Gary 62
20 posts
Sep 12, 2015
6:49 AM
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Aaahh! I decided to try embossing to help with the overblows and i think i've screwed up my blow plate. I overdid it and closed the slots too much and have had to get a small needle file to widen them out again. Usual thing now i wish i hadn't done it. Guys, can you relate to the way i'm feeling? It's the only harp i have so now i won't be able to play until i either fix it or buy new reed plates.
The next time i'll leave embossing and just tune my reeds and adjust the gap. Embossing is too heavy duty, for me at least.
You start off with the best of intentions and before you know it you've screwed something up!
Going to bang my head off of the wall for the rest of the day/week!
Looking at replacement reed plates do you think i should get them in another key from what i had? I have SP 20 in C but although i like that i really like the solo harp sound Adam gets with an A or a Bb. Would you guys get the C again or go for one of the others?
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Thievin' Heathen
600 posts
Sep 12, 2015
9:16 AM
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emboss-plink-emboss-plink-emboss-plink-emboss-plunk-Damnit!!!
Been there. Lots of intermediate plinking usually means I haven't gone too far, so..., I get 1 of the feeler gauges I/we build from cannibalizing the contents of 1 of those anti-shoplifting tag devices, and after putting a few laps of masking tape around 1 end to give it handle, I continually run it up & down and back & forth in the slot until I remove the over-emboss. They are stainless steel and usually make short work of brass removal. Also, molested metal tends to want to return to it's pre-molested state, so letting it sit overnight is sometimes recommended.
I have come from the back side with an Exacto-Knife.
If you did much filing, you probably killed that slot as in regards to high performance, but you probably aren't harpless.
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Mahcks
55 posts
Sep 12, 2015
10:03 AM
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Yep. I have a trace table and one of those magnifying headsets that I use for embossing. I still over do it sometimes, but it's a lot easier to fix with the right tools.
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mlefree
396 posts
Sep 12, 2015
10:29 AM
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Gary62 -
You haven't violated any forum rules so no administrator has spoken up nor are they likely to. But I feel that you have entered a "grey" zone in which it is the responsibility of forum members to do a little self-policing. With apologies to the site owner and administrators I'm going to do that now.
You only have one harp yet you are intent on overblowing? And in order to do that, you have undertaken customizing that single harp? Further still, as I recall from your previous posts, you've only been playing a few months. This inexperience is evidenced by your meager number of posts.
My friend in Harpdom, you have clearly gotten the cart waaay before the horse. There is an expression of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics that applies here: "TANSTAAFL," which translates, "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch."
My guess is that you are quite young, possibly under 21. Why do I say that? Because your forum behavior mirrors that of the image of a typical young person these days who "wants it all and they want it now."
Some things in life are highly valued because they take years and years of dedication and hard work built on a basis of inherent talent to achieve the level of excellence required to enable their creation. Playing a musical instrument well is one of them.
A player of a "short" harp needs to be highly skilled to be able to play his/her instrument well "diatonically," as it was designed to be played. That takes many individuals, myself included, a decade or more of dedicated practice, with the aid of all manner of learning resources and usually one or more qualified teachers. By that time that person will have accumulated a bare bones minimum of 6-7 harmonicas in good paying condition. Many times such experienced players have accumulated dozens of diatonic harmonicas of different manufacture or temperaments and so on. Moreover, it takes even those skilled players many years beyond that to play a diatonic harmonica chromatically, via either overblows or half-valving.
Most often you will find that it is those people who are at that level of dedication who are the ones who embark on the difficult process of customizing their own harmonicas. And that also requires a lot of study, accumulation of quality tools and yes, practice. Oh, and they usually have a junk yard full of donor harps and ~never, ever~ practice on one of their gigging harps.
Because you appear to be intent on circumventing the long, hard work these other players have gone to and go right past the meat and potatoes to desert, I am going to be blunt and write some things that you may find uncomfortable to read.
In your twenty some posts on Dirty South, I've seen you ask questions that have garnered the attention of many members who ~are~ at the level of skill and experience I describe. They've taken their valuable time away from productive activities to engage you in long and detailed threads. These players want to help sincere students of their favorite instrument. They have assumed you are at the level of knowledge and skill that you could actually make use of their investment in you. I have come to the opinion that they have been wrong.
