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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
On properly thanking people...
On properly thanking people...
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nacoran
8761 posts
Oct 30, 2015
10:39 PM
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I thought I'd repost this here. I'm not doing this in my official capacity. It's just one angry harp player. Some of you may have already seen it on Facebook. I've seen the guy's response, so I'm confident that this isn't a simple misunderstanding and that Brendan's side of the story isn't even really contested.
Here is Brendan's post:
Regarding David Kettlewell's book "Love of Chromatic Harmonica":
As one of this book's advertised guest contributors, writing like my fellow contributors for no pay, I naturally expected a complimentary copy after its release. Nothing came, neither physical hard copy or even a Kindle version. In the meantime I was asked to publicise the book via social media, which I did. I asked David Kettlewell to please forward my copy. He informed me that I and the other name players who have given their time and hard won expertise for his book would have to pay to get one for their troubles as his budget wouldn't allow it.
In my experience it's unheard of for unpaid contributors to not receive at least one copy of a CD or book they help bring into existence. I've been involved in several such projects over the years and that has always been the case, so I found his response to my request quite astonishing. I was surprised that I even had to ask! The book is nothing without the name players who gave their time and expertise to it, for free. Then Mr. Kettlewell adds insult to injury by expecting us to help him advertise it, without offering any of us even the Kindle version...
Unfortunately I can't give a review of the book yet as I don't have one, but the author's derisory attitude to the people whose names and thoughts give the book whatever credibility it possesses have tarnished this project irredeemably in my eyes.
Brendan Power
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Favors don't have to be quid pro quo. I'm not saying that. There is a certain satisfaction just in being able to help out, but when you actually contribute to a project, for the person to turn around a refuse to even let you have a look at the finished work without paying?
For the record, it's always been my understanding the publishing industry that a free copy was the minimum 'payment' for free contributions. Back when I was considering a career in writing in college I remember that most publications would offer up front to send you not just a copy for yourself, but a few for your friends. In the digital era when books can be as simple as sending a bunch of electrons across the net it seems even more like a no brainer. It doesn't look like this was arranged for in writing, but I don't think it often is, because it seems like such a minimal, obvious return.
On a side note, in all the time I've been reading posts on harp forums, I've only ever run into a handful of people who really made me stop and scratch my head. There are people who are bad at business who mean well but end up causing problems, and people who are scammers who have an effective way to part people from their money, but this guy seems to be neither.
Nate
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Nate
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Ian
130 posts
Oct 31, 2015
2:33 AM
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That's really bad. I wrote a book on my field of expertise a few years ago, at a time when I had almost zero cash in the bank. I had contributions from about 5 other people in the form of photos and some text.
Despite having no budget for it and no personal money I gave everyone a book and a case of wine.... wish I could have given more! (plus I wouldn't have dreamt of asking them to plug it!).... Plus, let's not forget... How much is a book? This guy must be crazy to not stick his hand in his pocket and cover the cost of a book for the contributors! Having seen his comments on the Facebook post he seems to value his contributors very little.
Last Edited by Ian on Oct 31, 2015 3:05 AM
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A440
476 posts
Oct 31, 2015
5:22 AM
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"his budget won't allow it"!!!
The fact of the matter is that Mr. Kettlewell can't afford to NOT provide books to contributors. Each book that he would "give away" to these high profile players would trigger reviews and endorsements, which in turn will stimulate demand for his book. Imagine if the book was out on Brendan's coffee table (or the digital equivalent of a coffee table) for a few weeks! If Mr. Kettlewell wants to sell more books, he needs to give a few away. Its not a cost, its an investment with a positive ROI.
And yes... it is also the correct and customary way of thanking the contributors. It is strange to not provide a complimentary copy, with a hand-signed "thank-you" in the front cover.
Last Edited by A440 on Oct 31, 2015 5:33 AM
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didjcripey
985 posts
Oct 31, 2015
5:39 AM
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What a tightarse.
What's book or a CD cost?
