|
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Jason is back
Jason is back
Topic Locked
Page:
1
2
Little roger
61 posts
Feb 15, 2015
12:00 AM
|
What Winslow said.
|
Danny Starwars
63 posts
Feb 15, 2015
12:19 AM
|
This situation made me think of this. Not an exact match, but ...
Penny: Oh no, I can't give up my acting classes, I'm a professional actress.
Leonard: Oh, you've had an acting job where you got paid?
Penny: That is not the definition of professional.
Leonard: Actually, it kind of... lets keep looking.
----------
My YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2_8CnjaiNLcPke4gWQ65A
|
CarlA
679 posts
Feb 15, 2015
5:09 AM
|
@winslow
You hit the proverbial "nail on the head". Well said
|
Kingley
3842 posts
Feb 15, 2015
5:33 AM
|
Well stated Winslow.
I think it's easy for people to criticise and say oh you should never do this or that. or oh you should always do this and that. Until such time though that you're on stage and gigging as heavily as most pro players are, you can't even begin to understand what life on the road is like and what it takes to be truly professional player who is making the bulk of his/her living from playing music. I can tell you for nothing that it ain't easy and most people couldn't, wouldn't and shouldn't do it. Being a pro entails a lot of hard work, taking a lot of crap from bad venue owners and their staff, promoters, booking agents, hotel staff, hecklers and much more. You have to have an extremely thick skin and it's a highly stressful job. Most people simply couldn't cope with that life and crave their home comforts too much.
Jason, the band sounds good and will only get better. It's great to see you out there doing it again man. Keep on keeping on.
Big D, I wouldn't care if you played with your back to the audience all night. Your playing is great and it always captivates my ears. Don't let the haters get to you brother. I suspect they are simply jealous of your talent and those great gigs you get to play. I know I am! :)
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 15, 2015 5:34 AM
|
shadoe42
312 posts
Feb 15, 2015
7:13 PM
|
Having been there and done that I watched the video and the first thing I thought when Jason left the stage was..bet he is going after something to drink.
Sometimes there just isn't a good way to get anyone's attention to try to bring you something or isn't time. If you need to sing or play again soon but also need something to undry your throat.
Always a bad thing to presume someone is being unprofessional when the whole story is not known.
----------
Dr. Rev. Mr. Cheeks Miller
My Electronic Music World
|
Tuckster
1460 posts
Feb 16, 2015
8:05 AM
|
I was at the Pittsburgh show. It was great to see Jason back in action,fronting his own band.I've seen Jason at least half a dozen times and I've never seen him give less than 110%. This time was no exception.I was looking forward to the new band and the changes that come with that. While the new band was certainly not at the level of 200+ gigs a year New Blood,they certainly did a fine job.I had no expectations that they would be at that level,you could tell they were a band that was still gestating. You could tell they were still struggling with Jason's songs,particularly"Snowflakes and Horses"(one of my favorites). Did it detract from my enjoyment? Not in the least. I got to see a band really working their butts off to get it right.I can't ask for anymore than that.
|
nacoran
8275 posts
Feb 16, 2015
11:30 AM
|
Winslow, from what I know of Iceman's musical history he deserves to be in that peer group.
I'm going to step in here for a second with a bit of psychology and maybe even a personal anecdote. I'm an intermediate harp player, I can sing if I have to, and I think I write a pretty decent lyric (I actually minored in creative writing). If I fell into a band that had a band leader that could organize things and didn't have the health problems I've got maybe I could aspire to be one of those 'peers'. As it is, I'm a guy who gets out to open mics sometimes and admins on a harp site.
Now the psychology. There is an old psychology study they did where they split a bunch of kids into two groups and had them take an easy test. The kids all did well because it was an easy test, but that was just the set up. They then told half the kids how smart they were, that they were geniuses, no wonder they did so well on the test. The other group they said, 'Wow, I could see how hard you were trying. You tried so hard and look, it paid off'.
Then they asked the kids if they wanted to take another test, and they could pick to take another test that was the same difficulty or a harder test. The little geniuses wanted to take another test that was about the same. Genius is fleeting. If you take a harder test and bomb all that praise you got is gone. The kids they praised for how hard they tried wanted to try something even harder.
