That line is being pushed pretty hard on this forum. And even the less extreme wing of the Non-Custom Harmonica Haters movement are adamant that any out of the box harp, once you've taken it out of the box, will need to be disassembled, gapped, tuned, embossed, assuaged, clinthered, and re-garbled. You should preferably spend the money to have that done by an expert, but you can also spend the money to buy a half dozen or so harps so you can learn by doing.
It seems an odd attitude for a forum that I thought - could be wrong! - was meant to encourage people to play the harmonica. Do forums about any other musical instrument display such a negative attitude toward that instrument?
Last Edited by Frank101 on Jan 29, 2015 4:50 PM
I've often felt odd about that too, here. I've been playing since sometime in the 80's and always only played harps OOTB. Needless to say, that's sometimes ended up with me having crap experiences with the odd individual harp, but there probably needs to be a tempering of attitudes. OOTB is great; customization is even better if you can do it/get it, but don't fret if you can't.
I would like to learn more about DIY improvements, but in the meantime I would like to get on and have a great time making music.
---------- My YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2_8CnjaiNLcPke4gWQ65A
I know most good guitar players adjust the action of the strings after buying them. That's really not too much different than gapping reeds.
I generally don't tune my harps, but I bought a sp 20 one time that was 25 cents sharp on one of the reeds. I couldn't play the note without cringing a bit, so naturally, I tuned it.
Even classical instruments like flutes are often tinkered with after they are bought.
I have a feeling that a lot of the players on this forum are pretty good players, and good players like their instruments to sound their best. It would be dumb to expect a total beginner to do any harp modifications.
That being said, the gap heights out of the box are usually pretty bad. I always have to lower them.
i think thats a misreading. i work on harps for people who play them stock. they send them to me when they break. i repair them and at the same time i may adjust them if i see a need. when i send them the back, the customer usually lets me know the harp plays better than ever.
so of course, i will adjust nearly every harp that comes my way if i think it can be improved. but i don't go the whole hog on every harp; i just make it play to a standard which doesn't annoy me.
i didn't always do this. i used to just play them, like my customers. then i tried to fix the ones i couldn't play. over time i developed preferences and learned more about how to adjust to my preference. so now i have to do it or i'm not satisfied. but it doesnt start this way, and i expect some folks never go there
I think most stock harps are quite playable from the box.Some may need gapped a little.Thats all the setup required for most players and thats not bad.
I got here with a negative attitude after watching a video of Adam using a pen knife to remove the covers of a harp and slipping a deposit slip under the reeds. It seemed, to me, as a stepping off point for disaster. I had done the same thing for cleaning purposes but my gapping attempts were always failures and I gave up easily on the cheap instrument. I thought he was encouraging a bad practice for beginners and professionals alike.
For me, eventually, it was a blessing.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Jan 30, 2015 8:32 AM
I asked a similar question- should a beginner get a custom harp and have gotten answers from both sides of the story- so its not all one sided here. Im eventually going to get some custom harps but since I am a beginner I will play with the Hohner Rocket stock harps- every one I have gotten so far has given me no problems Danny Starwars I honestly don't think there is a channel though Hohner has a comprehensive you tube guide about that kind of stuff. they talk about maintaining the harmonica and some basic things that help you tune a harmonica but I'm not sure about the custom stuff- you are better off trying to find some books on the subject and going for trial and error- learn by doing.
I have played stock harps far more than customs. I have learned to adjust gaps to suit myself. While I have a few customs (not true overbend harps) that play like butter and let me play some things more easily, most of the time a well gapped stock harp is quite adequate for my playing and that is what I use most of the time. I play several different brands in the $30 to $100 price range that each have their own character, but I find all to be good instruments after a few small adjustments. I have some less expensive harps I seldom use. ----------
i don't think there are any instruments that are played straight out of the box without some sort of set up.
i once witnessed a luthier move the sound post on a stradivarius back and forth for an hour. retuning each time.it required adjustment,but the strad didn't suck.
