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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Reed distance
Reed distance
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Tyler
1 post
Aug 09, 2015
9:07 AM
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I guess really quick intro - I read here a lot and have a shorcut in my browser to google 'site:modernbluesharmonica.com "(search term)"' which lets me find answers to just about all my questions. I finally have one I wasn't really able search and find, so I made an account. I play with a band that does mostly rock, with a bit of blues. According the Adam Gussow scale, I am advanced intermediate
I've been noticing that a lot of the recommended harmonicas, in particular for overblows and airtightness are "sandwich" style harps with no mouthpieces or recessed reeds. I've read here that the closer the reeds are to the mouth, the more responsive and greater control.
In line with this - most of the flagship models are this style as well (1847, MB, Manji).
Is there a general consensus that sandwich harps have advantages over mouthpieced harps?
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GMaj7
737 posts
Aug 09, 2015
9:21 AM
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Welcome to the forum...
Diatonic harmonicas - in general - don't have mouthpieces.
They have combs. There are 2 distinct styles of combs, but they are combs, nonetheless.
Reeds are not recessed, but rather the reed plates are recessed.
There is no evidence that either style is better for OB/OD.
Mastery of the technique takes years of dedicated practice and among the best OB/OD players are those who use both sandwich and recessed style.
A very large percentage of the harmonica playing population categorizes themselves as users of the overblow technique and that is because most confuse it with the much easier blow bend technique which is completely different.
That is probably not the case here, but for your own information, I have a fairly detailed - although incomplete - discussion of it on my web site:
http://www.1623customharmonicas.com/#!Overblow-Playing-OBOD/ccxy/5584460b0cf2a5839d8fef4c
Hope this helps
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Tyler
2 posts
Aug 09, 2015
10:58 AM
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Thanks for the welcome. I guess chromatic terminology crossed over in reference to extended comb (Lee Oskar, SP20) as mouthpiece.
I don't really use OBs much (6 a bit until I can get the technique mastered). Wise words that there are no shortcuts to mastery.
Taking apart the harps and noticing that some have the reeds closer to the front of the comb than others made me curious. Thanks for the info.
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nacoran
8613 posts
Aug 09, 2015
1:54 PM
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The reeds that are riveted closer to the holes are the blow reeds. The draw reeds the free end is closer to the hole. It's just about which way the air is flowing. There are things you can do to make your harp more responsive for obs, they mostly involve lowering the gap of the opposite reed, but I'll let someone who really knows what they are doing give you more advice on that. (I'm a squeaky ob'er on my best days).
That said, if someone were to reverse the rivet end on a draw plate and flip it over so that they were still draw reeds but they were lined up along the back edge, I have no idea what that would do to the sound. ?
As for recessed or tin sandwich, recessed, at least on middle ranged harps, seem much easier on the lips for playing. Higher end tin sandwich (non-recessed) have more sanding work done on them to make them smooth. I can get obs on both types (squeakily).
(edit to add squeakily)
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Last Edited by nacoran on Aug 09, 2015 1:55 PM
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Tyler
3 posts
Aug 09, 2015
7:01 PM
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I didn't exactly mean to start another "how do I overblow" thread, but I understand why it looks like it. Thanks for the pointers.
I've got my harps setup OK (for me) just with gapping and embossing (sizing). By distance I don't mean blow vs draw. More like the amount of brass and plastic between the end of the reed (rivet or free) and the mouth. Tone and control increase as the harp is moved further into the mouth. A few mm are gained with 1) a sandwich harp and 2) slots closer to the front of the comb.
I'm experimenting a bit and am looking for others thoughts. Since harp is 90% the player and 10% the instrument, I don't expect much, but I love that this forum dives into the miniscule to further understand the harmonica.