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Lucky Lester
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jbone
2065 posts
Oct 31, 2015
5:50 AM
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This follows when recording in studio with hired gun musicians. Every time I've gone in the sound guys and whoever else has always gotten a cd or two on top of agreed payment for services rendered.
This idea goes way back to me. A worker is worthy of his hire no doubt, but also any time someone contributes to a body of work, they deserve a copy for their own archives and to help them promote themselves.
Here's a sort of parallel: I used to wander the nation via my thumb. Many people picked up hitchers back in the day, and the trade off was often just good conversation, no payment was asked or offered. Later in life, when it seems safe and warranted, I have given rides to folks who looked to need one. But along the way a bumper sticker came along which I saw on many big rigs way back when: Gas, Grass, or Ass, No One Rides Free! Kind of mercenary to me but the point was taken. One could barter with certain people and get long haul rides, or go the easier way and take their time with the total "freebie" rides.
I do maintain, when it comes to recording work for someone, the giver deserves a copy. And compensation to be agreed on prior to work being done.
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kudzurunner
5726 posts
Oct 31, 2015
5:54 AM
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I agree with Nate's and Brendan's take and with everybody's frustration. I don't know if DK self-published this book or published it with a legitimate publisher, but in the latter case, there would have been a contract and one element of the contract would have been a stipulated number of free copies. Any reasonable author standing in DK's shoes would have asked for enough free copies to give one to each contributor.
Since the Kindle version costs DK absolutely nothing, there's no conceivable excuse for not, at bare minimum, sending one of those to each contributor. There are certain contexts, such as high-priced coffee-table books (art/photography, usually), where giving a free copy of the finished work to each contributor might be quite expensive. But that's just what you do.
Kettlewell's site is down. (Google Davide Kettlewell harmonica and hit the first couple of links that come up.)
Edited to add: Well now, after further investigation, I'm confused, and I very much hope Brendan will show up in this thread and enlighten me. The book as described on Amazon speaks of "interviews" with 20 major players; it doesn't say anything about other contributors contributing actual writing to the project. Brendan and at least one other Amazon customer have gone to Kettlewell's sales page and posted scathing one-star reviews; the statement Nate has posted above is identical with the statement Brendan has posted at Amazon.
Does anybody here actually have Kettlewell's book, and can somebody who does clarify what's actually in the book? Did Brendan and perhaps others actually labor to write sections of the book? Or did they simply sit for interviews?
This is an absolutely critical distinction. In my experience, it is NOT customary for authors--in this case, Kettlewell--to give free copies of a book, be they e-copies or print copies--to every single interview subject. That's just not standard practice, although it would of course be a nice thing to do. Interview subjects are not "contributors" in any formal way.
But people who actually write stuff and give it to the author-in-charge: they most certainly ARE contributors.
Brendan (or anybody who has the book): please clarify. Is this a book of interviews with 20 top players, or is it a book where one or more of those top players have actually contributed written articles?
Or--another possibility--is it a book where Kettlewell sent 20 top players a series of identical questions and asked them to respond in writing?
It's important to answer this question, folks, before sharing in Brendan's outrage.
Regardless of the answer, there's an important point here for all of us: when somebody asks you to participate in a project of this sort, TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF IN ADVANCE. At the very least, get the person in charge of the project to send you an email with basic conditions of participation spelled out, however briefly. That constitutes an letter or memorandum of understanding. Without such a document, however informal, you're left with--well, a mess:
Chromatic Harmonica Techniques plus some angry customers
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 31, 2015 6:09 AM
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kudzurunner
5727 posts
Oct 31, 2015
6:19 AM
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I'll answer one of my own questions: This is a DIY project. It's published on CreateSpace. So Kettlewell is doing this himself. It's out-of-pocket. There's no publisher, no advance money.
My hunch--and we'll find this out soon--is that Kettlewell didn't personally interview those 20 chromatic players, but instead sent them questionnaires and asked them to write up answers. For that level of investment of time and focus, I certainly think that a (free) copy of the digital version of the book (an e-pub or PDF file) is absolutely merited.
