This is an offshoot of Michael's thread where rhythm harp is discussed. I had a hard time calling this post rhythm playing as I am not sure playing something like fills is rhythm or lead playing, but...
When I listen to support players like James Cotton playing live with Muddy, I hear harp all over the place. Basically, he is soloing or playing fills on top of everything.
The lines he plays aren't typically repeated. By that, I mean he isn't playing parallel to a bass line. He is playing a variety of licks.
In general I find it tiresome -- even if it´s done well (not stepping on the vocals in terms of volume etc). When done by beginners it can be downright insulting. I much prefer the "organ"(-ic) approach -- octaves etc -- at discreet volume. Now, fills is another thing, if it comes between the lines. Another art form, as a matter of fact.
Thank you for starting this new thread. Continuing the discussion then... (re the harp having a proper role in the song other than silent/soloing)...
What do you think of this one? Homesick James and Snooky Pryor. The harp is supporting/doubling the vocal line throughout. No surprise that I like this. Did I say like. Love.
BTW if anyone knows the full lyrics, could you let me know?
My personal reaction is that the playing over the vocals and stepping all over the guitar solo weakens what is otherwise very cool harp playing. I like the repetive use of line oriented fills.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 02, 2015 6:48 AM
Another real world approach to ensemble or support playing is interaction. Say the guitar player is comping and is playing a repeating rhythmic figure. You play a short line at low volume in available space that sorta completes or plays off of that figure. If u are playing with a compatible and interactive musician he will hear what u are doing and adjust so what u are each doing fits better with one another and u both keep doing it for a while. This is all done very subtle and low key and just moves along with the tune.
Now if the guitar player (or it could be a keyboard player or even the drummer) does not have what they call "big ears" this won't work. Nor will it work with material being played "just like the record" or with recorded back up tracks. Or with a player so preoccupied and wrapped up in his own playing that he's not paying attention to you and the rest of what is going on around him.
This is one reason why it is impossible to assess the musicianship of a performer playing along with recordings. You can assess the quality of their technique and perhaps their time, but not how effectively they can interact with other musicians, which, after all, is what performance is all about.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 02, 2015 9:24 AM
No matter what your name is, the harp player should never play on top of the vocals or soloist. I think the harmonica player's role is: 1.solo or play fills when indicated by bandleader (or if no one is taking that space) 2.play behind the vocalist or soloist sparely and tastefully (long, organ type padding using octaves; mirroring bass lines or hooks; playing the root note to signal chord changes)
The goal is to be part of the band. Play repetitively and musically. Listen to what the band is doing and, if you can't add to it, then don't play.
Those two roles are the things a harmonica player should be doing, and those are the only things. And there's nothing more to be said on the subject. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
hvyj - Right. This is the next level of sophistication I'd like to get with my band. The soloists (and I include myself at times) tend to inhabit their own space during a solo. The band do respond to the soloist but it would be great if it were a two-way street. Nice, food for thought.
Micro - I absolutely accept you know what you like, and that's a great thing. Only thing is there are so many counter-examples to the idea of only playing sparingly and tastefully while comping in the musical canon, they can't be simply dismissed. Maybe your ideas show the current taste (and I think you're probably more tuned into the zeitgeist than me) but was it always like that?
I've read so often here and elsewhere about people complaining about over-active harp players that I can only think it must be the prevailing view.
Then I hear Satan and Adam - the harp never stops!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 02, 2015 10:02 AM
One of my favorite blues songs (Right behind Smokestack Lightning). Good ol' Lil' W is mainly supporting with this riff throughout- eh, just listen down below. I love this guy's stuff.
I love that type of harp because it becomes an instrument in the mix instead of just a solo instrument. I don't like how in the few songs I play in the band I just blow out a solo and then walk off. I absolutely detest saxophone for this reason (and because it sounds like a stupid, obese, brassy fart), as it just comes in for a crappy solo, destroys the feel of the song, and then walks off. Why Do Fools Fall In Love by Frankie Lymon is a prime example of this. I digress.
Before I say this next thing, let me say that just sucking chords or octaves or whatever is perfectly fine, and sounds wonderful in songs and everything. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But playing riffs or even soloing all during the song (a la James Cotton, I suppose), for me, is a way for the harp to participate and add something meaningful to the song that isn't just noise in the right key (which is why I dislike a lot of more modern rock- the guitar(s) are just slamming chords, making noise in the right key. Again, I digress). Of course, it has to be done well since the harp is such a... loud and brassy instrument.
