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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
why is it...
why is it...
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Gnarly
1370 posts
Jun 04, 2015
11:15 PM
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Specifically, I mean that a majority of the listening public can't pay attention to music without something to guide them--they just don't have any reference points.
So vocals help, there are words, and stage moves help. But it is my contention that most folks just can't sit and listen without tuning out.
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JInx
1032 posts
Jun 05, 2015
3:38 AM
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"Specifically, I mean that a majority of the listening public can't pay attention to music without something to guide them--they just don't have any reference points."
That is utter nonsense.The majority of people are music lovers and are sensitive to the same qualitative perceptions as you and me. Sorry but you're pompous
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marine1896
200 posts
Jun 05, 2015
3:45 AM
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"Specifically, I mean that a majority of the listening public can't pay attention to music without something to guide them--they just don't have any reference points."
I also disagree, even at it's most basic (harmonica) even an ok player doing a solo that builds to a 6 draw wail will get a positive response from an audience more so from an audience that is there to support a say a blues harmonica player.
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
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The Iceman
2490 posts
Jun 05, 2015
3:57 AM
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hey Jinx...
a bit over the top in your comment towards Gnarly.
Take a tip from marine1896 in how to disagree - check out his James Harmon/Harman response.
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The Iceman
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dougharps
925 posts
Jun 05, 2015
7:20 AM
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Susurrous love songs
Thrill cicada's ears
Buzz bothers others
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Doug S.
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hvyj
2693 posts
Jun 05, 2015
8:11 AM
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I've never heard a player who was capable of playing musically at fast tempo criticize the aesthetics of fast tempo playing.
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Adam Pritchard
76 posts
Jun 05, 2015
9:05 AM
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There's nothing wrong with playing fast as long as what's being played demonstrates musicality and fits in the context of the song. In my experience there are plenty of harmonica players who use prolonged periods of speed to cover up their lack of musicality. I personally like to hear a well chosen fast run or passage within an overall solo but if it goes on for too long I start to lose interest. Variety is the spice of life, everything in moderation and all that. Of course it's subjective and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If playing fast all the time makes you feel good and people want to listen to you then who is anyone to say you're doing it wrong? What's playing music for if not to make you and others happy. But don't expect it to make everyone happy.
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JInx
1033 posts
Jun 05, 2015
9:32 AM
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Oh yeah, that was over the top of me, sorry Gnarly. I've always been a defender of the mas market...its in my nature
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Chinaski
303 posts
Jun 05, 2015
11:45 AM
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Greg's response is about all that's required here.
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Gnarly
1371 posts
Jun 05, 2015
7:46 PM
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The folks I'm talking about may be listening but not really following. Kinda like me listening to rap music LOL
Yeah I'm probably pompous but at least I'm sincere.
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wolfkristiansen
363 posts
Jun 06, 2015
12:23 AM
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Playing fast, in time, is great to do and great to hear. Listen to Charlie Parker.
Playing fast, and losing the time, describes most speedy harmonica players. It's not great to hear.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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SuperBee
2641 posts
Jun 06, 2015
4:50 PM
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This is all very well, but what about the OP? We all know that music is not about merely playing notes, and that there is no musical merit as such in simply playing lots of notes in a short space of time. We also know that there most definitely can be merit in music which is played fast.
None of this is what the OP is questioning.
The question assumes that fast note-packed playing is more likely to draw criticism on the basis of the characteristic of speed/number of notes per second, than slow/note-sparse music is to be criticised on a reciprocal basis.
The original OP proposed this was because the critics of fast playing are just more likely snarky types and that fans of fast playing are more musically well-rounded in their taste. There is an undercurrent implying that criticism of fast playing is likely often sour grapes.
This is the discussion I saw the OP was calling for. I suppose the resulting thread could be seen to address the topic, as it is largely a discussion of the merit of fast playing and what is good about it and why it is not snarky to be critical of it when it is not good. Slow sparse playing can also lack merit, but it's slowness or sparseness is probably less likely to be the key factor which draws criticism, than is the speed and density of lamentable fast playing.