As a kid I was always told how much potential I had. I always aced the tests without even trying, but you know what? I'm sitting here unemployed in Greenland (or rather Upstate, NY, but it looks like Greenland right now).
Two of the hardest things to do are to give honest criticism and to watch anyone criticize someone you are routing for. Disclaimer- I've been distracted the last couple days. I haven't even watched the video yet. I'm amazed by Jason's work ethic, and I'm not saying that for maximum psychological effect. I practice but I don't have that kind of focus. All my teachers and the tests said I'm a genius. If I had that kind of drive who knows where I'd be today. (I hear Iceland is nice this time of year?)
One of the things I love about this forum is that there are guys who will tell you you suck. Iceman didn't say Jason sucked, just implied that he wasn't playing on that higher plane that we've come to expect of Jason, and he even added 'yet' to his qualification of their funk skills. Even with such faint damning he was very polite about it.
Now, that all said, it's easy to forget what a weird place an internet forum is, especially one like this that doesn't send notifications. There are guys on this forum who are out there in the world who come to this forum and comment who a lot of us only know because we've seen them on YouTube or heard their name somewhere- celebrities, for a lack of a better word. If we are talking about the harmonica skills of Steven Tyler (not a member as far as I know) we are talking about a celebrity. If we are talking about the harmonica skills of JoeAverage, forum member (not an actual member name as far as I know) and they are part of the discussion we talk very differently, and talk directly to them. Then we have these weird hybrid situations- someone else posted a video of Jason, he's not even necessarily in the conversation that we know (until of course he is). And here we were talking like a celebrity and the whole tone sounds more like you are talking behind someone's (a forum member's) back.
I don't know if the solution is simply semantics, or remembering where we are. Dialing way back to my psychology example, when I was in school I had to write an article for one of my classes, and I chose 'How to Critique'. Basically, it was a pretty good, lighthearted article on how to critique something without sounding like a horse's ass. We were supposed to try to submit it for publication, (it was a Freelance Journalism class). I chickened out and never sent it anywhere. Half that story is that you've got to put it out there to even get rejected, and the other half is I wish I could find that article on whichever disconnected hard drive it's on. I'd dust it off and update it with this weird forum information and suddenly it might be relevant again. It's all tact. Remember who your audience is, ye writers of forum posts, for you are both committing a public and a private act. On Iceman, on Winslow, on Goldbrick on Jinxy, on Prancer on Vixen. Man there is a lot of snow outside. I think I might be suffering from early onset Cabin Fever. Anyway, play nice or I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow this weather to wherever you are.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
The Iceman
2290 posts
Feb 16, 2015
12:00 PM
|
I am thanking Nate for responding to my administrative complaint regarding Winslow's personally insulting and pompous reply. I did ask for consideration in regards to a public retraction and apology. However, since administration's response is a bit soft, what follows are my original comments that I left off list in hopes for a different resolution.
Here they are...
Iceman writes: "Based on my post, looks like this discussion has focused on definition of the word "peer" (of which I consider myself to be in regards to pro players)."
Actually, Iceman, you're not.
Do you manage to book, travel to, and play 200-300 gigs a year while keeping a band together under tight economic circumstances?
Do you have a body of commercially available recorded work?
Do you depend on gigs or royalties for your livelihood?
You may believe that you play as well as a pro, but that does not make you the peer of a working pro. You don't have to face the artistic and economic choices a working pro faces or function in public under pressure, day in and day out. Unless you do, you don't have a good understanding of the sensitivities a pro feels.
Most pros stay the hell away from forums like this, partly because they don't want to be subjected to abuse and ignorance. Jason was one of the very few who had the generosity and enthusiasm to participate.
Winslow,
For years I've had very high regard for you as a professional, as you have always done extensive research into areas in which you enjoy disseminating information to the harmonica community.
And then that last posting…
The statements directed towards me feels to me like someone "on high" looking down on me with the definitive perspective on me and my life.
"Actually, Iceman, you're not" is a very pompous assumption coming from someone with no information on my musical history and certainly not from someone who bothered to do even a little bit of research before posting to the general harmonica community. As such, this feels to me like a direct attack.
Personal vendettas are so non-professional at our age. I even implored you to contact me directly before posting stuff like this to circumvent this silly public spanking scenario you seem to enjoy.