During a solo, everyone should stay out of the soloist's way. Otherwise you restrict where he can go and what he can do. As a soloist LISTEN TO THE DRUMMER and place your notes in relation to the beat. That way the drummer (if he knows what he's doing) can play accents in relation to what u are playing and the band will follow what the drummer does and they will make you sound great.
A while ago I posted a vid of me playing harp in support of a black female singer, Michelle. There were some full time professional musicians in that band which was put together just for that show. The band made me sound pretty decent during my solo. Pretty good example of a band staying out of the way and helping at the same time. Incidentally, that was not initially my space to solo. It was the keyboard player's turn to solo but he couldn't and didn't play one so the guitar player standing next to him realized what was happening and yelled out to me to take it so I did. You need to be able to react on the fly. There had been no rehearsal, just a song list.
At one point when I was playing the drummer hit a couple of pickup beats I did not pick up on at the time and did not react to because I simply didn't hear it when he did it. So he went right back to what he had been doing without missing a beat. I am blessed to be able to regularly play with musicians who are better than I am.
Adam is a great player with a distinctive style. I am not a great player. If I played as prolifically as Adam does with Satan and Adam I wouldn't get very many gigs. As a matter of fact, it seems like the less I play, the more work I get. Whatever limitations I may have as a player, I do think thatI understand how to play effectively with other musicians. That's my saving grace.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 02, 2015 11:10 AM
It only takes one bad harp player playing over everything to convince a lot of people that it shouldn't be done as a general rule!
I'm a harp out front kind of guy most of the time. I find these three things interesting-
-We say that the harmonica is the instrument most like a human voice.
-We expect the guitar player to play pretty much all the time.
-We aren't surprised and enjoy when two voices sing harmony.
Of course, you want to mix it up. We've got songs where I play the role of rhythm guitar, we've got songs where I solo, we've got songs where I follow the melody, we've got songs where I play harmony, we've got songs where I just do fills and we've got songs were I sit out entirely.
Such as they are, the rules I try to follow are- if I am following the melody I try to stay low in the mix. If you start interfering with the ability of the audience to understand what the singer is saying you have screwed up badly. I think it's better if you are playing a different voice, as it were. If you are thinking of yourself as a voice remember that a lot of harmony is built by having singers in different ranges. If you have a singer who is singing the lines without flourishes you can add the flourishes. If they are adding the flourishes you play the line straight. If you are playing the rhythm part, don't assume that has to be train chugging. It has to be rhythmic. It doesn't even have to be chords. Drums don't play chords. It does have to be simpler than what the vocals are doing. Unison works well to give a song some punch.
That said, there are some songs where just fill is appropriate. You've got to look at each song as it's own little world. I don't remember if it was the other thread or something I read on Facebook, but it went something like this- Don't play just to play. If you hear something that will fit there, play it.- If you follow that advice you'll at least be doing something that sounds musical to you. If your band agrees you probably are onto something (although depending on where you are on the art-for-art's-sake vs. paying-the-bills spectrum you may want to get your fan's input too.
From a mix point of view I'm still on board with how Kesha and Pitbull did it in Timber. The harp plays the whole song and it's hitting the melody a lot, but if you listen to the mix they turn it up and down a lot. Dynamics are your friend.
I suspect part of it is tradition. Harp, at least until the loop pedal, was an instrument that you can't play when you are singing. That meant any time the singer and the harp player were the same guy the harp and the vocal weren't going at the same time. If you were a lead singer and a guitar player there is a good chance you were already picking up a lot of the solos, so you weren't likely to be a harp player on top of that (unless you went to the Bob Dylan school of harp- a few notable exceptions aside).
Of course, most of the configurations of the band that I've played harp in were me, someone singing and either a rhythm guitar or a bass. When we were a full 4 or 5 piece I found there were times when I was running into range issues with the guy playing guitalele. Usually the way we wrote songs was me and the rhythm guitar player would write them then teach them to the bass player and the lead guitar player. That was only a problem when the lead guitar guy was on his guitalele. He and I had a habit of creating similar lines and several times I had to change what I had been doing to get out of his way. (A Low Low F is a great way to do that, by the way.)