For that same level of participation, I'm not convinced that Kettlewell should necessarily have sent out 20 free copies of the print book. I'll rephrase that: I'm not sure that his failure to do that--send each interviewee a postpaid copy of the book--represents an ethical failure. But this was a negotiating point, which is to say, it's the sort of thing that any author would be a fool NOT to do if asked about it in advance, as a condition of participation. People make these sort of one-off deals all the time.
But the ethical judgment and the practical judgment aren't necessarily precisely the same thing. In practical terms, it makes absolutely no sense to refuse to send your contributors even an e-copy of the book--again, something that costs nothing--and, at the same time, hope they'll help you publicize it. That's just greedy, and foolish.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 31, 2015 6:21 AM
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kudzurunner
5728 posts
Oct 31, 2015
6:29 AM
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Actually, the situation is even more complex. Here is Kettlewell's clarification on his FB page:
"[T]he essentials are as follows...the 678 page book took 2 years to write (I wrote the book, contributors did not. I did skype interviews and then made transcriptions from recorded audio tracks, then edited same and sent for approval. The time contributors invested was the real time of the skype call, and the time to proof their chapter...both of which I appreciate very much. Two contributors did write their chapters, but they are not in discussion now, of course they were edited heavily, which is always the case with writing.) The fiscals on this project were severe to bear...the book took 2 years to research and write and in that time I had no revenue for the work whatever, and then were the costs to produce the book itself...paying for a layout of the entire book by a design firm and creation of the cover art, plus development costs for the various websites. This is an unusual book, having 27 contributors total, many from Europe and Asia. The cost to print and ship a book to Europe and Asia is about $50 per. I can't send digital proofs due to copyright issues. Nor can I control Kindle book distribution (I cannot issue free Kindle books) and I have no book inventory to sell. At no time was any contributor told they would receive a free book or any other consideration for their time other than being included in the book. Brendan was made aware of all of this. Some things that happened are not to my liking, but again, I am not here to criticise the book contributors. Am I to be faulted because I put all I have into the book, and don't possess funds to send gift books?"
So it's Skype interviews in almost all cases; the interviewees didn't write out answers. DK did the transcriptions--which take a hell of a long time. He put a hell of a lot of work into this project, all of it out-of-pocket. His own investment of time, energy, and money plainly dwarf the investments made by Brendan or any other individual interviewee/contributor. Perhaps that's something worth remembering as we rush to condemn him.
I'm intrigued by his claim that he "can't send digital proofs due to copyright issues." He owns copyright to his own book, surely, and can send a digital copy to anybody he wants. That's one of the perks of self-publishing. Surely he's got a PDF proof as part of the CreateSpace publication process, since he's publishing this as both a print book and an e-book. He could just send an email to each of his 27 contributors with the PDF attached. I challenge him to point to any passage in CreateSpace's rules prohibiting that.
He's right, though, about the prohibitive costs involved in giving each of 27 contributors a postpaid book.
Is Brendan one of the two people who actually wrote their own chapters? Perhaps those two people could be given a book.
But here's the problem: we all know how harmonica players are. If two people are sent a free book and 25 aren't sent a free book, you've potentially got 25 resentful harmonica players. I'd wish that on no one!
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 31, 2015 6:39 AM
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1847
2851 posts
Oct 31, 2015
8:01 AM
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so a quick search shows you can download this book for free
"most likely comes with a nasty virus"
i am not advocating anyone doing this. i certainly have no intention of doing so.
but to not give brendon a copy when one can be sourced for free.
is ludicrous.
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JInx
1114 posts
Oct 31, 2015
8:38 AM
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Brendan is out of line. Sure, it would be nice to get a free copy, but to go and trash the author on Amazon?! Missed opportunity to be the bigger man.
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Last Edited by JInx on Oct 31, 2015 8:56 AM
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barbequebob
3050 posts
Oct 31, 2015
8:46 AM
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Well, from a perspective of a musician who has done recording sessions, if you're not the "star" of the recording, especially on a major label, and you're a session musician, often times your name is not gonna be listed on the album liner notes and that's exactly just what happened to me when I did the session for the soundtrack album for the movie Fried Green Tomatoes and this is very common (tho I most definitely got paid for it minus the musician union dues).