So. let's just examine your bullet points one at a time, shall we?
1. Do you manage to book, travel to, and play 200-300 gigs a year while keeping a band together under tight economic circumstances?
Why, yes I did. I became a band leader around 1980 and formed three different Top-40 Bands, each being 5 piece. I kept everyone working for a period of about 12 years, as we were all professional musicians depending on gigs for our livelihood. I booked gigs alone and through agencies all over Mich, Ohio and Indiana. I arranged hotel accommodations, rented trucks to move the large PA system, did all the bookkeeping and payroll, wrote all the arrangements, rehearsed the band, dealt with prima donna musicians or those that would vanish just before a gig, ran the PA system and light show from the stage while playing keys, and pretty much ran the full gamut. (One may argue that economic circumstances were different back then, but that would be a thin postition to take, as musicians are always under tight economic circumstances no matter what the economy is like).
2. Do you have a body of commercially available recorded work?
I've never been a writer of tunes nor lead singer, so have never been interested in creating original music. However, I have done much professional session work while in Detroit and on a few projects from musicians I've met over the years. When I was in a rock band from 1973 - 76, we did record an album at United Sound Studios in Detroit which was produced by Calvin Simon, one of the singers in Parliament/Funkadelic and toured to promote it. btw, this rock band also played at least 200 - 300 gigs a year all over Mich, Indiana and Ohio.
3. Do you depend on gigs or royalties for your livelihood?
During those 20 years, I was totally dependent on gigs for my livelihood. I did also become a piano tech and was able to supplement this income a bit by picking up day jobs, but didn't really get into full time piano work till I stopped being a full time musician around 1992.
For 20 years I lived as a professional musician, facing the same artistic and economic choices a working pro faces, functioning in public under pressure, day in and day out. Through this experience, I developed a very good understanding of the sensitivities a pro feels.
(and please don't suggest that rock band, Top-40 band experiences are different than any other professional musician field and/or style of music).
All of this information was readily available to you had you done your homework through proper research before posting your diatribe against me.
So, as a result, I've lost respect for you and your professionalism and can only wonder what could have possibly happened to lead you to post with such poor judgment.
However, I do wish to salute you for giving such a beautiful example of your penultimate sentence….
“Most pros stay the hell away from forums like this, partly because they don't want to be subjected to abuse and ignorance.”
----------
The Iceman
|
ted burke
89 posts
Feb 16, 2015
12:26 PM
|
I have spent some years in bands and have travelled some miles to gigs and have needed the money to pay rent and to eat and I have never once thought about getting on another musician's case because they weren't "out there" enough with respect to trying to exist as an artist of some sort in this culture. Really, it's as dull and idiotic as two sober alcoholics trying to "out bottom" in an effort to establish who the "real alcoholic" is. There is something brewing in this thread that smells kinda rank, like old resentments that have been moldering for a bit, and it's a damn shame considering that the topic was to help celebrate Jason's return to the life of a working musicians; he has had a hard road to travel and many things set in his path but he has kept the faith and continued to be a friend to the harmonica at large;dispite his hardships, he has managed to give back. That said, I think it's time to lock this thread down. It's become a pointless discussion that just feeds the nastiness.
----------
Ted Burke
__________________
ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
|
nacoran
8276 posts
Feb 16, 2015
2:48 PM
|
You're right Iceman, I should have been more direct on this one.
Winslow, Larry's comments were about the music, yours were personal, and factually incorrect, with the possible exception of mincing some tenses. (And guys, don't pile on like that please).
Also importantly, I think the distinction between pros/peers and amateurs isn't helpful for who can have an opinion. Forming opinions is one of the most important parts of learning. You can judge people's opinions by how much experience they have, but to make a distinction on who can and can't share an opinion isn't useful and I think very much counter to what we try to do on this site, whether it's and experienced player like Iceman or you or someone like JoeAverage (or me for that matter). We can disagree with those opinions, but do so civilly.
And everyone, remember, most musicians don't mind if you say they suck but most musicians will give you a black eye you attack their band (or anyone close to them for that matter).