And it's not just my playing. I'm a hack player. On a good night I can really shine at an open mic, but there are holes in my theory and it takes me way too long to get songs down, and once I have them down I get thrown by changes (even worse with lyrics- if we change a line I'll sing it the old way 90% of the time because my brain, while I'm up on stage, sort of gets all repetitive). I'm lousy at improvising. So take my opinion with however many grains of salt you need, but it's also my taste in harp music in general. I like to hear it forward. It doesn't have to be everywhere, but I really like songs where harmonica is really forward. Adam, Jason, J-Sin, etc.
-and one last aside- it just occured to me, for those of you with some metal history you may get this- chugging is Metallica guitar. I'd rather have Guns & Roses guitar. :P
@HarpNinja -- Rhythm harp is a lot more than just chording and too often a lot of players think of rhythm harp as just chording.
What's the right thing? First of all, there's no such thing as one size fits all. There are tons of situations where chording just doesn't fit at all. If you listen to horn lines (and when I say that, under NO circumstances am I talking about the soloing) like you hear on a jump blues recording or on a slow blues behind guys like BB, Freddy, and Albert King, as examples, those lines are rhythm parts and good rhythm parts, be it chords or in single notes or with others played in harmony has to groove to work properly and the usual thing too many harp players damned near go into automatic pilot on with riffing can sound horribly out of place and make the groove of a tune a total mess.
What many harp players do in a Muddy Waters groove works because that's a signature part of that sound, but elsewhere, you HAVE to find something different and the non stop riffing can be annoyance, especially when it's all over everything.
There are different approaches for the classic Chicago Blues styles as well. The more South Side, down home styles ala Muddy, Wolf, LW, John Brim, harp doing fills works, but the sounds of the West Side Chicago Blues ala Buddy Guy, Otis Rush, Magic Sam, Harold Burrage, that approach falls totally flat on your face and it's completely intrusive and here's where learning to lay with a horn player's approach where the line, even at times a single note held out longer than a single measure (but NEVER as loud or louder than the vocals or anything else), and when playing the line, learning how to play the DYNAMICS of the line becomes vitally important to understand (and here's another spot where learning breath control comes into play).
Hvyj makes a good point to be taken with his last post, but if you're in an open jam, too often you're gonna be around drummers that are FAR from knowledgeable about blues plus too often, their time is gonna be absolutely horrible, and it can be a situation where you gotta musically hold on for dear life and pray.
If you do those horn line parts, it's extremely important that you don't mess up the time on it or it's just gonna wind up sounding like another harp player riffing with no rhyme or reason and it'll mess the groove up royally.
Part of the equation of rhythm playing is do a helluva of listening, and when I mean listening, it means not just listening to the damned solos and nothing else, which is the typical jam hack mentality that annoys the living crap out of me, and so listening to EVERYTHING that's going on and not just solos is what's called listening to music with bigger ears, which is the way a real pro musician listens to music and the more you listen, the more you in term build up a mental musical data base, the more quickly you can spot things and quickly adjust on the fly, and that also means that, as a harmonica player, you absolutely CANNOT just listen exclusively to harp players, which is a gigantic mistake you can count on many harp players to constantly do.
Fills don't always work if you're, for example, in a band situation with more than the usual guitar, bass, drums and keyboard line up, especially if there are horns on the bandstand. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@bbqbob: Yep. At some jams interaction with the drummer is a matter of damage control. It be like, ok, what can I do to keep the train wreck from going completely off the rails.