As a result, I feel that you have crossed the boundary and are purely and simply wasting their valuable time, not to mention forum resources. I am now going to call you out on that. It's time you take a deep breath and resign yourself to doing all that hard work before you ask more questions from which you are not yet equipped to benefit.
At least that's the way I see it.
Respectfully,
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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Gnarly
1462 posts
Sep 12, 2015
10:40 AM
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Yeah, you should learn tech skills on harmonicas you can afford to f-up. Not your only working harp.
Michelle is probably right, you are trying to achieve too much too fast. Now you need a new harmonica--I recommend getting a set, if you are as enthused as you seem, having half a dozen keys will keep you entertained for a while. And then you can go back to playing Operation with your SP20.
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Gnarly
1463 posts
Sep 12, 2015
10:49 AM
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Michelle wrote, "Most often you will find that it is those people who are at that level of dedication who are the ones who embark on the difficult process of customizing their own harmonicas. And that also requires a lot of study, accumulation of quality tools and yes, practice. Oh, and they usually have a junk yard full of donor harps and ~never, ever~ practice on one of their gigging harps."
That's where I'm at. This started as a hobby, since I couldn't afford to have others perform harmonica customization that I wanted done--specifically, I was having Jim Antaki retune Special 20s to Melody Maker, and that started my tech career.
Fast forward a dozen years, and now I am the Suzuki repair tech. Be careful what you wish for . . .
As far as death by embossing, SOMEBODY can probably recover the harp--but if you are still learning skills, you might not be the right guy for the job. Better to replace the plates, as you say. Stick with C for now--but acquire the other keys when you can, each one speaks differently!
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528hemi
455 posts
Sep 12, 2015
11:19 AM
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@mlefree
I read Gary62 posts mostly from the "overblow" thread and it is apparent he is a beginner. He seems very appreciative of forum members responses.
Your post seems to be bordering on a personal attack. You are making assumptions of his age as well as making assumptions that other forum members are wasting their valuable time responding to his posts.
528hemi
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Gipsy
175 posts
Sep 12, 2015
11:38 AM
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@mlefree. Back off! That's way over the top.
As for meat and potatoes before desert! Perhaps in your world that's the way it works. In the real some peeps miss out those stages. Mozart was a virtuoso before the age of 10. Einstein came up with the concept of relativity with little formal advanced education.
Lighten up. I was always taught to always only say something if it was constructive. That can encompass criticism. IMHO your post goes way beyond that.
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timeistight
1861 posts
Sep 12, 2015
11:39 AM
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I was going to post this in your overblowing setup thread, but better late than never:
IMHO, you can't properly set up a harp for overblows until you can overblow well, because until you can overblow well you can't tell whether a harp is a good overblow harp.
Instead of wrecking any more out-of-the-box harps, you should save up for a custom overblow harmonica. And once you get one, you must resist the urge to tweak it yourself.
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nacoran
8682 posts
Sep 12, 2015
11:49 AM
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Mlefree, every person learns the harp differently. Some people get to overblows pretty early on. Personally, I wouldn't practice embossing on 'good' harps. I'd do it on busted harps or cheap $5 ones until I got the hang of it, but we each have our own risk/reward curve.
"You haven't violated any forum rules so no administrator has spoken up nor are they likely to. But I feel that you have entered a "grey" zone in which it is the responsibility of forum members to do a little self-policing. With apologies to the site owner and administrators I'm going to do that now."
What are you talking about? There is no 'grey zone' for forum posting here. If you had suggested maybe he'd taken a risk he shouldn't have, well, that's fine, but to suggest he is need of some policing and he is acting immature? Hemi is right. Your post is straying into personal territory. Gary 62 has been respectful in all his posts. He does not need a dressing down because he damaged his harp. The appropriate 'punishment' for damaging your harp is having to deal with a damaged harp. End of punishment. That's it.