I try to approach each thread with a bit of amnesia. I don't like to carry the preconceptions of previous threads over. I encourage everyone to try that. It's easy to read comments with your own angry voice-over if you come to the next thread carrying baggage. The exception to that though- a fragment of a comment I actually really liked- 'yet'. Iceman, I think it got lost in the fray, but that's about as good as it gets motivationally. In one snippet you conveyed that any misgivings you had about a particular performance were outweighed by your expectations of what's down the road.
Jason, you've worked your butt off for years to get to the level you are at. On any given night there are going to be circumstances and some nights will be better than others. You make a really great point about how any given night you can get recorded by anyone with a camera (maybe for comedic effect I'll dig up some of my bands old recordings, we've got one we call the cow moo, and a heavy metal version of a song we should have kept as a blues tune!). I'm looking forward to hearing a recording that you feel you nailed. I enjoyed this one, but compared to the really high bar set by other recordings of yours it's not perfect, but it's great to see you getting out there and rocking.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
WinslowYerxa
791 posts
Feb 16, 2015
4:38 PM
|
Sorry, Larry, I didn't know the things you have related about your personal history.
My reply was intended to address factual points and was not intended to be "pompous" or "personal," merely factual. I see that I have failed in the that regard due to lack of knowledge of the facts of your past.
I apologize.
Winslow
===========
Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Feb 16, 2015 4:46 PM
|
CarlA
681 posts
Feb 16, 2015
5:04 PM
|
Drama is one thing that is never in short supply at MBH ;)
|
Jim Rumbaugh
1091 posts
Feb 16, 2015
5:54 PM
|
on another note.......
Jason is comeing to Calacinos in BECKLEY,WV. March 18th
I'm getting a road trip organized. Gonna be 3 or 4 or more from Huntington, making the 2 hour drive to hear Jason.
I'm pumped and ready.
----------
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
|
6SN7
508 posts
Feb 17, 2015
7:30 AM
|
I am glad to see JR is back on the road and rocking, great news.
A real pity that this post has devolved into a puddle of mess.
For a poster to comment, "it's fun to rile up a Grammy winner" should be tossed off the forum. Funny? To him, maybe. Comments like that add zero value here and take away from the spirit of this forum.
|
dougharps
859 posts
Feb 17, 2015
8:42 AM
|
Cabin fever at work?
So easy to type and post an opinion. Then we defend others and offend others and round and round. I appreciate when someone offers an apology after being called out on an ill conceived comment. It shows integrity to admit an error one has made in order to defend someone. We have seen threads escalate until locked. I hope we can all slow down and stop any possible chain reactions.
We all share a love of the instrument. We all love music, especially with harmonica. Some uses of harmonica appeal more to some than others. Some performances move us more than others. But we all love harmonica, or we wouldn't be here.
RE the OP - I am glad that Jason is touring again, and I am glad the video was posted. I enjoyed it.
Since I first heard Jason play years ago I have known that he is able to push the boundaries of the instrument and play and improvise with genuine emotion at a high technical level. His new group will evolve, as do all groups, regardless of the high levels of musicianship of the members. Melding individual performers into a group takes time and is an ongoing process.
While I am a local performer I know many who have toured and I have played in groups with those who have toured for a living. They have my utmost respect for the stress and sacrifice they endured for the joy of supporting themselves while performing their music.
Most of the music we have heard in our lives was produced and recorded and re-recorded to remove any imperfections. With live music, especially with improvisation, it is being created in the moment. "Here and now, boys; here and now, boys." (Aldous Huxley, "The Island")
I don't think ANY video of a performance should be used to judge a band. At the most, you could critique a specific performance of that band, but I really don't think that critiques are productive in any way unless sought by the performer for self improvement purposes. Thinking about online videos of live shows I am reminded that in some cultures it is wrong to be photographed because it steals your soul. In a way (though I enjoy live show videos) it is similar to shoot and post a video of a few moments of live performance. I think that to try to judge such a video and offer an unsolicited critique is stealing the soul of live music.
In my experience with good musicians and even with myself I know that we are our own worst critics. I am sure that Jason and his group of skilled musicians are each aware in each performance of what worked optimally and what they will readjust. Anyone playing at that level has the goal of continuing to work to improve.