I heard a band night b4 last...4 piece, with one of this country's great bass players...a real pro with lots of history over several decades...this was just a local pub gig...the drummer was the main pick-up man in town, getting a lot of work and deservedly so..really with those 2 the band was always gonna score...the bass player had a seat at the back, angled toward the drummer and those 2 were just like in a conversation about dynamics and endings, and the guitarist would also be involved when he needed to be...the bass man was watching the frontman and reading his act, and translating for the drummer....the frontman...vocals, harp, sax...he was calling the guitar in, and indicating when he wanted to close the song...and obviously had some signals to indicate repeats of last line... So this was all great. Guitar was present and supportive, never obnoxious...but the same could not be said of the harp. The harp man is respected, has been around a long time, i guess a good front man for his ability to talk to the crowd and the band but I felt the harp was in the way. When the guitarist took a vocal, it gave the harp more time to play and that didn't help. It's this kind of thing that leads me to reflect on my choice of instrument... This guy...I first heard him play in '82 and I would say that is one of the reasons I picked up the harp...I've always respected him as a player but perhaps based on very little... Anyway...you know Jr Wells...if you have heard his work from the 50s you know he could play in that ensemble setting as the sideman as well as play the frontman role as he did in the 60s...but his harp seemed to become sparser over time. Sometimes it seems like he didn't even really want to play, it was just a token effort...and I've heard it said he wasn't a very good harp player...but I think actually he was judicious about how he used the harp...it's there, he is singing so it's his gig, he doesn't have to play a harp to prove his worth, he blows it when he is moved to do so, and if it's 1 note big deal... Not a very good harp player...an amazing harp player who chose a different direction in my view but whatever There are/have been some amazing harp players in accompaniment roles. Jimmy Rogers knew about it and always had a harp in his band, in the same way Muddy did. But those are really fairly specialised outfits. Cotton, once he led his own band...well yeah he is playing very prominently and you hear him on the johnny winter - produced muddy album, he is like another guitar on Hard Again...but he is an exceptional player... The little Walter with hound dog Taylor clip I think is interesting because of how badly that combination works. Hound dog Taylor was not a guitarist in the style which little Walter would normally work and neither of them adapted to the other. It's said that HDT simply could not play any other way and Walter kept playing the way he wanted to play. Iirc he was very angry about having to play with HDT on that tour and it really was a poor decision on part of the organisers. I think the fact that this footage is so widely shown due to being almost all there is to see of little Walter contributes much to the notion his creative days were behind him by then. In my view it's a good example of a good harp player playing badly. He is quite inappropriate for the song especially as this is really the dog's place to shine..
And now I've read Bob's post...I understand mine a bit better because Bob actually knows what he is talking about whereas I just know there's something and I'm talking... Cheers Bob, I appreciate your work
I prefer it when the harp isn't going all the time.
Especially if the guitarist is doing some tasty fingerpicking, I sit back and enjoy it, looking with admiration and let him shine.
My teacher gave me three principles.
1. Don't solo all the time, because when it comes time for your solo you'll have nothing left to say. 2. If you aren't adding anything, just shut up. 3. Don't play over the vocals. The harp is close to the human voice and competes.
He also would often not play at all in the first verse.
I like the George Costanza principle. Leave 'em wanting more.
With Hound Dog Taylor, he was basically cut from the Elmore James mold but he was musically a lot moe limited as a musician than Elmore was and Elmore's non slide style was totaly different and he could easily back someone like LW and I could understand why LW hated being on that tour with Hound Dog because of HDT's limitations.
Many of those European tours are package tours and they could be real hit or miss because artists totally uncompatible musically could be a real problem and having each of them with their own separate bands, as ideal as it would be, in terms of costs to the promoter, would be financially prohibative.
For Hound Dog, it would be better if a sax player along the lines of someone like JT Brown, who was the long time sax player in Elmore James' band would've been musically a much better fit and as a harp player, that's exactly what I would emulate in order to fit in properly within the musical context.
What Junior Wells did in the 50's worked because bands played with more of a swinging feel to the groove back then and later on, many bands were a lot less swinging in its approach and so that approach just doesn't work in that context, so he had to adapt what he was doing (and that's something many harp players NEVER really learn to do and their approach is too often something I would often refer to as being "a one way Harry").
@Superbee -- what the first paragraph of your post is the classic example of what a TRULY good rhythm section is supposed to do and that's being fully locked in and far too often in an open jam, that's totally opposite of what you describe. What the harp player was doing was just the stereotypical thing that a lot players have a tendency to do and just mindlessly riff all over the place. If this was a Muddy groove, or 50's South Side Chicago groove, that's fine (just don't be louder than the vocals or step all over everything), but if it was West Side Chicago style, I'd want him to either shut the hell up or play horn oriented lines. When harp players do that stereotypical stuff all the time without thinking about it, they have the freaking nerve to wonder why they're hit with disrespect and thought of as really s**tty musicians that should never be on a bandstand and they never learn to adjust their approach to what's going on around them and a major part of the problem is that the only goddamned thing they're listening to is harmonica and harmonica solos and little else beyond that and because of that idiotic attitude, they never learn to adjust and adapt their game at all and they only have themselves to blame for that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Interesting topic. Taste is everything. String quartets, dixieland jazz etc. are ensemble situations where all the instruments are more or less equal. They interact. They support each other while each playing an integral part in the whole effect. Little Walter with Muddy is the best at weaving tasteful harmonies and sympathetic rhythm riffs in with the vocals. Should work if you keep your ears open and show mutual respect and respect for the music. Just my humble opinion.