Gary, we do our best to encourage new players. Depending on your budget you can mess around with good harps or bad harps with tinkering, and if you screw it up, eh, you screw it up. You don't need to be dressed down for it. Mistakes happen. Michelle, one of the things we strive for on this forum is creating a welcoming place for everyone. You are not doing that with your latest post.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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Pistolcat
856 posts
Sep 12, 2015
12:05 PM
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Edit: what Nate said.
Gary, everyone here have fucked up harps tinkering. A reed here a slot there... as I said in the other thread: play more, tinker less, don't get hung up on overblowing. Buy a new harp or reed plates and just get on with it :) get a YouTube channel and record yourself and post some here (though not too much). You'll get feedback that'll really going to boost your playing!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Sep 12, 2015 12:07 PM
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528hemi
456 posts
Sep 12, 2015
12:12 PM
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Gary,
Not to confuse you but take a look at powerbender tunings. Brendan Powers sells a 34 dollar chinese made harp that gives you almost a full chromatic scale with no blow bends,overblows or overdraws. If you like that tuning you could also buy a seydel down the road with a turbo slide to give you full chromatic. I am going to try this tuning. Looks very interesting.
Although most learning material will focus on Richter tuning. If you have a music background. the change will be easy.
Just food for thought. I am just looking into alternate tunings after 6 years but might have appreciated it earlier.
528hemi
Last Edited by 528hemi on Sep 12, 2015 12:19 PM
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Tyler
13 posts
Sep 12, 2015
12:30 PM
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Killing the slot is better than killing the reed! I've embossed and snagged a reed, bending it terribly. The advice above should help you recover. Keep in mind that a tiny instrument with a soft metal = tiny adjustments. Less is best!
C, G, D, A, Bb, F are a good set. E or Eb for the 7th.
Lessons and theory are usually for a C (mid range, no accidentals)
Many harp instrumentals and Adam's lessons use a Bb
Jamming with guitars in 2nd pos will often need an A, and plenty of instruction and instrumentals use A as well.
The rest are common too.
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Gary 62
23 posts
Sep 12, 2015
1:10 PM
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Thanks guys for the advice i appreciate it all and hopefully can learn from your experience.
All i can say in response to Michelle is: I'm 52 coming on 53 next month though i don't feel like it. Yes i get carried away when i get involved in new pursuits that i like. That's the case with the harp. I like it so much that i wanted to learn as much as i can and push things in places maybe beyond my experience. That's just my personality not only for harp but for anything i take up.
That's just me and i suspect a lot of the guys on here are like that too. Sometimes you do push things too far for your experience and abilities and suffer the consequences. That's life i suppose!
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mlefree
398 posts
Sep 12, 2015
1:55 PM
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Alright. I apologize to the extent that I may have seemed to mount an personal attack on Gary62. That was not my purpose.
What I intended to do was to reinforce the respect I hold for this forum and its knowledgeable and experienced contributing members. Nearly every question Gary62 has asked could have easily been answered by spending a little time using the Forum search function. They are all questions that have been asked and answered before here and elsewhere.
To me, eschewing the search function is showing lack of respect for the Forum and its members and that's true not only of Gary62 but anyone else. A little homework instead of re-asking old questions that have answered not only here but at various other resources is, well, lazy.
Further, diving directly into modifying his only working harp demonstrates a lack of respect for his only instrument -- or a completely unwarranted sense of self confidence. Either way, that seems to me to reinforce my position as to his overall attitude.
I do agree with you, Nate. This should be a welcoming place for all. On the other hand, I feel strongly that there is an incumbent responsibility on the part of members, new or otherwise, to use the forum's resources, including its contributing membership, most effectively. That would include not asking a litany of questions, the answers to which have already been answered many times before, and moreover, questions that have answers that the questioner is not ready to assimilate or put to use in the first place. That, to me, is like the person in a classroom who dominates class time with questions that could be easily answered by having done the homework. That person isn't violating any official rules, but, as a fellow student who ~has~ done her homework, I feel that is misuse of the classroom.
Not only all that, my advice to Gary62 was actually for his own benefit. He's a bull in a China closet doing himself, his learning process and his instruments harm. I'm certain I'm not the only one who recognizes that; I'm just the only one who's actually came out and said it. Unless he ~is~ the next Mozart, he'd do well to throttle it down for his own immediate good and for the future of his harmonica career.