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SuperBee
2761 posts
Aug 09, 2015
8:45 PM
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thinking thinking...
i've never heard of any difference in performance being attributed to the distance of reeds to opening.
usually it seems if sandwich types are regarded as superior it is because of the matching of reed plate to comb. i recall ordering a custom Sp20 once and the builder advised me that unless i had a distinct preference for the recessed plates, i would be better to choose the marine band. reason given was that sp20 comb can not be depended on to be as airtight as a solid comb.
fwiw, i once had a strong preference for solid combs and most of my kit is this type, but its no longer something i really care about.
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arzajac
1667 posts
Aug 10, 2015
10:26 AM
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Hi Tyler.
I got the meaning of your question right away. I think it comes down to how relevant are all the small details. let's dive into the minuscule, ideed!
This is how I approach it: There are two forces that act simultaneously to play an overbend - in this case let's just talk about the 4, 5 or 6 overblow to keep things simple.
Air flow causes the reed to move. As flow increases, the reed moves with more force. An airtight harp will give you best control of flow which is important since you will need to have good control of flow to play the overbend.
Resonance also acts upon the reeds to influence the frequency at which they vibrate. In the case of the 4 overblow, you need to pair up the resonance at which the blow reed will stop moving and the draw reed will vibrate on pitch.
This intersection also needs to happen at a useful flow rate. If the flow is too low, the reeds won't move. If the flow is too high, the reed that stands still will be overcome by the force of the air flow and will not cooperate (it will move, squeal, etc...) (*)It goes without saying that the reeds need to be set up at least somewhat to play the overbow. When they are not properly set up, airflow will cause the reed to move and it won't stand still.
If the harp is airtight, the design of the harp (recessed versus sandwich) doesn't affect flow.
So, I beleive the question you are asking becomes "does the distance of the slots/reeds influence how effectively you can apply resonance to them?"
I would say usually no. Unless you put something in between your oral cavity and the reed chamber that affects the resonance (dampens, distorts, changes the pitch) enough.
Does the design of the comb affect how effectively you can apply resonance? Maybe. What about comb material? Maybe. But probably not to a significant degree - enough to impede playing an overblow.
(side note) I think you would need to use uncommon materials to notice the difference. Like would an overblow be more prone to squeal if you use a brass comb versus a rubber comb? I've never done that comparison but I have my suspicions... On a practical level, I have found a material that works really well and don't have the desire to use anything else.
What about cover plates? I think they can significantly affect resonance. Ever set up a harp to play they 4 OB and it plays fine with the covers off? And then you put them on and the thing squeals? That's because somewhere along the way vibrational (kinetic) energy is being lost. A quick remedy is to use a deep embouchure. The more you cover the top cover with your upper lip, the more you "soundproof" (for lack of a better word) the cover plate and prevent to loss.
Again, this is how I approach it. This is my model to explain what is happening.
(*) I think it does a huge disservice to promote overblows as a strictly advanced technique. It's false to say than you need years of work to play them. Overbends are as easy - of not easier - to play than bends. I think a beginner can learn to play overbends just like regular bends. The only difference is that out-of-the-box harps are often not set up for overbends.
Paradoxically, no matter how good your technique is, if the harp is not set up for overbends (or happen to be set up to impede them), they will be very difficult to play, control and use musically.
To put things into context, I think you can learn to hit bends and overblows in a matter of weeks if you have a good teacher and practice (scales) every day. But it can take years before you will be able to play the three draw bends on pitch and in a musical context. I think you can learn to play the overbends in a musical context - at least as passing notes - in much less time.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 10, 2015 10:27 AM
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Tyler
4 posts
Aug 10, 2015
2:09 PM
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Great stuff arzajac! Some of your older posts on similar topics prompted a lot of my questions and I was hoping you would drop by.
I love the bit about resonance. I find that I can tune my "self" with certain key harps/notes easier than others. This to my ear translates to a better tone.
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harpwrench
1021 posts
Aug 11, 2015
2:03 PM
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That distance difference isn't a factor in air tightness or overblowability. Will have to disagree about the 90/10 split as far as harp vs player. If it were so we'd all be playing 5 dollar pocket pals, because it wouldn't matter and most harp players are pretty frugal.
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