Last Edited by Georgia Blues on Dec 02, 2015 1:12 PM
There are strengths and limitations to every instrument in any setting. There's guitar or bass or drum accompaniment that can be as equally shitty as harmonica. In rock and blues, groove is so essential that most of the "clashing" things that I personally hear when they happen are much more rhythmically oriented than melodic stuff—maybe that's just me—sure you can overplay on anything... but I can actually tolerate a few clashing notes more than I can when rhythmic cacophony occurs. That's the real train wreck. Often that can be just as much the other instruments fault in a combo as the harp player...bands that rehearse, write their own tunes or arrangements or know each other's strengths/weaknesses can usually work this stuff out. Little Walter sounds amazing playing through the entirety of those Muddy tunes because he's found a groove, he's floating in a space where he can live and breathe life into the music, and everyone is listening to each other. Genius. Not easy. Great thread, applies to all instruments.
Years ago I made an acoustic recording with a buddy on his origial song. He shared it with his friend who was an egomaniacal electric guitarist who ran his own studio. I was asked to collaborate on his song as a result.
During our first run through I began to match the melody on the completed tracks note for note. "Whoa! Way, way, way to busy!" I explained my 'process' which was to grasp the entire song, absorbing the feel and groove. We would then proceed with the song as he desired. He grimaced and we went through it twice more. I was ready. It turns out all he wanted was a single soft sustained note at the very end of the song. I asked, "Why didn't you say so?" Sarcastically, "I didn't want to interrupt your process". Exit feeling foolish.
My process has been refined over the years but it's still basically a band-aid for theoretical and sight reading shortcomings. For a long while I stuck with the painful note for note thing, practicing the melody along with a recording in private. Then I would show up with pre-conceived notions that were difficult to overcome when they didn't jive with the vision.
So then, in addition to the melody I began playing along with the various other elements of the piece (ie bass, rhythm and other instruments). Things went much smoother but after working on it so much I'd arrive with my own imprinted ideas. If I knew they wanted an improvised solo I'd have one in the bag and would play it. "That was nice but I need you with high notes in a lower key." I was playing with better musicians who had higher and more specific expectations. I once had one who called out the harp key and the position. Position?
Don't get me wrong. My studio invitations have been few and far between. With rare exception they come from from family, friends or friends of friends. The ones who know me well will hum, whistle or plink my part. I've had three successful careers and none were as a musician. I consider myself more as a song player with improvisational skills than a musician unless I'm talking to a red haired beauty at the bar.
So I have seen professional musicians go into a studio absolutely cold and finish after 2 or 3 takes. I wonder what that feels like but sweat and uncertainty are key parts of my process and I might miss those if I was to crack a book.
As far as they who stomp on the vocals and solos, I picture them as a 4 year old that got into the chocolate and smeared themself and their surroundings with a mess. It's painful to watch or listen to that. But I've seen vocals and harp mesh beautifully. Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee come to mind.
I think it all depends on the song and the setting. I have often found it interesting that you see the number one rule of harp playing in places is...Don't play while singing is happening. And some of the best players in the world constantly violate this rule.
Over time I just came to the conclusion that again...what serves the song. There are songs where the harp player and vocalist(presuming not the same person) can go back and forth.. or harp and guitar. And there are other song where long held notes are all that is needed, or some chuggin chords, etc.
Now with that being said one should never try to stomp all over the vocal. Serve the song. stay out of the way when you need to. Interestingly staying out of the way does not always mean don't play.
I have only a couple thoughts to add to the mix. I thought of laying out but I decided I have something to say. ;^)
Of course a lot depends on the genre and you should NEVER step on the singer. But in general I try to adjust my playing style to the instrumental mix. In the same way that a harp player should avoid stepping on a singer, instruments that share the same aural space have to be really careful to be doing different things at the same time or laying out completely when the other instrument(s) is (are) playing. If specific instruments are absent I feel more latitude to fill the space they would otherwise occupy.
In an acoustic setting where there is usually no drum I try to provide some rhythmic support. If there is no bass I try to play some simple bass lines. If there is a strong rhythm section you don't need to encroach on their territory just as they shouldn't be really busy or otherwise distracting when you're soloing.
The instrument I choose often depends on the timbre of the singer's voice. Even if I am playing only fills I try to choose a lower or higher key harp than the vocal range of the singer (or particular song). I will use a low key harp with a lady singer and a higher key harp with a deeper male voice. Love those low key harps! (So long as you are playing amplified in some manner -- they just don't "cut" well otherwise.)
