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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Can White People Play the Blues ?
Can White People Play the Blues ?
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nacoran
8514 posts
Jun 11, 2015
12:04 PM
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Timeistight, you need to break that word into pieces. Blueshammer can be read as blues hammer or blue shammer
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Nate
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Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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Joe_L
2617 posts
Jun 11, 2015
12:25 PM
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Blues Hammer - That shit never gets old!
After listening to Andrew Gomes and Joe Bonamassa on another thread, these Blues Hammer guys are pretty damn deep sounding.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Jun 11, 2015 12:36 PM
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KingoBad
1649 posts
Jun 11, 2015
7:18 PM
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Ha! Too true Joe...
And great hello!
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Danny
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Joseph Scott
2 posts
Jun 13, 2015
10:59 AM
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The idea that light-hearted lyrics could be used in quote "blues" material was apparently popularized more by George Norton -- "Memphis Blues" 1913 -- than anyone else. (Folk blues researcher Abbe Niles, born in 1894, wrote in 1926 that he couldn't think of any happy blues lyrics that were of folk origin.) In the decades after the 1910s, light-hearted blues material was routinely _accepted_ by whites.
In contrast, back as of about 1906, blues music was sad music by black folk musicians who were poor. That's what the evidence shows. (That earliest era is supposedly vital to Harris; he can use it to argue that blues _is_ black, in some supposedly essential way, since the musicians making blues back then were overwhelmingly black, as opposed to about 1916 when lots of white people, such as Southern guitarists, were already interested in blues music.) When Harris writes "Mainstream white America (and many Black people) has typecast the blues as the sad music of broke down old Black folk," it's difficult to understand quite what he's trying to complain about, given that blues _was_ sad folk music by poor black people before Norton and others popularized changing it to happy music, and Norton was white, and Norton's happy lyrics to "Memphis Blues," e.g., _were_ accepted by white mainstream culture. And difficult to believe that he knows all that much about blues history. And according to him "the history" is really important.
If blues music is "essentially" black because the people making blues music in about 1906 were overwhelmingly black, then why isn't blues music also "essentially" sad music, too?
Alternatively, we could notice that things being "essentially" anything is a pretend idea, and when Howlin' Wolf taught himself to sing a lot like Charlie Patton or Billie Holiday taught herself to sing a lot like Bessie Smith (rather than just singing like themselves, as Harris recommends whites do, when he isn't off singing in a pretend Jamaican accent), the results were music that is subject to people's subjective personal tastes -- tastes that some guy born in Colorado in 1969 is not somehow the boss of.
Last Edited by Joseph Scott on Jun 13, 2015 11:24 AM
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SuperBee
2661 posts
Jun 13, 2015
4:20 PM
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It surprises me that people take issue with what Mr Harris has written. Sure, maybe it's not a perfectly consistent stream of logic, but I can't see anything wrong with what he says. Obviously, I see it much the same way. I didn't begin to even think about until I was well into my 40s and had been consciously digging 'Blues' for over 25 years despite not being conscious of what it was and just shallowly buying the hype about the roots of rocknroll (because rocknroll was unquestionably culturally valid, which made it legit to check out the blues as the roots thereof, and own blues too, I guess)
Anyway...I think he is right and I don't see the controversy. His point about culture is fine. I enjoy rembetika and fado; nothing prevents me from performing in those traditions but no one is ever going to consider I'm representing my own culture thereby, and that the culture which gave rise to the music is irrelevant due to me knowing what it's like to be a displaced person, or because I come from a place which had a maritime culture in the early 19th century.
As far as I can see, that is the nub of Mr Harris' message; the black origin of blues music is not irrelevant. And messages such as 'not black, not white, just blues' annoy him, because blues IS black music, dammit! And white people aren't 'keeping the blues alive', because music doesn't work that way. Black people have largely moved on but the blues is still part of THEIR musical heritage. And sure, I take the point that white people also participated in creating popular music in the blues form which influenced the development of the popular form, but seriously, does anyone think that makes a legitimate claim for blues as a white folk music tradition? Please, there may be some songs or even a whole branch of music, but there can be no dispute that the blues folk style is rooted in African music and is overwhelmingly associated with African-American culture.
Anyway, IMHO folks are getting their knickers in a twist about not much here. Corey Harris asserts that blues is black music. I agree. Fado is Portuguese music. (Not Portuguese, not Euro, just Fado). Mariachi is Mexican music. Etc. anyone can love it, anyone can play it, but don't claim its cultural background is insignificant.
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SuperBee
2662 posts
Jun 13, 2015
4:38 PM
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I should add, the reason I wrote above post is that I just got around to reading the article referred to in the OP. That article has nothing to say about whether white people can play blues, other than of course they can and its a good thing, but it doesn't change the fact that blues music is culturally, historically black music. There are a lot more words, but that is the point of his article. I didn't see much anger in the piece, and I didn't see any justification for twisting it into an excuse to attack Corey Harris, not even in self-defence. Or in defence of white performers he may seem to have dissed by relating some anecdote.
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Fil
53 posts
Jun 13, 2015
6:33 PM
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Perhaps the whole discussion has become tedious and pedantic.
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Phil Pennington
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timeistight
1786 posts
Jun 13, 2015
6:52 PM
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Great post, Superbee. That needed to be said.
