HarpNinja
4017 posts
Feb 09, 2015
7:27 AM
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For those interested in custom harps, are any of you interested in steel Seydels?
Would you be more likely to buy a ready-to-ship blues harp/workhorse or ready-to-ship overbend harp?
Would you prefer an 1847 or Session Steel?
What keys would be most important to you?
What would be your realistic price point for a workshorse harp?
I am NOT soliciting orders for Hohner custom harps, but would like to sell completed harps (Hohner and Seydel) to the public as I complete them with next day shipping. I know my Hohner builds move very quickly (usually I don't even need to post the Hohners to the public), but am getting a read on the demand for Seydel. Thanks!
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Feb 09, 2015 10:23 AM
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harpcrab
97 posts
Feb 09, 2015
9:24 AM
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OK, I'll play- I "think" I'd be very interested in a workhorse session steel. I just received my first session steel last week and really, really like it (other than the color of the comb). Minimal gapping is all it needed. My question would be, how much better would it be "set up" for an intermediate type player? OOTB it's already one of my better playing harps (I have a couple dozen various brands).I've yet to order a custom harp but think I'm ready to try one.
Thanks for any input you may have.
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Bluesharp- If you don't blow you suck...
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HarpNinja
4018 posts
Feb 09, 2015
9:46 AM
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It would be more airtight and responsive...would probably have a black comb instead of orange. The level to which it is improved is relative to the labor.
Hence the question of price point.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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zackattack
25 posts
Feb 09, 2015
9:57 AM
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I'll put in my two cents - I retired my Hohners, Huangs and LO's for Seydel over the last two years, with about 24 Seydel harps in my case in various OOTB configurations. The Session Steel models are fantastic OOTB and, as an intermediate player, I find them playable without modifications. My favorite is a half-valved Session Steel in key of D.
Having said that, I am not sure that a customized Seydel would offer me more than I am getting out of them now. I would probably be willing to try it once to see what I am missing. If it truly made a difference I would probably then start having other harps done, probably just the real workhorses like A, D, G, C, F.
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HarpNinja
4019 posts
Feb 09, 2015
10:18 AM
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Generally speaking, a "custom" is going to have better and more consistent response on all 10 holes and the ease of bending is improved. They are more in tune as well.
I've taken a liking to recessed harps like the SP20 and Session Steel over the last few years - a real change of heart for myself. The Session works really well.
The handmade Hohner's and steel Seydels are all playable out of the box for most players. That being said, they can all be improved.
One need not be an overblow player to reap the rewards of a harp that has been modified.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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CarlA
664 posts
Feb 09, 2015
10:51 AM
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Interested depending on price. I used to hate the steel session seydels, now I favor them over any hohner ootb harp, even the crossover.
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HarpNinja
4020 posts
Feb 09, 2015
11:18 AM
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Hypothetically...
Fully customized Session Steel for general use would run approximately $125-175 depending on my overhead.
Unless there was huge demand, I don't like cutting corners to offer a cheaper model, or "optimized". What happens, even if you are selling completed harps, is people end up expecting a full custom for a reduced rate.
An 1847 would run $25-50 more, again, depending on overhead.
Overblow setup is tricky, but that would run significantly more.
I *think* I could do a tweaked, but not fully custom, Session for around $100, but I don't know if that's the direction I want to go (especially if I am dealing with people I don't know that might confuse what they're getting).
I stopped doing so much custom work as I moved up the career latter in the real world. I also have a very young family. As much as I love building harps, I do it as a hobby for myself, not a career. For the last two years, I've only built for friends, but the ready-to-go harps gives me even more flexibility to build at my own pace and still learn more about the harmonica.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Feb 09, 2015 11:22 AM
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zackattack
26 posts
Feb 09, 2015
11:45 AM
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I like the idea in concept, but I would find it difficult to justify the additional expense given my level of play and my audience. While I would enjoy the fine points of a custom harp in playability the audience is mainly "meat and potatoes" folks who are dancing, drinking, talking and eating and are not paying attention to the finer points of any musician in the band, much less the harmonica.