In an interesting twist, apparently I'm the one who is disrespecting the Forum. I've apologized for appearing to attack Gary62. I'll watch my language in the future. But there is still an open question in my mind as to how frank we can get here -- even when a member is pretty clearly going astray in his thinking. I'm not ready to fall in line and say that Gary62 ~is~ right-minded. Maybe the bull must break enough of his own China to realize it himself. So be it. That wouldn't be necessary, though, if a few people would and could be open and frank enough to explain it to him.
Respectfully,
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Sep 12, 2015 1:58 PM
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kudzurunner
5650 posts
Sep 12, 2015
2:37 PM
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mlfree, I think you're holding beginners to too high a standard. Many beginners and developing players may not even realize that there's a search function. When somebody asks a question that has been asked before--and everybody has done this at one time or another; it's surely no sin, nor is it a sign of disrespect--I suggest that our reflex response should be either:
1) to answer the question, thereby giving members who may not have been around when the question was a last raised a chance to weigh in;
or
2) suggest to the questioner, without negative energy attached, that this question is a good one, has been raised before, and can be searched out using the search function.
I respond in both ways, depending on my mood. Sometimes I search out a few relevant earlier threads on the topic and post them.
Gary, my own feeling is one of amazement that you would experiment in that fairly advanced way on the only harp you owned. Not a good idea! All of us who work on harps have ruined at least a few harps. It sounds as though you've gotten a range of perspectives and some good advice here. Welcome aboard.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 12, 2015 2:38 PM
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Frank101
120 posts
Sep 12, 2015
2:51 PM
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I tend to agree with mlefree's posts to some extent.
But in Gary 62's defense, there is A LOT of emphasis on overblowing overbending overdrawing overwhatever on this forum.
It's easy to see how a newcomer might be misled into believing that overetcetraing is an essential part of harp technique, and that you're not a real player if you're not overwhatsiting. And yet neither of those things is true.
Maybe we need an Overblowers Forum more than we need a New Beginners Forum?
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Goldbrick
1104 posts
Sep 12, 2015
3:28 PM
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to paraphrase the Animals " its his harp let him do what he wants "
If you dont want to answer him or find his question childish-ignore it.
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Thievin' Heathen
601 posts
Sep 12, 2015
3:33 PM
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Gary, where are you located? Help may be just around the corner.
Oh.., I once had a pretty decent over-blower tell me that learning to overblow was sometimes more difficult for more experienced harp players. Nothing wrong with starting early.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Sep 12, 2015 3:44 PM
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mlefree
399 posts
Sep 12, 2015
3:34 PM
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Adam, I take your point. I suppose I am an "old-school" harper. I've been pretty deep into harmonicas for nearly 15 years (not that this makes me an expert by any means; that's why I continue to inhabit and participate in this and other forums). When I started there were very few learning resources that spoke to me. As a result I got used to ~having~ to ferret out answers to my questions.
That meant buying every book, pamphlet, cassette tape or scrap of paper with relevant information, organizing it all and mounting a course of study -- not unlike the scholarly approach to my medical research career. Glover, Musselwhite, Shackner, Tate, Gindick, Barrett and so on. Finding Harp-L was a new home and its archives a motherload.
Yahoo Groups came and went. It wasn't until later on that you and Ronnie Shellist made your respective amazing contributions on Youtube. Others followed, making Youtube the new motherload of live video tutorials. Now one must be pretty good at SQL (Standard Query Language) to efficiently explore it.
Most recently Dirty South has emerged as the liveliest Blues Harp-directed forum or email group. Like a blues harp bloodhound I'm hot on its trail and hold deep respect for what it has become - and what it promises. It has been around long enough to become a rich and extensive resource in its own right, both for its active, contributing membership but also for its ~own~ archives. It has the capacity to become the definitive place where interested people will for years be able to come to sift through the archives to answer an ever-expanding number of questions covering the depth and breadth of our favorite subject.