Thus, if there is something for the community to take from the thread, perhaps it is to be more accurate with critical assessments of tedious fast playing. Try to identify the specific aspects which irritate, rather than just the picking on the obvious note dense characteristic. Is it the lack of dynamic development, lack of pleasing timbre/prescence of thin tone. Is it the prevalence of poor note choice and disregard for harmonic sensitivity. Is it the sheer monotony of chorus after chorus of relentless delivery of a stream of notes which display a player's ability to play scales but relate little else except perhaps their alienation from the here and now?
Whatever it may be, I agree it's lazy to attribute one's dislike of a particular piece simply on the basis that it's fast and too note-rich for one's taste.
Ted is right to observe that people are more considered when criticising other work, and will indeed consider and remark on timing, harmonic structure, repetition, tone, dynamics etc.
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The Iceman
2492 posts
Jun 06, 2015
5:02 PM
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For me, one of the only fast notey player I enjoy is Sugar Blue. I hear ideas and lines in his style - not patterns, and his direction has surprises. He also will alternate with slower note choices.
The best way to describe what I don't like about fast playing in general is either the reliance on patterns (some of these players, when teaching harmonica, will teach and show patterns, an indication of where their head is in regards to approaching the harmonica) becomes predictable or else I hear the same fast ideas used no matter what the song or backing track is.
Once I get past the appreciation of the time spent woodshedding to spit these patterns out at high velocity, I find not much else to interest me.
Mind you, I enjoy musical lines that weave a story or surprise me more than any other type of musical approach, no matter what the instrument.
I understand how many enjoy John Coltrane's sheets of sound approach, but it just isn't my cup of tea - although when I listen to Coltrane play like this, I am constantly surprised at the patterns that he comes up with - as they seem to be unlimited in scope.
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The Iceman
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yonderwall
95 posts
Jun 06, 2015
6:58 PM
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As I think about this (mulling over the posts of SuperBee and The Iceman, above), I realize that even if slowly played music happens to lack originality in note choice (i.e., over reliance on well-established pattens), at least there is still plenty of room for added interest in the wide variety of attacks and other effects that are available to shape each note (ex. tongue slaps/pulls, dips, staccato, legato, vibrato, etc, etc, etc, etc) -- whereas rapid streams of equally recognizable patterns don't offer anywhere near the same number of opportunities for nuance to keep the listener interested.
Last Edited by yonderwall on Jun 06, 2015 7:19 PM
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walterharp
1641 posts
Jun 06, 2015
9:35 PM
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well.. this thread seems to validate ted's original point. the members on this board that appreciate slower, more thoughtful blues are willing to dis on the faster approach.. mostly based on arguments related to it is not my cup of tea....or.. when you play fast the player cannot get the expression i like
but none of those who appreciate the fast stuff have stepped up to say the slow stuff is boring, it is not my thing...
not saying in other places that would not happen.. the speed metal people i knew would say almost everything the people on this board listen to is boring and not worth a fart in a tin can.. to put is way nicer than they would
still, ted seems correct on this for the people who reguarly contribute here.
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walterharp
1642 posts
Jun 06, 2015
9:35 PM
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well.. this thread seems to validate ted's original point. the members on this board that appreciate slower, more thoughtful blues are willing to dis on the faster approach.. mostly based on arguments related to it is not my cup of tea....or.. when you play fast the player cannot get the expression i like
but none of those who appreciate the fast stuff have stepped up to say the slow stuff is boring, it is not my thing...
not saying in other places that would not happen.. the speed metal people i knew would say almost everything the people on this board listen to is boring and not worth a fart in a tin can.. to put is way nicer than they would
still, ted seems correct on this for the people who reguarly contribute here.
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Kingley
3883 posts
Jun 07, 2015
2:11 AM
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Maybe we're reading things differently. I'm not seeing anyone dissing fast playing per se. What I am seeing is lots of people saying that thing have to be musical and fit the song. Which would seem like pretty obvious common sense to me. The reality is that many harmonica players can play slow or fast and never be 'musical' or serve the needs of a song. One only has to browse YouTube to hear the evidence of that. A lot of harmonica players are quite simply atrocious and have no idea of using space, tonal variation, phrasing or rhythm. Regardless of the tempo of the song.
Personally I'm not really a fan of hyper speed playing throughout a whole song or gig. I find it becomes very tedious very quickly. I like to hear variations in tempo, groove, amplified, acoustic, light, dark, soft, hard, fast and slow during the course of an evening. I don't have a problem with anyone using high octane playing if they are using good musical sense. When they forego that though and simply stamp over everything and leave no space or work on no real theme. Then more often than not their playing simply becomes one monotonous noise from the start to the end of a song. Which to my mind is akin to musical masturbation and is about them trying to show the world how great they think they sound. When in reality they quite often don't sound very good at all.