Believe me, a custom harp or two in my case would be thrilling, but I have a fixed income, excepting paid gigs, and it just wouldn't be cost effective.
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A440
333 posts
Feb 09, 2015
11:51 AM
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Ben Bouman is already doing what you describe, so I guess there is a market. He offers different levels of set-up at different price points:
www.benboumanharmonica.nl
Personally I believe that Seydels require less tweaking than Hohners. I have been very satisfied with my Session Steels OOTB, so I'm not sure I would pay to have one improved. However, I have thought about trying one of Ben's just to see how much better it plays...
Last Edited by A440 on Feb 09, 2015 12:12 PM
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arzajac
1588 posts
Feb 09, 2015
11:57 AM
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Great thread, Mike! I just became a Seydel dealer and will be adding a few products to my site soon. I'm very interested in this topic!
I haven't gotten a lot of demand for overblow Session Steel; folks seem to prefer the 1847 for that. But the Session Steel is a great harp and offers great value.
Semi-custom harps also offer great value. So that's what I think will work best.
I need to work out the details, but I plan on offering a semi-custom Session Steel for around the same price as my Semi-Custom Special 20.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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HarpNinja
4021 posts
Feb 09, 2015
12:18 PM
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"Personally I believe that Seydels require less tweaking than Hohners."
It depends on the goal, really. IMO, Hohners are more forgiving for overbends, whereas Seydel need a different approach.
For a general setup, again, it depends on what you're after.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Feb 09, 2015 12:21 PM
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HarpNinja
4022 posts
Feb 09, 2015
12:22 PM
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I have no interest in semi-custom Hohners. It isn't fun to build them.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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HarpNinja
4023 posts
Feb 09, 2015
12:27 PM
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Knowing what I know about this board, I'd think more would be interested in the Session simply because it is cheaper than an 1847 (but we're talking a very small number of posters, so that isn't really a "trend").
Nothing is sexier (in the harmonica world) than a really nice custom Marine Band or 1847...but they cost more than a SP20 or SS.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Feb 09, 2015 12:32 PM
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nacoran
8258 posts
Feb 09, 2015
1:40 PM
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I'm always tight on cash, so I might not be in the market, but I will dream of these harmonicas in my sleep. :)
That said, I talked to Seydel once by email. Something around the house broke and the money I had set aside for the harp went up in smoke, but I wanted to try the flagship 1847, but was already happy with my long cover combs. I had seen a long cover version on their site in some promo materials, and after contacting them, at least at the time it seemed you could get long covers for 1847s as an option. That might be an option box you could add to your products. (The bronzed Blues Session covers are nice too, but they taste kind of funny. I've got a set of those on a chestnut comb I got from David Payne back a ways.)
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Nate
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Harmlessonica
64 posts
Feb 09, 2015
2:39 PM
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Ben's site listed above is awesome... selling a properly set up 1847 at prices close to (or even cheaper) than most stores here sell the regular off the shelf version!
It might be a case of the economics of currency conversion, etc being in my favour... but as long as your perceived target audience aren't paying too much extra for the custom work I'm sure there'd be a healthy market.
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HarpNinja
4024 posts
Feb 09, 2015
3:15 PM
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I could charge $65 all day long with dealer prices for Session Steels where all I do is check gapping. It is a good way to make a decent hourly wage relative to the work you'd do. You could make near $100 an hour if you're just checking gaps.
"Properly set up" and "too much extra" are hard to define.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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bloozefish
178 posts
Feb 09, 2015
5:16 PM
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1847 workhorse harps, optimized,,maybe with choice of tunings... 7Limit, 19, etc
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Harmlessonica
66 posts
Feb 09, 2015
5:16 PM
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Well, speaking from a potential customer's point of view, I wish I knew about such sites months ago (when I started buying harmonicas).