i adjust my harmonicas.there are some that are ok out of the box,but there certainly weren't in 1983 !! :) ----------
I just bought a new car this year. It's brand spanking new and actually the first car I ever bought from a showroom. All my other cars were hand-me-downs. That said, it's just about the least expensive car that you can buy new that won't actively try to kill you. (It's a shiny red Chevy Spark.) It's absolutely the fewest options it can come with- no power locks, no fog lamps, gasoline engine (there is an electric version for twice the price), none of the bells and whistles. It is a very practical car and barring accident I intend to drive it until it dies. The car it replaced was an '87 Nissan. It's practical and in every way does what I need it to do.
If tomorrow I won the lottery I'd probably keep it. But I'd probably also buy a Lexus. I'm perfectly happy with my Spark, but there are better cars out there if you are willing to spend more money.
For harmonicas, from what I've sampled, once you get past about the $30 range you've got yourself a good car (in a pinch I've even got Piedmonts to play passably; in car terms that like a rusted out Pinto with a gas tank that's about to be hit by a semi truck). A Sp20 or Lee Oskar may not have leather seats but it will get you where you need to go. A custom harp will look nicer, and feel nicer, and maybe even accelerate and perform better. Most people don't buy a Lexus because they need a Lexus, but it's not all a status symbol issue either. There are performance differences, but, as they say, there is the trip and the destination. You can get to your destination just fine in a whole range of reliable less expensive options, and may have to until you pay off your Chevy Spark! :)
As for videos, Adams video on gapping is a good starting point. Arzajac has some great videos. For a long time the standard was Richard Sleigh. He got informative videos out there and was early to adopt better cameras. When a lot of guys were saying, 'And pluck this here' while pointing to a blurry spot on the screen his videos had clear images early on. Kinya Pollard has a lot of articles on customizing too. (Personally, although I like to see pictures of what I'm doing I still learn some things better by reading them, I think because I instantly pause in my mind and 'rewind' when I need to digest something and sometimes am not vigilant enough doing that while watching videos.
My experience is exactly the same as Doug's. I play good harps - started with Special 20's and moved to Seydel 1847's. Occasionally I have to gap a reed. I have never felt the need to tune, emboss, assuage, clinther, or re-garble.
But I don't claim to be as demanding of my haros as some are. I don't use a lot of over blows.
As for beginners? Custom harps are almost certainly a waste of money. You will blow them out because you haven't learned how to bend and where Not to. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
I mainly play out of the box Special 20s, Crossovers, and Session Steels. (I have harps in 5 or 6 other models that don't get played much). Occasionally I need to gap a reed here or there, but thats it. I have around 20 harps in regular use, I gig 2-3 times a month, and practice once a week. Frequently used harps get opened about every three months for cleaning. I could not imagine a lower maintenance instrument.
When the Honhers go out of tune or break a reed, I send them to Hohner for repair (my local harp retailer has a monthy pick up from Hohner, as a service to customers). I send in maybe 2 or 3 harps a year for repair/tuning. The price is reasonable. They come back cleaned, tuned, and sometimes with a shiny new reed or two.
The Session Steels generally stay in tune and stay correctly gapped.
Would I like a high-end custom harp? Sure! But thats beyond my budget, and I don't "need" a custom. Stock harps are not crap.
Last Edited by A440 on Jan 29, 2015 9:54 PM
I'm 30 years into my Harp journey..I can't overblow,overdraw nor play triplets at 100mph..but then again i personally don't want to. I am happy in my own little world ..a good band, some 12've bar toons and i am like a pig in excrement (as the saying goes) So i don't NEED a custom,in fact it'd probably be wasted on me,but fuck it ,i want one! Nacorans analogy of a Lexus was good,my analogy is that i used to be a ranked snooker player..won a few cups(and money) with a 20$ cue..but lusted after a 'custom'..(measured by floor to under your armpit). Did it make me play better? Well yes,but it was partly because i was already a good player and the investment i was willing to make in an expensive custom cue reinforced that self belief and confidence. I suppose that internally, spending around 300$(Nz) on a Harmonica would be like that cue i once had made personally for me.
