in more detail, I agree with what you said too.
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Littoral
1323 posts
Dec 31, 2015
12:12 PM
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All good. Happens to me a lot.
Maybe I should learn the value of just getting to the point.
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SuperBee
3161 posts
Dec 31, 2015
12:54 PM
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Hi tbird. I think your saying that when you play splits and double stops etc, these things come across louder than your single notes. Isnt that ok? Isnt that part of the reason for playing octave splits, to present those notes with more power?
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Killa_Hertz
56 posts
Dec 31, 2015
1:00 PM
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That's what a Comp pedal is basically made for. Might should give it a try.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Slimharp
415 posts
Dec 31, 2015
1:08 PM
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For me I dont necessarily want constant volume. What am I playing ? fills ? comps ? rhythm cops ? or solo ? Most of the old cats didnt use volume controlled mics. They adjusted their breath. I like them to deal with some guitar players.
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nacoran
8852 posts
Dec 31, 2015
2:03 PM
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Slimharp, I don't have a volume control (I actually want to get one because my voice is kind of quiet compared to a harp, but I get by with a pedal to amplify it) but I do love an on off! You never know when the guy next to you has his gain up to high and turning around will cause a squeal! :)
Killa, a compression pedal would work for narrowing the range of noise a bit, but you'd also lose some of your dynamics. It's possible that he's only noticing his volume issues amped but he might have some acoustic too that just aren't as noticeable. It's always good to do some recording of yourself to check for things like that.
Everyone is saying practice your technique, but no one is getting specific- there are a couple ways to deal with volume without getting into gear- breath control is certainly one part of it, but adjusting your cup is another must (insert joke here). Just opening up your hands can reduce how loud you are a lot, and if you specifically notice it when you are playing miked it might be that cupping and distancing may be more of an issue than breath support. Even if you aren't holding the mic and have it on a stand there is a lot of technique to adjusting your distance. There are couple local singers I particularly like to watch because of how they deal with the mic. Lots of little vocal tricks work for harp too, for instance, when you really wail on the harp the tone changes a big, just like when a singer belts a note out. Watch singers with powerful voices- when they get to a note that they need that change on but don't want to overwhelm you with they lean back from the mic. You can change your angle just a little too, on a directional mic. (I kept thinking I needed a wind screen on this one song, because I had a whistling part. I saw her whistling no problem- she just turned her head a few degrees! Little things.)
It might be breath support, but like I said, if it's specifically when you are playing amped my guess would be that it's hand work more than breath work. (Take it with a grain of salt though, since I haven't heard a recording that's just guessing based on what you described.)
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Killa_Hertz
58 posts
Dec 31, 2015
3:15 PM
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I know it's not the answer, but it certainly could help. Too compressed would be no good.
I was a sound tech for years. With the right gear you can make anything sound good. Hah. But ofcourse you would rather it be your skill and tone that comes thru and is the basis of your sound. But even some of the greats still use a Comp pedal in their pedal board setup.
nacoran your advice is surely a better route to start with. I just was saying a comp. shouldn't be overlooked. If set right it will really bring everything together. Unless your playing style uses a very wide dynamic range. But you could always click it on and off.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 01, 2016 12:23 AM
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Greg Heumann
3150 posts
Dec 31, 2015
4:03 PM
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Hold on, hold on. TBird is taking about volume between techniques while playing - you can't adjust a volume control every note. And what I said above is certainly true. But that doesn't mean volume controls aren't useful - in fact the majority of pros use them and the majority of players use them. They can be really useful to compensate for the difference in volume between an A harp and a Low F harp, for example - or to allow you to walk over to your amp and adjust it without fear of feedback, or to back off for comping, or to leave headroom as the band gets louder, or about a dozen other reasons.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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TBird
169 posts
Jan 01, 2016
1:29 PM
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SuperBee:
"Hi tbird. I think your saying that when you play splits and double stops etc, these things come across louder than your single notes. Isnt that ok? Isnt that part of the reason for playing octave splits, to present those notes with more power?"
That's totally what I'm saying and that's a really good point. I would use that kind of stuff to give certain notes punch when playing acoustically, so why not just embrace it when playing amplified too?