My definition of 'properly set up' is consistency. Some of my OOTB have been, others were all over the place and I don't really have the skill or time to correct them myself. I'd have been happy to pay, say, up to 10% extra for that piece of mind.
It's a no-brainer as they say.
Last Edited by Harmlessonica on Feb 09, 2015 5:17 PM
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GMaj7
615 posts
Feb 09, 2015
5:45 PM
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Nacoran,
If you want long/full-length covers for your Seydels..
Send them to me .. I will swap them out w/the hardware all day long..
For the cost of return shipping..
I get covers from Seydel by the 100s..both 1847 and full length..
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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HarpNinja
4025 posts
Feb 10, 2015
7:25 AM
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Harmonica business is a tough nut to crack.
Let's look at the example of a Session Steel with a 10% mark up...
With a dealer discount, a SS would run about $42 plus an additional $6 for shipping, so $48.
Upon completing the harp, you'd have to ship to the customer at a cost of around $6, so your overhead is around $54.
If you're selling the harp at $66, that nets you a profit of $12. Technically, you should pay our taxes, so you're taking home about $8.
What amount of labor are you expecting for $8?
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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dougharps
838 posts
Feb 10, 2015
9:02 AM
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I don't really need, but would really like to try, at least one full overblow harp. Currently when I play diatonics I add the occasional 6 or sometimes 5 OB. I switch to a keyed chromatic when I need chromaticism to perform music that needs missing notes.
I made myself learn to do overbends after being overwhelmed by the ability of the talent at the 2008 SPAH. If Jay Gaunt and other teens could play chromatically on a diatonic, then I would at least learn to pop the 6 OB!
At this point I find that with a few gap adjustments I can make SP20s, MBDs, Crossovers, Manjis, Delta Frosts (Harpmasters?), and even LOs (to my surprise!) pop overblows on 5 and 6 as passing tones, and often on 4 overblows on higher keys. My technique is still in progress.
I would be interested in exploring a full overblow harp. Unfortunately, the highest price I could justify to myself that would satisfy my curiosity ($200) is too low to ask of a customizer. It is just not reasonable to expect that much work for that little compensation.
I have played for so long without overbends that they don't seem to be a necessity in my playing. If I were 30 or 40 years younger, it probably would be worth a bit more to me as a longer term endeavor.
I enjoy the discussions on this forum that involve customizers discussing their work and the challenges involved. It is clear that you all love your work, because the compensation is not sufficient to explain the dedication to improving harmonicas.
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Doug S.
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HarpNinja
4026 posts
Feb 10, 2015
10:03 AM
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Doug,
IMVHO, unless you are playing something out of the ordinary for harmonica, the two most important overbends are 6 and 7.
In addition, you wouldn't necessarily need to spend on additional overhead and labor like modifying combs and covers.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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Philosofy
664 posts
Feb 10, 2015
11:37 AM
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I thought I asked this already, but I don't see the post. Are the steel reeds harder to work than brass or bronze?
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CarlA
667 posts
Feb 10, 2015
11:53 AM
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"Mike Harpninja
My Website
My Harmonica Effects HarpNinja
4025 posts
Feb 10, 2015
7:25 AM
Harmonica business is a tough nut to crack."
It's not just the harmonica market Mike. Unfortunately, nearly every sector of the market is suffering from what I call the "Walmart mentality". People want it NOW, and they want it CHEAP.
The good 'ole days of people paying a fair price and receiving a quality product are unfortunately over.
What can $8 dollars profit get you for your time? Well, nothing really more than a super sized big-Mac. What can $8 dollars buy a family in India/China? Probably equivalent to a months salary. Big business know this and that's why everything is outsourced to cheap labor.
Unfortunately, the western mentality expects you to customize a harp, put in 3-4 hours of labour, and to be happy with $3/hour profit.
Hence the "Walmart mentality".
Unfortuntely, it's a struggle against a way of thinking, which in turn is wringing the necks of small business owners the world over.
Last Edited by CarlA on Feb 10, 2015 11:58 AM
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