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SuperBee
2665 posts
Jun 13, 2015
6:54 PM
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Oh, really (Edit: Fil)? I was just starting to get into it...
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jun 13, 2015 8:01 PM
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ted burke
280 posts
Jun 13, 2015
7:23 PM
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Tedious? There are three pages of posts that indicate otherwise. Pedantic? There's nothing wrong with that, as long as passion, knowledge and insight inform the discussion. What I've read here for the most part more than lives up to my 3 requirements.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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ted burke
282 posts
Jun 14, 2015
6:38 AM
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"Apparently there's a fourth requirement...pontification"
Well now, that's gratuitous , isn't it Phil? If you find this discussion tedious and pedantic, you can relieve your displeasure by ignoring the thread and finding something worthy of your attention span.----
Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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ted burke
284 posts
Jun 14, 2015
6:59 AM
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"I rest my case."
Giving it a rest is a great a idea, Phil.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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marine1896
232 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:00 AM
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As Ted Burke has indicated this is a subject not to be taken lightly and is worthy of discussion and if anyone here feels it is tedious, pedantic or whatever then give it a skip, toddle on, walk on by.... one of the most important music genres full stop, deserves 3 or more pages!
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
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Fil
57 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:32 AM
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Ted, you're right, as is marine1896. I should move on. Don't misinterpret my comment as disrespect for the music, its origins, history, whatever. I respect and appreciate the music. I wouldn't waste my time with it or with this forum if I didnt. Can white people play the blues? Yes. Can white people play the blues with feeling and authenticity? Yes. Has blues music evolved past, perhaps way past, the early and mid 20the century when black blues folks 'owned' the blues? Yes. The fact, at least my fact, is that while one cannot really do today's blues without appreciating and crediting it's origin, one does not need to get hung up on it. It's music. Giving it some deep and profound meaning makes for interesting academic-like
discussion up to a point. Beyond that point, which maybe was reached by me too soon for some, I think it becomes a bit patronizing to (?) that tragic history. It can take the fun, joy, out of the music. I've built up a list of close to 1000 blues tunes on my iPod. Some sad, some profound, some old time, some new. Some make me think, most make me happy and challenged to get better and more creative with my own admittedly intermediate level of play. Ain't never going to be great, but getting hung up on can white people play the blues, however Harris meant the question, surely isn't going to help me.
So, Ted, I apologize for my snark, broke my own rule. Hopefully, this comment may be seen as a bit more constructive, though surely you and marine may disagree.
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Phil Pennington
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Honkin On Bobo
1326 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:46 AM
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Talk about being spectacularly wrong. A handful of posts in I expressed a heartfelt hope that this thread would die a quick death. Ha! A quick review shows more posts here than any other thread in the last 15 pages, with the exception of the "where are you from" thread.
I figured this topic had been kicked around from every conceivable angle. Absolutely nothing new to be said. Apparently, the pontificators (right on Fil) have an inexhaustable supply of fuel for this topic.
As for my own approach, I was at my local record shop on Saturday. The Blues bin had couple of Corey Harris CDs. I laughed to myself. i wouldn't have accepted a free one. He's on my won't listen to list, well unless trapped in an elevator. Sugar Blue's there too, for some remarks he made at a symposium where he said the blues were by, of and for black people. Hey, I take them at their word. There's plenty of great musicians out there to enjoy and learn from, white and black, who aren't running around with a chip on their shoulder, race-baiting and challenging people's authenticity or ability to understand, or perform the blues.
As for the bloviators....have at it lads.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jun 14, 2015 7:53 AM
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marine1896
235 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:52 AM
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@Fil; Hey man, nothing wrong with your last post at all that's all fair comment. For a guy like me I've read lot's on the subject and watched lot's since I discovered blues music in the 80's I've also spent a small fortune on LP' and CDs (combined getting near 3000 and still buying) books, magazines, memorabilia...my choice it has never waned with me it has also opened my ears to classic R&B, Doo-Wop, Soul,Zydeco and Be-bop etc. hundred's upon hundred's of artists! This subject like the listening to the actual music and all its branches never, ever get's boring to me!
To each their own.
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Last Edited by marine1896 on Jun 14, 2015 7:58 AM
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Rontana
108 posts
Jun 14, 2015
7:55 AM
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Extremely well said, Fil. There are others (or at least one other) who agree with your points.
Further, it's my belief that your opinion on the topic is equally as valid as the opinions of those advising you to zip lip and move on. However, the dogmatic nature of political correctness does not welcome dissent that cuts against a prevailing sentiment.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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marine1896
236 posts
Jun 14, 2015
8:21 AM
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Honkin On Bobo; Well, for whatever your reasons, you felt irked enough to come back on topic and comment or was that bloviate?!
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
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Joe_L
2621 posts
Jun 14, 2015
9:10 AM
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Well, I don't know Corey Harris, but I read his blog entry. I'm white and I wasn't offended by it.
I have read all of the interviews with Sugar Blue that have offended white people. I never understood why his thoughts rubbed people the wrong way. Apparently, his comments didn't bother his wife. She's Caucasian. I have met him several times. He isn't the most friendly person that I've ever met, he has always been fairly pleasant.
He's opinionated and outspoken. Some people have a real problem with black people who have those personality traits. I do not.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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RSleigh
9 posts
Jun 16, 2015
7:40 AM
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Yes.
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