As a former career scientist I have deep appreciation for the wholeness, the sanctity if you will, of a database. A properly maintained database is of incalculable worth. I'm sure you would agree as a career academic yourself. From the viewpoint of the creator and manager of a patient database program at a major university hospital I know first hand that someone needs to maintain that wholeness. Once the database is allowed to become contaminated by redundant or mis-information, that sanctity begins to erode. That erosion, if allowed to expand, has the capacity to destroy the value of an otherwise priceless resource. Anyone who has Googled the Internet knows that difficulty. The new problem is not finding information, but finding unique, valuable information.
Mr. Gussow, kind sir, this is your Forum, your database. Gary62, I'm sure through naïveté and not design, was inadvertently diluting the database as well as the member's time who contributed to his threads. We're all thankful for Nate's time and benevolent perspective and I knew he wouldn't even remotely suggest that Gary62 do a little homework. I was trying in my own admittedly clumsy way to suggest to Gary62 that it would be for his own and the Forum's good to slow down a bit.
I may have stumbled in my presentation but I most respectfully submit that this issue is definitely something for you to think about.
With Highest Regard,
Michelle LeFree
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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Ian
81 posts
Sep 12, 2015
4:12 PM
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Hi Michelle, just thought I'd wade in here. Simply to clear up an issue that you highlighted I your last post. You mentioned your concern over the sanctity of the content of this 'database'.
I wouldn't worry....
This, being an Internet resource can only benefit from the long and frequently visited posts and discussions, even if it's going over old ground. In fact, just by replying to this post we have increased the forums visibility to search engines.
How dilute the forums searchable content become because of that?... well, it's a by product which can't be avoided unless you want the forum to drop off the search engines radar altogether.
You would have to edit the threads in order to clean up the content, which would invariably remove and reduce the content of the forum... Plus your idea of a useless topic may be very useful to someone else. Its all very subjective.
More questions, more answers, more discussions.... More search engine returns.
Oh and Gary. Bad luck with the harp mate. I wouldn't have attempted that myself. I reckon get a few sp20s (maybe C, A, Bb and G) , do some basic gapping, crack on and keep having fun.
Last Edited by Ian on Sep 12, 2015 4:20 PM
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Gary 62
25 posts
Sep 12, 2015
6:43 PM
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"Gary, my own feeling is one of amazement that you would experiment in that fairly advanced way on the only harp you owned. Not a good idea!"
Thanks Adam for all your videos. You're a big reason i'm getting into this. The solo harp one is awesome!
Yeah i think i got suckered into a false sense of security because i had done the gapping and tuning and stuff and that was fairly easy and the embossing didn't look too hard 'i thought' so...
I ordered some new plates so i'll get those and put them on as soon as i get them.
This brings up a question that's been bugging me about tuning: What causes a reed to go out of tune once you've tuned it to pitch? I ask this because i tuned the low draw reeds after watching one of your videos where you explained that 1 and 2 draw are quite flat a lot of the time on new harps. I checked mine on the guitar tuner and they were so i tuned them up. But after gapping and re-positioning reeds to improve the OB performance i noticed today while working on the embossed blow plate that my draw reeds were out of tune again on the draw plate. So can moving them to reduce or open up a gap cause the tuning to go out on them?
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Tyler
16 posts
Sep 12, 2015
7:18 PM
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Gapping usually won't detune, but can. Embossing can as well. Also, reeds are springs and want to return to their original states. For this reason, it's good practice to leave a harp for a few days after tuning and gapping. You may find that the gaps and tuning are not where you left them. A second or third adjustment is usually necessary.
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Gary 62
26 posts
Sep 12, 2015
7:27 PM
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Thanks Tyler i appreciate it. I was wondering, because after tuning the two lowest draw reeds and getting them perfect with the guitar tuner, why they were out of tune again and the only thing i did to the draw reeds was gap them nothing else.