I am not into the judging thing much at all, when it comes to music. Some performances move me more than others and that is OK. I like live music, warts and all. I like the variety of it. I like that each performance is unique. I would rather hear someone go out on a limb, jump for it, and just miss than hear an overproduced perfected recording. But that is just me...
I am glad to see Jason persevere and to once again bring his music to others, outside of Indiana.
----------
Doug S.
|
The Iceman
2291 posts
Feb 17, 2015
10:46 AM
|
Maybe it's because I've been sick, and at my age, illness sure makes me cranky. Maybe it's because I've lived an artistic life to the max and overreact to blatant disrespect. Perhaps it's because I get tired of "political maneuvering and spin doctoring" when dealing with simple, real issues.
Whatever, I feel compelled to offer my public response to Winslow's apologetic posting. Let's examine his reasoning a bit closer, shall we, before apologies are accepted...
"My reply was intended to address factual points and was not intended to be "pompous" or "personal," merely factual. I see that I have failed in the that regard due to lack of knowledge of the facts of your past."
"NOT PERSONAL - MERELY FACTUAL"
Your reply clearly did not address nor contain any factual points at all - rather, my perception is that it was a blatant attempt to discredit me within this community. However, I may have missed something, so in all fairness, if you can reply showing how your posting was indeed merely factual, I will stand corrected.
Otherwise....
Years ago, a similar scenario unfolded on "Harp-L" between Doug Tate and myself. He unleashed a very similar discrediting barrage against me. When I called him on his "political assassinating", at least he had the honesty to admit that this was indeed his agenda. I never in a million years thought I would ever hold Doug Tate in higher regard than another human being, but his ultimate honesty trumps your thinly veiled attempt at continuous "political" evasiveness (unless I am missing something...see above).
Perhaps our differences are due to the fact that while I was paying my dues as a professional musician, you were an office machine salesman/repairman for Atkins Office Systems?
So, keep on offering your brilliant advice to the harmonica community. It is a well received fountain of information. However, I have no wish to be part of your sphere of influence. At this late stage of the game, I prefer a higher grade of honesty and professionalism in my life.
Larry Eisenberg
----------
The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Feb 17, 2015 11:57 AM
|
nacoran
8279 posts
Feb 17, 2015
11:52 AM
|
Just when I think I'm out they keep pulling me back in.
I logged on and saw Winslow's apology and smiled and thought I could have a nice relaxing day. Iceman, now I think you are the one who is out of line. You asked for an apology and you got one. You are welcome to your opinions and theories on why it was offered but now you are the one in violation of the forum rules, particularly this part:
"But please refrain from flaming, insulting, or otherwise impugning the looks, parentage, intelligence, or good intentions of your fellow board members"
You are definitely impugning the good intentions of a fellow board member. You are welcome to continue to hold a grudge, but keep it off the boards. Life is too short.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
ted burke
92 posts
Feb 17, 2015
12:00 PM
|
How about a frank exchange of emails rather than an online grudge match?
----------
Ted Burke
__________________
ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
|
The Iceman
2293 posts
Feb 17, 2015
12:18 PM
|
I hear you, Nate.
Apologies to me are more than lip service - honesty also plays an important part as to the good intentions of a fellow board member, don't you agree? Offering an apology, but qualifying it with non-existent rational to me negates the apology. Offering an apology alone or qualifying it with truthful rationalization works for me. I just gave Winslow the option of clearing this up. Non answers are so political (and I find those that are political to be less than forthcoming with honesty).
I may be operating under a different set of values than yours, so I respectfully disagree with your conclusion of impugning the good intentions of a fellow board member. However, I'm willing to adjust my orientation to follow your lead. After all, you are an administrator and I'm just a member of the forum.
Ted - I prefer offline emails, too, but some people thrust everything into the public spotlight thereby changing the direction of what follows.
----------
The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Feb 17, 2015 12:26 PM
|
Jim Rumbaugh
1096 posts
Feb 17, 2015
12:30 PM
|
I've had enough.
I'm going to another thread.
----------
theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
|
nacoran
8280 posts
Feb 17, 2015
12:49 PM
|
I'm going to lock this down now. Perhaps I should have locked it down sooner. I've explained why I didn't (or will shortly explain) to those who I think need to know. I'm not going to put this on my moderating highlight reel.
----------
Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
|
|