Unfortunately, I never received a copy of the CD and so I wound up having to buy myself a copy of it at the now long defunct Tower Records store. Supposedly someone who had the so called "star power" in these sessions had copies they were supposed to distribute, but clearly I do not know if there was any truth to the effect, so I cannot say one way or the other.
However, even if they don't get paid, acknowledgement of input is always the right thing to do.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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timeistight
1885 posts
Oct 31, 2015
9:13 AM
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Brendan's latest Facebook post:I took down yesterday's thread on my beef with David Kettlewell over comp copies of his book for the contributors, because some of the comments were veering into fairly extreme personal attacks on him. That's how it goes on social media I guess: what starts as something limited and specific can quickly develop an unintentionally ugly side.
In addition many people were saying they would not buy the book in support of me. To clarify my position: David's book itself is not the issue, and I'm not asking anyone to avoid buying it. I'm sure there is lots of good stuff in there and if you think you'll like it, don't hold back on my account - that's not my wish or intention.
Ok , nuff said from me: onwards and upwards!
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kudzurunner
5731 posts
Oct 31, 2015
9:44 AM
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OK, that seems like a much more moderated position. Thanks for posting that, timeistight.
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timeistight
1888 posts
Oct 31, 2015
10:11 AM
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@kudzurunner: You're a Kindle-published author. Does Amazon allow you to freely distribute digital copies of your Kindle books outside the Kindle system?
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kudzurunner
5732 posts
Oct 31, 2015
10:57 AM
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My book is made available in Kindle format, but I'm a BookBaby author. That differentiates me to some extent from the book in question, which was actually published via Amazon. (CreateSpace is Amazon's ebook portal, as Audible is Amazon's audio-book portal.) BookBaby makes my book available to Amazon, iBooks, B&N, and a number of other e-book purveyors.
Regardless, as an indy author, the e-pub and PDF version of my book that were the final productsrespectively, of the e-publishing and print-book creation processes that I purchased from BookBaby are, as far as I'm concerned, my equivalent of review copies. So I am sending them out to certain specific people whom I believe will help me in publicizing the novel. Amazon doesn't have an exclusive on my book, as they do, I believe, in the case of the chromatic harp book.
I suppose the short answer is, I don't know what Amazon's policy is, and I don't care. But I'd be amazed if they think they've got any power over what I do with the files that I've paid to have created.
Now, if I started selling the e-pub files directly, via Tradebit, and undercutting the Amazon price--well, that might be a violation, and it's not something I'm interested in doing.
When I offered Mr. Satan's Apprentice through Audible, I was forced to choose either an exclusive deal, with a higher royalty rate, or a non-exclusive deal, with a lower royalty rate. I chose the former--and that meant that I had to stop selling the audiobook directly from Tradebit, as I'd been doing for about a year. So I've done that. I deliberately stage the selling in that way: direct sales for the first long run, then switch to Audible after sales had slowed way down. I do my best to play by the rules.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 31, 2015 10:59 AM
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Joe_L
2637 posts
Oct 31, 2015
2:01 PM
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This is nothing more than a matter of etiquette.
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florida-trader
812 posts
Nov 02, 2015
7:33 AM
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This entire experience is an example of you being in control of what people say about you on the internet. I'm not one who subscribes to the notion that "Any publicity is good publicity." In my opinion, good publicity brings you more business. Bad publicity costs you business. Consequently, I bend over backwards to please my customers because I want to be in control of which story they tell. It could be, "I bought something from Blue Moon and I got screwed!" Or it could be, "I bought something from Blue Moon, it wasn't right, and true to their word, they went above and beyond to fix the problem." Ultimately, my actions determine which story is told. Even in cases where the customer was clearly at fault, the only course of action that makes sense is to make them happy. It is a paradox. On the one hand you might think that it will cost you money to replace an item or fix a problem that was not your fault. But in reality, it will cost you a lot more not to fix the problem, even if it means losing money on the transaction, because you will have missed an opportunity to create an advocate. And we all need as many people pulling for us as we can get. Dave Kettlewell missed an opportunity to create 27 very influential advocates. The digital version is only $9.99. So for $270 he could have had 27 Centers of Influence promoting his work. That's dirt cheap and the return would have been manifold. I wish I could buy some kind words that cheaply.