Last Edited by indigo on Jan 29, 2015 9:44 PM
With regards to the OP's point about the 'attitude' of this forum, I think in general people are doing exactly what they should be doing; imparting knowledge from their own experience and offering suggestions. As a beginner myself, I have found this forum to be very encouraging and supportive.
After recently describing my misfortune when I bought my first 'real' harmonica, some people brought up the issue of gapping. They didn't immediately say "The problem is you." Unlike my family, I'm sorry to say (!)
I was given the benefit of the doubt and some possible solutions, and that's the best attitude one could hope for.
As it goes that harp will only play as good as the mouth honkin` on it.I`m sure a great player on an marine band OB,is sounding better than a half fast player with a $100. harp...I`ve playing 47 yrs. and may adjust the reeds when necessary,and those MB-OB have been doinit 4 me...
Last Edited by nowmon on Jan 30, 2015 5:02 AM
A custom harmonica would have accelerated my learning by miles. I played on harps that didn't bend well at all for a looooong time. Because the 2 and 3 blow reeds were waaay to widely gapped. Now I know where the muscles are and how to build em, I can bend any harp. Couldn't back then. Same for overblows. If my son (I don't have a son) would want to start, I would give him 2 harmonicas. A decent one and one of my gig-set which are fully set-up.
I never blew out a reed to this day. Not everyone sucks the harp like a blind fool while beginning. Stop projecting this on every beginner that comes by here. Perhaps the fact that harps play crap out of the box half the time is the reason everyone feels this need. How else will the tone come out??
Last Edited by FreeWilly on Jan 30, 2015 6:10 AM
The great thing about the internet is that literally anyone with access can get on a forum and say whatever they want and purport to be whatever they want.
The bad thing about the internet is that literally anyone with access can get on a forum and say whatever they want and purport to be whatever they want.
A lot of times, new enthusiasts get a few bouts of insomnia and start eagerly scanning forums dealing with their new hobby. Not really having any way to judge the competency of those posting, they start assuming it is all true. Next thing you know, NewB enthusiast is himself posting on the forums and using the same lingo he learned about the week before.
My harmonica is "leaky" , I don't get a "warm" tone, I overblow 7, 8, and 9.. etc.. and on and on.. and on.. ---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
In the past five or so years, we have seen significant improvement in the quality of OOTB harps. Hohner has probably made the biggest improvement with the loveable old Marine Bands, Special 20’s and MS-Harps. Once you get past their inexpensive China harps they are all good harps. Hohner has also upped their game by introducing the Crossover and more recently The Rocket. Suzuki has followed suit with the Manji and Seydel launched the Session Steel. We have plenty of good stock harps to choose from.
The word “Custom” has a lot of meanings. If buy a new Special 20 and adjust he gaps to my liking – is that a custom harp? In nearly every walk of life, as our knowledge about and enthusiasm for something grows, the more discriminating we become. There are a million examples of this. Here are a couple from my own life.
I grew up playing the clarinet. Clarinet reeds come in different degrees of stiffness ranging from 1 (softest) to 5 (hardest). A beginner will play a 1 because they simply do not have a strong enough embouchure to play anything stiffer. Conversely, an accomplished player will play stiffer reeds – 3’s, 4’s or 5’s – because the softer reeds simply choke – just like a harmonica reed does if the gap is set too low. We don’t have the luxury of ordering a Special 20 with different sets of reeds of varying stiffness to suit our preference or ability. We have to settle for a “One size fits all” product. The subtle difference in the stiffness of the reeds is one reason why we prefer one brand or model over another. It seems entirely unlikely that every reed made by competing manufacturers has the same stiffness. Choosing a different brand or model is the harmonica player’s way of buying a 1 – 5 clarinet reed. However, as your embouchure and technique improve, your preference will change.