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
not only does this one have arguably one of the best harp solos ever, but Big Walter mirrors the melody throughout. Not fills all over or chording, but plays with the singing And it works...
That is one excellent harmonica solo. It has a strange power that grabbed my stomach along with my ears.
In re-imagining the whole song as is, but without the harmonica playing during the verses behind Mr. Rogers vocals, I liked "Walking by myself" even more. ---------- The Iceman
This is great discussion but I'm still having trouble with people laying down rules around never playing during solos etc. When in fact I keep coming up with counter examples that, I think, sound good.
Here's another: Taj Mahal's Leavin' Trunk. Harp supporting (or if you prefer 'stepping all over') Jesse Ed Davis' solo. Both on the studio and live versions.
I'm interested in Georgia Blues observation that there are styles where instruments interweave as in trad jazz. Is that not something to aspire to? I'm more comfortable with BBQ Bob's analysis that different styles have different rules. Are the rules about no harp duing solos and singing then applicable to a particular style of song - or the style at your blues jam?
Would Taj Mahal get booed off at your jam for overplaying?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 03, 2015 3:36 AM
Surely it's time for Adam to comment. I'm listening right now to Unlucky in Love and the harp is a constant force throughout. Interweaving with percussion, guitar and vocals. Where does this fit in?
I don't post videos much and can't find the instructions but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6HBVqWwkf4
Cotton playing behind Johnny Winter. To me a fine piece of work. It's endlessly debatable whether it's good or bad, useful or rude behavior. For me there are rare occasions where playing background like that is a good idea. Mostly I prefer to maybe do a bit at the end of vocal lines and maybe an intro, solo, and end piece depending on song etc. I have also found over the years, many times less is definitely more, and too much noodling makes the whole dynamic go away. There are just songs that don't need anything extra, and indeed, we do some material that doesn't even need a harp part. You get into some of the old gospel style and rudimentary guitar is supporting vocals and there's just no need for harp. This used to make me nervous but I realized, I'm half of a duo, the goal is a bigger picture than if I get to play this on that, and we have so much material that I o get to shine on.
A very important- even critical- idea on any stage is manners. If you are inspired and tasteful, and the harp will add TO, then good idea. But discretion is key. Taj Mahal can play wherever he wants to, I have seldom-if ever- heard him sound bad in a song. A lot of us have to tread cautiously and always consider our stage mates and what the audience is going to get out of it as well.
Fwiw, I've never been much of a Taj Mahal fan. I find much of his shit to be self indulgent and would never regard him as a good example of anything. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so YMMV.
It ain't supposed to be about the harmonica. It's about the music. This will be regarded by many as being sacrilegious, but to my taste, a very skilled player who IMHO tends to overplay is Joe Filisko. A lot of his stuff that I've listened to, although technically very well played, seems to have the objective of filling every available musical space with as much harmonica as can possibly fit. But of course there's nothing that qualifies me to make such a judgement. Opinions are like certain other things...everybody has at least one.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 03, 2015 7:00 AM
The "never ever" play over the vocalist rule is a nice starting point when performing at jams, on an unfamiliar tune with unfamiliar musicians, or perhaps when you feel you may be a bit out of your comfort zone, technically or musically. But rules are meant to be broken and there are numerous exceptions, and as BBQ Bob says, perhaps even necessary, as in some Chicago style blues where the amplified harp is quite busy. But the "less is more" approach is always a good starting point. But to lay it down as hard n' fast law is probably nonsense. Again, crappy rhythm guitar playing is more common than crappy rhythm harp in my experience, and IMHO.
Yes agree with tomaxe and others - there isn't some fixed rule to this.
That said, in a jam my personal view is that the soloists have been waiting patiently for their spot, and they would be a more likely to want the musical space (and spotlight) for their playing. So I would rarely join in. I sing, and wouldn't want busy accompaniment during that, unless it's some Robert Lockwood style playing.
And Taj Mahal? He's one of my favourites. An original and natural musician
I read an interview of Bob Margolin who played guitar with Muddy. He said something about how Muddy would say that he wanted the harmonica to " hold up " his voice. This implies that he wanted the harp to play when he was singing. Muddy was such an influential cat that this undoubtedly shaped the style of harmonica playing in what we call Chicago blues.