Finally, just to make everybody happy, I went ahead and sent Brendan a digital version of the book via Amazon as a gift. It's kind of an inside joke between the two of us.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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WinslowYerxa
978 posts
Nov 02, 2015
2:04 PM
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Just to confirm: Page 4 of Kettlewell's book states: "Copyright 2015, David E. Kettlewell and Frederica L. Cohen" (his co-author).
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Winslow
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A440
479 posts
Nov 02, 2015
3:32 PM
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@florida-trader - spot on Tom!
Last Edited by A440 on Nov 02, 2015 3:32 PM
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Dragonbreath
71 posts
Nov 02, 2015
4:50 PM
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Well I just went to Brandans facebook and saw that he has a new and improved powerdraw in low F in stock, so I went ahead and ordered one. At least something good has come out of this.
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florida-trader
814 posts
Nov 03, 2015
6:37 AM
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Just when you think this story could not be more bizarre it has gone to a new level. Check out Brendan's FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/brendan.power.1238?fref=nf&pnref=story
Mr. Kettlewell is suggesting that Brendan is guilty of extortion and hinting that federal authorities might be knocking on his door soon. The things that people actually put in writing and create a permanent record of amazes me.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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JInx
1116 posts
Nov 03, 2015
8:33 AM
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Ugly begets ugly, keep it up!
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kudzurunner
5740 posts
Nov 03, 2015
9:24 AM
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I'd urge everybody to take a look at Kettlewell's email, which Brendan has posted in its entirety. I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, DK does indeed note several times that their beef is over and done with; that he's acting as a friend; that HE has no intention of charging Brendan with a crime. From that perspective, his email is one friend looking out for another.
On the other hand, if Kettlewell had not written the email, I think it's extremely unlikely that anybody, especially a law enforcement agency, would have come along and subjected Brendan to the felony charge (extortion) that DK describes. So by raising the issue of a POSSIBLE felony charge as he does, DK is, in effect, threatening Brendan, privately, with a kind of extortion. "Do everything you can to track down the jerk who seconded your now-no-longer-posted Amazon post with his own angry post," he says, in effect, "or you'll leave yourself open to a felony charge, a prison sentence," etc.
But this is where the situation grows even weirder. If Brendan had NOT made DK's email public, the whole you're-open-to-a-felony charge would have just gone away. Because DK said that HE wasn't going to raise it. But now that Brendan has posted DK's private email on Facebook, Brendan has deliberately opened the door to somebody, a third party, actually stepping forward and trying to get him charged with a felony.
So I share florida-trader's incredulity, but it's incredulity directed as much at Brendan as at Kettlewell. Why on earth make Kettlewell's private email public like that?
Unless Brendan does, in fact, believe that Kettlewell is trying to browbeat him with a baseless threat.
If it's a REAL threat--if Brendan is, in fact, open to the charge of extortion that Kettlewell claims--then Brendan has done a foolish thing, IMHO, by going public in this way.
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1847
2856 posts
Nov 03, 2015
10:08 AM
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two adults fighting over a "toy" quite literally LOL
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florida-trader
815 posts
Nov 03, 2015
12:04 PM
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So what you're saying kudzu is - the sword cuts both ways.
There's a good life lesson here. When you encounter someone who is crazy, just put some time and distance between you and, if necessary, let them have the last word if that will make them feel like they "won".