However when a player using any kind of tempo plays with musical sensibility and creates tension in the music by the utilisation of space, phrasing and technique then it's a joyous feast for the ears. The best example of this that instantly springs to my mind is Todd Parrott. He mixes fast fluid single note runs, with soulful phrasing and use of dynamics, exemplary note selection. This not only creates tension within the music he plays, but it also creates an organic feel to the music and gives it a more three dimensional character. Something which many players (fast or slow) seem unable to utilise in similar fashion. Another great example of this same mindset is Dennis Gruenling. I feel that as players, musicians, artists, performers or whatever you choose to call yourself. That we can all learn a great deal about being musical in our playing by listening to Dennis and Todd and trying to incorporate those same sensibilities into our playing, regardless of what speed, style or genre of music we play.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 07, 2015 2:13 AM
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yonderwall
96 posts
Jun 07, 2015
5:07 AM
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walterharp, I think that Kingley is right, and you are seeing attacks on speed playing where none are present. My post, for example, was an attempt to address SuperBee's point that we should provide specifics to back our statements.
Personally, I happen to love fast playing and lots of notes (harp, metal guitar, and opera, for that matter -- reread my quote back on page 1 of this thread). I am just trying to point out aspects of such playing that, unless thoughtfully addressed, can rapidly lead to a tedious and boring set.
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marine1896
207 posts
Jun 07, 2015
5:08 AM
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"...rapid playing, as a method, attracts snark and dismissals while sparer playing , as a stylistic preference, generally recieves no such insults. No one complains that Lee Oskar or BB King play too slow or not enough notes."
I feel this is the old guitar wanking argument being applied here on a harmonica forum. Like folk saying for the sake of my one finger typing that Alvin Lee was just John Lee Hooker speeded up but noodling and there are tons of other examples of fast players playing over basically a band playing standard/contemporary and or traditional blues, it might be a different or more accepted practice if a fast player was playing with a similarly fast and innovative band but more so it is not the case and that I think is where a lot of snark comments come in. It is also a reflection on the evolution of the harmoninca in blues. For me I reckon you will always get the trad players like Rod, Kim etc. that will want to preserve and cherish that style of blues and then there will be all those cat's from Madcat, Howard, Sugar Blue, JR and Carlos to an extent who will play a more blues INSPIRED approach but pushing the form and familiar patterns into relatively new territory like they are now. We have yet to see the Clapton of harmonica to bridge the gap to the mainstream but in all honesty those days of musician worship are gone for now and the foreseeable future.
As for musicality of course it's there but it's always going to be in the ear of the beholder how many friends, relatives, partners or spouses have you let hear say Sonny Boy and they look at you as if they are eating a raw lemon??? It's all about personal taste and yeah some of the fast palyers are not my taste but I get what they do and marvel at some of it but it's all good and I hate to be negative especially when I know the amount of practice that goes into learning all there is about playing harmonica properly.
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Last Edited by marine1896 on Jun 07, 2015 5:09 AM
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The Iceman
2494 posts
Jun 07, 2015
6:49 AM
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"the members on this board that appreciate slower, more thoughtful blues are willing to dis on the faster approach.. mostly based on arguments related to it is not my cup of tea....or.. when you play fast the player cannot get the expression i like"
Not seeing "dis" in the responses, just opinions. not my cup of tea or cannot get the expression I like are valid comments.
Since I have an ear and brain that follows (and analyzes) all music and solos contained within, I find that the faster approach without breathing spaces between ideas is like listening to someone talk at me non-stop - after a short while, my brain short circuits and I can't hear anything but white noise.
How about the other side of this coin?
Those that love high velocity/fast harmonica playing..
What is it that you find so compelling and wonderful about this style? (examples, please?)
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 07, 2015 7:15 AM
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JInx
1034 posts
Jun 07, 2015
10:48 AM
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Music is either good or bad to some degree, for each listener. For me, musical diarrhea is some of the most obnoxious. Antonio Carlos Jobim and Newton Mendonca seem to relate this sentiment in their hit song One Note Samba.