I read an interview of Bob Margolin who played guitar with Muddy. He said something about how Muddy would say that he wanted the harmonica to " hold up " his voice. This implies that he wanted the harp to play when he was singing. Muddy was such an influential cat that this undoubtedly shaped the style of harmonica playing in what we call Chicago blues.
If you are playing alone, you can try to replace all the instruments with harp. Go for it! Frankly I can only listen to this a little. It is fine for checking out the chops of the musician and specific techniques, and it has some novelty interest, but it is not music I would put on to listen for pleasure. Even extended solos lose interest for me. I like musical interaction and collaboration in an ensemble.
Some musical styles are based in playing lots of harp in specific ways using specific techniques. Joe Filisko plays those old school styles in the way of the original artists, and sound fantastic. He has studied these styles and plays these styles accurately and skillfully. That style of harp would not fit some music. So far I haven't heard music in which Joe misapplies his love of those styles to music it doesn't serve well. I don't play those old school styles, but I appreciate them.
The great majority of my public harp performance has been as a side man playing rock, soul, blues, folk, country, and bluegrass/newgrass. The role of the harp in a group, from duo to 7 piece band, depends on the instrumentation, the singer, and what the band and band leader want from harp. Know their music and their interpretations. If you are joining the group at first and don't know what is wanted, play very conservatively or not at all until signaled by the leader. If the horn players are amenable you can play horn lines with them. If the guitar player wants to trade licks and have some jam interaction, you can explore that. If you play with the group on a regular basis you can explore the different ways you could contribute to the music and figure out approaches for the band and the songs.
I don't think there are specific rules for how to play harp as a supporting instrument. I think that you need to pay attention to the music, and work with the other musicians and singers to determine what they want from harp in their music. As a general rule, don't play harp lines when others are soloing, and don't play harp lines over vocals. Except for the times that there are exceptions to the general rule, when that is what is wanted by the band.
Some of the Chess recordings demonstrate how you can interweave instruments and sound amazing. Some Dixieland style recordings have clarinet playing behind vocals, and harp can do this, too.
Be aware that even if you are playing softly behind a singer and that is good with the singer and is the sound wanted for the music, if you don't control the board and your monitor is not properly set up, you may not know how softly you are actually playing. Any time you play behind a singer or comp while someone is soloing you are risking screwing it up. Be careful and be sure that the band supports you doing it. Ask for feedback and suggestions from the band after performances. Only do these things when the singer and band are good with it.
If I listen to a recording where the harp player pushes the limits of the role of harp in the band I can tell when it is working and when it is not by listening. ----------
In duo settings, the harp CAN be a little busier, I think, than in band settings. In Satan & Adam, I behaved sometimes like a rhythm guitar, just repeating riffs. "Unlucky in Love" is an excellent example of that.
I think it works to play nonstop, but ONLY if you've got a very keen sense of dynamics so that you bring the volume down when the singer is singing and bring it up between the lines. Little Walter does this really well, as does Kim Wilson in the Little Walter mode.
Sonny Terry, the great Sonny Terry, is, if you actually listen to what he's doing from the singer's perspective, a horrible offender. He plays nonstop, and loudly, right over the vocals. But he's Sonny Terry, and it works. (Although Brownie McGhee eventually got tired of his s--t.)
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Dec 03, 2015 9:32 AM
I'm loving this topic. Re. Sonny and Brownie, and at risk of being wrong, I suspect that their conflict built over the years as Sonny started singing more. I have a few recordings of them starting a tune then fighting over who was singing lead. As a duo, they are my all-time favourite. Sonny rarely gets in the way of a song with his harp playing from my point of view, although maybe from Brownie's point of view he did. ----------
@Tomaxe -- One thing that needs to be clarified in regards to the groove that needs to be pointed out and that groove is VERY important to EVERY music genre, and not just blues and rock and that alone comes from real gigging experience.
On the Sonny Terry thing Adam points out, in the latter years of when Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee were together, they both grew to hate each other and each of the would purposely do something to screw each other up and they refused to walk to the stage together, and much of that had very little to do with the musical side of things.