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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2chops
432 posts
Nov 03, 2015
12:12 PM
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As I commented on the fb post, I don’t think Brendan has anything to worry about. Let’s face it, the feds have bigger and more important fish to fry than a harmonica player. As odd as it is, this is a small potatoes situation.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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nacoran
8765 posts
Nov 03, 2015
2:30 PM
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I don't know how extortion works overseas, but it's usually, "Do this or I will say this". You could, for instance, ask for a copy of the book, get turned down and then say nasty things about someone and as long as those things are true you are still fine as far as extortion goes. The act that gets you in trouble is the threat in the middle, and even then you have a fairly wide range of civil options- you can threaten to file a civil lawsuit, for instance, without it being extortion. (You can't threaten to press charges. Actually, Kettlewell seems to be dancing very, very, very close to that edge himself. He is trying to make Brendan believe that a third party might press charges, but he comes very close to making the threat of pressing criminal charges himself. If you threaten someone with criminal charges unless they do 'X' and you stand to make financial gain from X you may yourself be guilty of extortion. He is allowed to threaten to sue Brendan, but threatening to press charges (by my reading man he is implying as best he can without coming out and saying it) he is in fact committing extortion. It's also worth noting, at least in the U.S., that private email, unless you have specific legal obligations, like a doctor with his patient or a lawyer with his client, is not really a thing- or at least it's complicated. It's been a few years, but I went to school for journalism and we went over the laws for recording conversations. In New York State you are allowed to record any conversation you are a part of. (Not all states allow this, but this is the federal statute too- so if the conversation takes place across state lines if you are a participant you are allowed to record the conversation. I'm not as up to date on email but I believe the same statute applies, and since email is sent across state lines from server to server federal law would almost certainly apply. (I'm not sure on international law, but I believe it's similar). Simply putting- this is a private email and you can't share it- has no meaning. It's like putting those fake disclaimers on Facebook saying Facebook doesn't have the right to use your content. By using the system you have to abide by the system's rules. So I'm pretty sure, unless Brendan at some point sent a threat, he can share the emails all he wants.
"The specific elements required to prove extortion differ between states, but the general requirements are that the offender maliciously (not mistakenly) make a verbal, written or printed threat with the intent to extort something from the victim or to compel the victim to do something against his or her will. Generally, it is irrelevant whether or not the offender actually succeeds in the attempted extortion. Once the threat is made, the offender has committed extortion. In some jurisdictions, and under the federal extortion definition, the victim does not even have to hear or receive the threat in order for the offender to be charged with extortion.
Extortion does not usually require that the offender threaten to commit a criminal act as long as the threat attempts to obtain money, property, or to force the victim to act against their will. For example, a threat to bring criminal charges or file a police report unless money is paid is still extortion, even though the offender may have every right to file a police report. By coupling the legal act with the illegal act of demanding payment to not act, the offender has committed extortion. Note, however, that a threat to file a civil lawsuit typically is not considered extortion even if that lawsuit is frivolous.
The threat also does not have to be directed at the victim. It is still extortion if the threat is directed towards the victim’s family or if it threatens to release information about some third party the victim seeks to protect.
Read more: http://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/violent_crimes/extortion.htm#ixzz3qT8KE2qY
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @FreeAdviceNews on Twitter | freeadvice on Facebook"
Also, I can't imagine any law agency pressing charges without a complainant. This guy seems to be off his rocker. (And in case he wants to sue over that, let me state that this is my non-professional opinion based on the information available to me, and point out that as a public figure (an author) that the standard for defense against libel/slander is that it is true or that it is stated as opinion.)
All that said, Tom may have the best advice of the thread-
"When you encounter someone who is crazy, just put some time and distance between you and, if necessary, let them have the last word if that will make them feel like they "won".
Adam-
"So I share florida-trader's incredulity, but it's incredulity directed as much at Brendan as at Kettlewell. Why on earth make Kettlewell's private email public like that?
Unless Brendan does, in fact, believe that Kettlewell is trying to browbeat him with a baseless threat."
Actually, legally, speaking as a layman who has read at least the U.S. definition, I would absolutely advise Brendan, based on the information I have, to publish an email like that, specifically because it does seem like an attempt on Kettlewell's part to make an illegal threat, at least if he believes that it might in fact be a threat. (but balancing it against Tom's advice too!)
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