This is just a little samba
Built upon a single note
Other notes are sure to follow
But the root is still that note
Now this new note is the consequence of the one we've just been through
As I'm bound to be the unavoidable consequence of you
There's so many people who can talk and talk and talk
and just say nothing or nearly nothing
I have used up all the scale I know and at the end I've come
to nothing I mean nothing
So I come back to my first note as I must come back to you
I will pour into that one note all the love I feel for you
Any one who wants the whole show show do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ci-do
He will find himself with no show better play the note you know
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Last Edited by JInx on Jun 07, 2015 11:34 AM
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nacoran
8508 posts
Jun 07, 2015
12:22 PM
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One thing no one seems to have hit on is if you are playing a faster tune you are go through the base riff you've got faster. I've got a song I sing. When we first put it to music we put it over this slow aching sort of melody. It was a stupid simple riff, but it was slow, so it only got repeated a few times, and it was melodic. As our set evolved it didn't fit as well with the direction we were headed (and the bass part was so simple it was boring the bass player to tears). I still like the old version and intend to get a good tracked recording down sometime, but we redid it as a punk song. It went from 3 minutes to about a minute and a quarter. If we tried to stretch that melody out to the original 3 minutes we'd have to come up with tons of variations to keep it interesting, but played slow it worked fine (but just didn't fit the sound we are going for now).
That's a risk you take when you play fast. You can have the same number of interesting ideas as the guy playing slow, but you are going to run out of ideas faster.
There is also a risk, since it's easier to play fast on the upper register, that you are going to end up fatiguing people's ears on the pitch front as well.
But there is a certain energy that comes with playing fast. It's appealing to a different emotion and some crowds are looking for that. That said, even in the metal category, the bands that get crossover appeal play some ballads as well.
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Nate
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Danny Starwars
213 posts
Jun 07, 2015
3:35 PM
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Yeah, not seeing dissing so much either; maybe there's a bit of (very slight) over-sensitivity on both sides (as there often is with issues that can end up polarizing people.)
Perhaps too it's harder to diss the slower more traditional playing because without it, what do you have? If somehow you could eliminate all the speed playing and shredding that's ever happened, what are you left with in the recorded history of Blues harmonica? Quite a lot. A huge amount.
But if you left all the faster playing and deleted from the historical record all the slower more traditional approaches to blues harp playing, what would you lose? Quite a lot. A huge amount.
This bit will come out wrong, but perhaps the faster, more modern style of playing is like the icing on the cake: who DOESN'T want the icing? It's delicious! But you still need the cake.
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Last Edited by Danny Starwars on Jun 07, 2015 7:36 PM
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didjcripey
896 posts
Jun 07, 2015
5:37 PM
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@Iceman: if you're 'not seeing dis in the responses', you're probably not looking very hard. In this and other threads, fast playing has been compared to musical diarrhoea; idiots sitting round after having some 'blow' with everything and nothing to say; speedy harmonica players generalised as 'playing fast and losing the time' and so on.
These are opinions, of course, to which we are all entitled, but if my opinion of someones art was derogatory and I expressed it in such a way, that would be dissing them.
I have yet to see on this forum people like Ted or Jason refer to slow or traditional players as having musical constipation, or being so sedated with valium that they have nothing to say and no ability to express it. I think the OP is a valid premise.
Personally I don't especially listen to or enjoy speed playing much, even when its good. I think this is for two reasons.
Firstly, as someone not overly confident in his abilities who compares himself with other players, I find it intimidating to see that level of technical mastery.
I would love to be able to play as fast as Ted or Jason, but not having the years behind me or the motivation for compulsive speed practice, it aint gonna happen.
If I were able to, I wouldn't play fast all the time, (I'm a pretty laid back sort of guy) but neither do people like Pat Ramsey or Jason who does some awesome slow blues and swing (such as 'Blues Penitentiary' or 'Down at the Juke')
Secondly I find that fast playing requires more concentration and focus to listen to properly, and I am basically too lazy to put in the effort. I suspect that many who do play and enjoy the fast stuff have mental processes and musical sensibilities much faster than mine. Often I find I can't listen or think that fast.
To each his own, and I have respect for all styles of musical expression.
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Lucky Lester
Last Edited by didjcripey on Jun 07, 2015 11:44 PM
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