kenyukan
2 posts
Nov 01, 2015
9:30 AM
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I've posted on another topic but most of the threads on that date back to 2009 and I've taken a tip from Pistolkat to start a new topic. Thanks also to rogonzab for his input so far. Here goes:
As a relatively new harp player learning my way through amplified harp playing I have a few questions for you more clued-up guys:
I have a green bullet 520SL CR -so high Z. This is cabled through 3 Lone Wolf pedals (close coupling), one to try and get some control on feedback, a delay, and a splitter that matches impedence of the mic. The first amp is a Lone Wolf Harp Train 10 and the second tube amp the splitter feeds is a bit of a hybrid but has a good spec and a nice fat sound. The Harp Train has an external cable output (jack to jack) to the Samson PA.
Questions:
1/ Do the cables have any impact on sound output? They are plain 3m and 6m guitar cables.
2/ Am I right in assuming that to eliminate feedback when it occurs I need to get the other guys in the band to turn down, because the mic picks up everything (though I did buy an in-line volume control from Greg Neumann to turn down between playing)?
3/ Can the PA be made to replicate the sound output from the Harp Train? Or will it have other characteristics?
4/ To avoid the fact that the green bullet picks up everything I'm tempted to try another mic. I know of an older Shure 568SA being sold (says it's high Z)so does anyone have any experience/views on this mic?
Looking forward to some interesting comments...
Last Edited by kenyukan on Nov 01, 2015 9:32 AM
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The Iceman
2770 posts
Nov 01, 2015
10:16 AM
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I may have enough experience to answer one of your questions...
2. Feedback is greatly affected by your proximity to your amp speakers, Volume/EQ settings on your amp and how things change when you cup your mic.
However, if you can get everyone in the band to turn down, the results will amaze you.
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The Iceman
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Littoral
1294 posts
Nov 01, 2015
11:38 AM
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3/ Can the PA be made to replicate the sound output from the Harp Train? Or will it have other characteristics?
Line out - so yes.
Band volume is a big deal. You won't have a have with that amp alone if they don't turn down.
Mic choice helps.
Cupping solid is an important technique.
Cables? Not much.
What pedal are you using to get some control on feedback/
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nowmon
46 posts
Nov 01, 2015
2:42 PM
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If you are playing in a place big enough you can get far enough from the amp and turn up that amp full tilt and get feedback that can be controlled just like a guitar,i have done it many times.60 w. music man 2x10 amp...
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shakeylee
419 posts
Nov 01, 2015
4:34 PM
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i will echo what other people are saying:
band too loud=feedback.
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www.shakeylee.com
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nacoran
8763 posts
Nov 01, 2015
5:24 PM
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Mic guy (and all around nice guy) Greg Heumann has a pretty extensive pdf that goes into a great deal of depth (and explains it for those of us whose electrical knowledge caps out at 'light switch go on, light switch go off'). I know there are issues matching cables, amps and mics correctly. My amp has two separate gain knobs and a volume. I know I can cut feedback by turning down the gain (and turning up the volume) and to keep the mic away from the front of the amp. An on/off switch or a volume switch on the mic is nice too, since you can get to it faster than the power button. There are some pedals for it, but usually it's manageable with simple precautions.
Here is a link to Greg's invaluable pdf:
http://blowsmeaway.com/all%20about%20harmonica%20microphones.pdf
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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SuperBee
2931 posts
Nov 01, 2015
7:30 PM
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The lone wolf Harp shield is a noise gate. it definitely has its place but if your mic finds the band is louder than the acoustic sound of your harp, it cant help you. turning up the 'sensitivity' (actually making it less sensitive)will just make life more difficult as you have to play loud to trigger the gate and lose all the dynamics in your playing.
It is helpful if you have an occasional problem with feedback on stage, from getting too close to your amp or moving in front of your amp or pointing the mic in the wrong direction. If you don't have a volume control and you need to approach your amp to adjust settings, it can be very helpful. If your problem is actually about trying to run your amp a bit louder, trying to keep up with the band, it wont help. There are pedals which can help a bit...i find the Lone wolf Octave pedal will give me a bit more cut
Some people report a difference with cables. I cant say I've ever been able to attribute any change one way or another, except if i had a very long HiZ cable run there will be some degradation.
other comments above seem to cover the feedback issue. sometimes you can find a sweet spot on the stage
Your PA question is good. It may very well alter the sound from your amp. quite likely, in fact. PA is just another amp, loaded with tone-shaping circuitry
Sorry, i don't know the mic you mentioned.