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Pistolcat
862 posts
Sep 13, 2015
12:19 AM
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Gary - please see my response in the new manji thread! Tuning with a guitar tuner that way is not smart I'm afraid. The most probable reason of the one and two draw seeming flat on a tuner is bad intonation. That is, you are bending unwillingly ever so slight. Don't tune holes one by one. You need to check octaves and if you are serious: fifths. There is also a the question about temperament and compromise tunings. Tuning is really something one shouldn't try unless on top of things :). Try the forum search and go to Arzajacs site and check his VERY informative and easy to use algorithms. When you feel you are on top off that, understanding them through and through you can try tuning a harp that you think, while playing, sounds out of tune. I would very much recommend not tuning new harps that doesn't beats on octaves. And if you have a new harp with beats I'd recommend bringing it back as reclamation.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Gary 62
28 posts
Sep 13, 2015
6:46 AM
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Pistolcat: Ok i'll do that and study up on it. The question remains what does a beginner do if he buys a harp and the draw notes are noticeably flat like Adam says in the video? Virtually no one will know that stuff if they're a beginner. So do they just need to wail on an out of tune harp or what should they do?
When i tuned the low holes it really improved the tuning and it felt much better.
Thing is if you keep sending new harps back as not in tune you could be there forever until you get one that's satisfactory. I don't think many are properly in tune SOTB.
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mlefree
400 posts
Sep 13, 2015
7:49 AM
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Pat Missin has expertly compiled a series of documents and sound files that detail just about every conceivable aspect of tuning harmonicas. They can be found here:
Pat Missin's Tunings Page
Be sure to follow the first "here" link on that page and download his amazing "Altered States," a series of free text files that share the many, many "secrets" and tips about tuning that he has discovered through his considerable experience.
All serious harmonica players should become familiar with Pat's web site. He's one of today's foremost authorities on the subject of harmonicas. He knows them all, inside and out and shares it all eagerly.
One could spend weeks exploring
Pat Missin's Index Page
Just when I think I've seen it all I discover something new. Happens regularly.
BTW, embossing is covered as well.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Sep 13, 2015 7:53 AM
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harpwrench
1024 posts
Sep 13, 2015
7:53 AM
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Gary it's likely that your reeds were flattened from the tweaking they've received. All part of the learning curve.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
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SuperBee
2798 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:01 AM
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'In tune SOTB'
Embouchure and breath force, and condensation have such an impact, it's really asking a lot to expect a harmonica to play precisely in tune. I can make my harp play 20 cents sharper just by the way I breathe. I can play a blow note and watch the tuner dip lower as moisture condenses on a reed. I can play a beating octave and make the beating disappear by blowing harder...
If I can get my bent notes consistently within 15 cents of where they should be, I'm doing pretty well compared to many many players...
Harmonica tuning is a compromise, not just in respect of the intonation chosen for chords.
The manufacturers do as well as they can at the price the market will bear. Even if they charged a lot more, I'm not sure how much better gets do in terms of customer satisfaction.
Even some really great and respected players sound out of tune on the diatonic.
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Gary 62
30 posts
Sep 13, 2015
9:04 AM
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harpwrench: Who'd have thought this instrument could be so complicated? But it really is. It makes me appreciate the work of craftsmen like yourself Joe and the amount of hours of study, sweat and effort you've put in.
Now i understand why people go to a custom harp builder to get everything tweaked. To learn yourself is a long road i feel.
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Chris L
90 posts
Sep 13, 2015
9:45 AM
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Hi Gary,
Many of us have taken a similar path. It is a long process, but once you have some basic techniques under your belt there is nothing like a responsive, well tuned harmonica. I have no new advice but second the folks above who recommended:
1) you can probably use the steel shims found in the little store security strips in DVDs or Cd cases to gently reduce the embossing to make your harp playable again. 2)Pick up a couple of cheap breathy $10 harps and using guidelines like those on Andrew Zajac's website or Richard Sleigh's videos, aim to perfect them. If they survive the process you will have a passable, well tuned beginners harp you can foist off on your grandchild. If not, small loss. Good luck!
Last Edited by Chris L on Sep 13, 2015 9:46 AM
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Gary 62
33 posts
Sep 13, 2015
1:12 PM
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Thanks Chris. I worked a bit on the plate and got it into playable condition. Not as good as i'd like but enough to still be able to wail on it. Some holes are not as responsive or loud and the 9th is bad. During the embossing the 9th reed got a kink in it which i just can't get out. Every other hole is playable but that one is very inconsistent sometimes it sounds sometime not. But it's ok i'm learning a lot and everything's good!
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