I also like nacoran's idea of thinking like a vocalist. Like maybe opening (relaxing) the cup a little bit when really leaning hard on a bent 4&5 hole draw. I donno... just thinking out loud here...
Happy New Year everyone!
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Be humble for you are made of earth.
Be noble for you are made of stars.
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hvyj
2915 posts
Jan 01, 2016
2:03 PM
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TBird , you need to work on EVENNESS OF TONE. You even out your volumel and attack by creating the airflow FROM YOUR DIAPHRAGM . From what you describe, you are using your mouth, lips and and jaw to produce air pressure which is WRONG. Your throat should be open and relaxed, your jaw should be relaxed and dropped down like you are about to start a yawn. I assume you are not tongue blocking . The air aperture in your lips should be as large as possible consistent with still producing a single note, which is much larger than it would be if you were sipping through a straw. And most likely much larger than you probably think. Keep the harp deep in your mouth. and keep your mouth throat and chest relaxed and open. Produce all airflow or air pressure from deep down in your diaphragm. If you do it right it will feel like there is a direct connection between your diaphragm in and the reeds linked by a column of air. This will even out your volume.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 01, 2016 2:06 PM
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Killa_Hertz
65 posts
Jan 01, 2016
4:14 PM
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Hvyj .... pretty good description bro.
Diaphragm and reeds are connected. I like that.
Im just finding out I'm doing exactly what your saying tbird is doing. I definatly get my playing force from my chest, and mouth rather than my diaphragm. My throat is tense, not relaxed.
I'm trying to figure it out. But it's kinda tough changing habits.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 01, 2016 8:38 PM
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hvyj
2916 posts
Jan 01, 2016
4:50 PM
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Well, it's sorta counterintuitive, and buying a compressor isn't going to help. Open your throat like u are trying to swallow a hard boiled egg whole without choking and keep it in that position as u play. Drop your jaw like you are about to start to yawn, and keep it in that position as you play. Maintaining as large as possible air aperture in your lips is important for good tone. As far as harp position relative to the mouth is concerned, the guy who makes Harp Gear amplifiers has some instructive photographs on the Harp Gear website. You might find it helpful to check those out. Also, practice diaphragmatic breathing by taking very deep breaths, making sure your belly, not your chest, rises and falls as you inhale and exhale. Keep your airway open, relaxed and unobstructed. Keep your tongue out of the way and low in your mouth as you play.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 01, 2016 5:01 PM
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Joe_L
2649 posts
Jan 01, 2016
6:05 PM
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Spending money on pedals will not fix a problem with basic technique and fundamentals. If possible, go out and watch other players. If that isn't possible, take some lessons from a guy like David Barrett.
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walterharp
1709 posts
Jan 01, 2016
7:32 PM
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one of the initial observations is correct all things considered... Since reed volume is not limited by breath usually, two reeds will be twice as loud as one, chords even louder.. so you do have to play softer with more notes if you want to have constant volume.. even more so when comping as it should not be in front. practice with an amp helps for sure
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TBird
171 posts
Jan 01, 2016
10:00 PM
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Thanks hvyj. I actually play mostly tongue blocked, but I hear what you're saying.
It's becoming clear to me that one of these days I'm just going to have to record and post a video of myself playing, and then really turn you guys loose to rip apart my technique. :)
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Be humble for you are made of earth.
Be noble for you are made of stars.
Last Edited by TBird on Jan 01, 2016 10:01 PM
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barbequebob
3103 posts
Jan 02, 2016
8:41 AM
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This still comes down to playing technique problems and investing in a compression unit is a complete waste of money that will NEVER solve the problem, period!! Too many players tend to think that gear and pedals are gonna solve all their problems and that kind of thinking is just dumb as the day is long.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Killa_Hertz
78 posts
Jan 02, 2016
8:14 PM
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EDIT: I apologize. I just went back and read the first post. For some reason i thought tbird was a gigging musician with this problem. I must have gotten mixed up with another post or something idk. No wonder everyone was so against Adding gear. My fault. I'm stupid. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth...
Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 02, 2016 8:20 PM
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