There are gonna be songs REGARDLESS of what particular genre it happens to be where the best sound a harp player or whatever the lead instrument happens to be is to make NO SOUND AT ALL, just flat out shut the hell up entirely and those are gonna be tunes where it's a showcase for the vocalist as well as the songwriter exclusively and there are many musicians who just don't get it, and this tends to be especially true when it comes to the open mic/open jam situations and when someone doesn't get a solo, their fragile ego takes too much of a hit for them to take or understand. Back when I started out in the 70's, the norm was often to do 4 sets, often with the rule of playing time being 40 minutes on and 20 minutes off, and you HAD to have a minimum of 10-15 songs per set, which meant NO long solos at all (often times just a single chorus) and have at least 1 or 2 tunes where there was absolutely ZERO soloing at all. There are plenty of blues recordings that have no soloing at all and having been thru that, it never bothers me not to have a solo.
I've been in a situation where on a gig, we were doing not just blues, but soul/r&b (earlier stuff) and some doowop and on a doowop classic by Jerry Butler called For Your Precious Love, what I was asked to do as a support was to play a chord outline, something that you might hear a guitar player do, but make sure I'm NEVER up front and as loud or louder than the vocals, and what I"m saying is this: the tune used classic r&b changes of 1-6-4-5, and to make things easier for everyone, in the key of C, what I'd be doing is the notes of the chord as an outline, the notes would be as follows:
Now, how a guitar player would do it is playing ascending until I got to the root note an octave higher and then play it in descending order.
On another doowop tune we did, a medley of the Moonglows classic Sincerely and The Dell's Oh What A Night, we played it in E, but what they wanted me to do was play mainly the vocal harmony parts in a chorded form (AKA double stops) and since the vocal melody uses Major 7ths, I used a country tuned harp (or back in the day before they became stuff you could buy OOTB, you did it yourself and called it a Major 7th harp), which made this work and when I got a solo, I'd basically do a solo with more chording/double stops like the way a guitar player in the days of doowoop would approach it.
Does it mean that you really have to consider the tune, the arrangement, the kind of groove and feel that they're looking for? Absolutely 100% yes, which means that it's YOUR job to adapt to it and often times that means break a lot habits that you've locked yourself into for a long time and to pull these things off, learning where everything is on ALL of your instruments, some basic music theory, getting your time together, TONS of careful listening to EVERY minute detail of every song you've ever listened to (and that definitely means listening to MORE than just the solos) and maintaining a personal internal memory bank/data base of just about everything you've ever heard from what everything each and EVERY single instrument on the recordings are doing because you may need to borrow approaches from them, which was something I had to learn and most harp players are often too hard headed to understand its importance, especially if their entire musical experience is doing nothing but trolling the open jams/open mics thing and learning these things help make you a helluva lot more valuable on the bandstand.
@hvyj -- That was what Muddy wanted, which was basically just flat out electrified country blues but played with much better time than country blues is usually played with. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Dec 03, 2015 11:03 AM
Actually, Carey Bell replaced Big Walter long before Sugar Blue did. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
hvyj "He said something about how Muddy would say that he wanted the harmonica to " hold up " his voice." I confess to being compelled to do this. I like to get underneath vocals so you can't tell where it's coming from -subtle harmony -but I only do it if I've already established the musical relationship with the vocalist. The approach is very sparing and similar to a vocalist who properly uses an octave vocal pedal. You shouldn't be able to tell where it's coming from but your ears like it. Dangerous territory.
Wow. What an interesting, informative and CIVILZED exchange of ideas. A substantive dialogue of this nature would not have been possible on MBH 18 months ago. Things have evolved in a very positive direction around here since the nazis and psychopaths have been banished instead of being allowed to run the asylum. We should count our blessings!
Thanks for the warning. Ya know, when the expression of original ideas that are the product of independent analysis that diverges from conventional wisdom becomes an object of derision due to an expressed belief that it is simply not possible to improve upon the conventional wisdom, it sorta reminds me of that Dylan tune about how at midnight all the agents and super human crew go out and round up everyone who knows more than they do. I guess we should take advantage of the opportunity for free exchange of ideas while it is still allowed to go unpunished.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 05, 2015 6:05 PM
An event planner posted a mash up from a charity gig I did a few weeks back. There isn't a ton of harp, but here is a few bars of support playing (with a rotary effect) followed by the tail end of a solo, then some fills. Then I am back to support playing the guitar solos over a slow blues.
If you start it from here it lasts just a couple minutes. There is another section where I am playing with a sax player much later in the vid.
On Saturday I played with a 3 piece band last minute. The style was Cajun boogie and blues. The guitar player was taking fills, so I laid out or played octaves with the chord changes at low volume. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Dec 07, 2015 5:17 AM