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Owen Evans
95 posts
Nov 01, 2015
8:42 PM
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Hey kenyukan I use a competitive small amp to your Lone Wolf. The line out of these amps has good things happening. What goes out to the PA sounds like what is coming out of the amp. The PA needs some tweaking to match your amp's sound. Here's a starting point. It should give you a huge sound with no feedback.
Settings on the amp will be Volume on 5 and Tone on 5 or 6.
You can use your own amp as a monitor if there are no monitors on stage.
Volume on main PA channel is at 6.
Lows are cranked up to 7.
Mids turned down to 4
Hi’s turned down to 4
No Effects
Monitors at 3.5 if you have them.
Hope that gets you close & then you can tweak the sound to your liking.
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MN
398 posts
Nov 02, 2015
3:22 AM
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I've said it before, but it bears repeating: Two things will get rid of a TON of your feedback problems.
1, Learn to bend notes while tongue-blocking.
2, Learn to overblow.
No, these two techniques aren't magic. But to develop proficiency at them, you need a certain resonance and breath control. And THAT will give you a stronger sound, period, whether TBing or OBing or not. The result, a stronger, richer sound going into the amp, and less feedback coming out.
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NathanLWBC
68 posts
Nov 02, 2015
8:23 AM
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1) As long as you aren't using complete trash cables, there should be no issue there.
2) Getting the band to turn down is definitely the best case scenario. You should have plenty of volume with that two amp rig for most situations.
3) It will not sound exactly like the Harp Train 10. We pull our line out off of the speaker tap of the output transformer, so you get the full tone of the amplifier, which is suitable for most people. However, you lose the tone of the speaker. So, if you love the tone of the amp and speaker pairing, you're better off mic'ing the amp if you have the time and gear to do so.
I hope that's helpful. Also, I don't know when you bought your HT10, but we made a slight change in the gain structure of the second batch to improve feedback resistance. We'll perform the mod free of charge if you cover the shipping.
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--Nathan Heck
Lead Technician, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
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kenyukan
3 posts
Nov 03, 2015
9:23 AM
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Some great tips here from you guys.
To Iceman and Shakeylee I'd reply that I'm amazed at how much guitarists turn up their axe when doing solos etc but conveniently 'forget' to turn down again. So the point is well taken.
To Nacoran many thanks -I've downloaded the file.
Superbee you are spot on about the LW Harp Shield. Keeping the knob anti-clockwise is best. The otherway only makes the sound 'stutter'.
Good tip on settings Owen Evans (a fellow Celt perhaps?). And in response to MN I think I'll have to grow into that one.
A good comprehensive reply from Nathan at the LWBC. Nathan the HT10 is an early serial # K-00007, a number James Bond would have been happy with. Purchased in the UK from Peter at Harmonicas Direct. Good to hear about the modification. I may yet buy another though at the moment I suspect that most of the feedback is from the PA. The problem is that no two gig venues are alike so without the luxury of a sound testing lab it becomes trial and error.
But you guys have given me plenty to work on.
Thanks.
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Greg Heumann
3120 posts
Nov 04, 2015
7:57 AM
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Finally getting my head above water after returning from blues cruise.
Here's the short answer - the PDF Nacoran pointed you to goes into much more depth.
Rule #1: The cause of feedback is needing more power/volume than you have.
Period.
Understand the relationship of power to volume - the decibel scale is logarithmic. To get twice as loud (10dB) you need 10 times the power. So when a 5-10W amp doesn't cut it, a 15-20W amp won't either.
When we talk about harp-specific modifications to guitar amps, or harp amps made by the boutique suppliers - one of the most significant changes is reduction in gain. This is OK because microphones couple to sound waves much more efficiently than guitar strings, and have higher output than guitar pickups. I'll restate my favorite analogy: Imagine you have a lightweight sports car with a 500hp V8 in it. Now imagine the gas pedal only moves 1/2". That's what an amp with too much gain is like - very close to either "on" or "off". To avoid feedback you have to stay well away from "full throttle.". Now change the linkage so you have 5" of gas pedal travel. Idle is still idle, full throttle is still full throttle - but the car/amp's power is much more easily controlled so you can actually get MORE useful power out of it. Not a lot more - Rule #1 still holds. But lowering the gain makes a harp amp much friendlier.
The mic's output and sensitivity (assuming a typical mic, properly connected) is far less important than the above.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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kenyukan
4 posts
Nov 04, 2015
9:20 AM
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Greg, as usual your comments stack up and I'm grateful. Does rule #1 go as far to explain why a 59 Bassman is so popular?
Though to be fair we play mostly in pubs where bands are normally too damn loud anyway. We aim not to be so 2x 8Watt amps plus PA ought to be enough don't you think?
I hope the cruise went well.
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