I’ve been playing the harp for over 40 years. I’ve been playing golf for over 50 (I’m getting old!). Harmonica and golfers are quite a bit alike in that some will buy a brand new harmonica and the first thing they will do is tear it apart, install a custom comb, modify the reed plate and the tuning and then reassemble it. Golfers will buy a brand new driver (for $400+) and immediately pluck the shaft out and install a different shaft which probably costs another $150 - $200. The golf manufacturers have finally caught on. I just bought a new Titleist driver last week. The hosel (the part of the club where the shaft is inserted into the head) is adjustable so you can change the loft and lie angles or easily install a different shaft if you like. I went through a fitting session with the pro at my club and we tried a bunch of different combinations – different shafts, different loft and lie angles - until we found the set-up that suited me. We don’t have that luxury as harp players. We buy an OOTB harp and see how it plays. Usually we don’t even have the opportunity to play it before we buy it. Most of the time we get it in the mail sight unseen. So we buy a harp, try it out, and if it isn’t set up the way we like it, we modify it. The degree to which we modify it is a function of how much we know how about customizing harps or whether or not we have a relationship with someone that does.
This forum and the harmonica community are unique in my opinion in that we have access to World Class players, some of the most respected customizers on the planet and a myriad of others who offer specialized services to help us make better music with our instruments. Of course the conversation is going to drift to an advanced level and it should come as no surprise that some will look down their noses a bit at a stock harp. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that collectively we have a negative attitude about our instrument. Greg Heuman may play stock harps but he builds some of the best custom harp mics in the world. Perhaps we should have a conversation about how off the shelf mics suck and or how solid state amps are inferior to tube amps or whether wood combs sound better than plastic combs. Welcome to another day on the forum!
---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jan 30, 2015 7:03 AM
I've been playing for a little while now and I've played OOTB harmonicas always. I've not had the inclination to have my harmonicas tweaked or otherwise modified. It does seem a little fetishist that modification gets so much discussion here, but I do see the need for others to share information; sometimes harmonicas in themselves can't do what a player needs them to do. Depending on the skill of the player, modification is a sensible solution. ---------- Ted Burke __________________ ted-burke.com tburke4@san.rr.com
Well that's a cool bunch of replies. Hey, nothing against custom harps & the people who like to play them. There just seemed - and I'm thinking of one recent thread in particular - to be almost a consensus that harps that weren't customized weren't worth playing, and that stock harps were all so badly made that they would probably make a beginner give up in frustration. "Just keep working at it" seems like it would be a better answer, MOST of the time, to a beginner problem than "there's probably something wrong with your harp".
I"ve been playing ootb harps for 57 years. I wish I could afford a custom just to see what the big deal is about them. ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
I find the new stock harps to be pretty darned goud ootb.Basic gapping skills are something every harp player should learn to do.You can make plenty of good music with a stock harp and if needed, a little gapping.
A good customizer is going to ask you what your playing style is. You really need to play for a few years for a playing style to gel. I'd say you need to wait a bit before getting a custom. Of course,if you have a large disposable income,no harm trying one.
actually sarge, if you have played that many ootb harps you probably have a good idea about what a good custom is like.. it is like that one in twenty that comes out of the box and just plays like butter, every once in a while the commercial mid priced harps are real clams (that is where self repair can come in) and every once in a while they are super sweet. all the same brand of harp
a decent customizer can get them all to that super sweet level and even better. oh yea, and didn't you have that mike dude set up some harps for you a number of years back?
A good musician will always make good music. Howard Levy, Jason Ricci, Adam Gussow, Todd Parrott, Little Walter, Big Walter, Steve Guyger and thousands of other good players learnt to play on stock harmonicas. It didn't do any of them any harm did it?
I like the MS harps including the Blues Harp and play them almost exclusively. Now, that Hohner stopped selling replacement reedplates that may change, but I'm not sure.
I've played Suzukis, Seydels and almost the entire Hohner line. My performing harps are almost all stock MS harps.
I've never had anyone say, "Joe, you would be a much better player, if you switched to a more expensive harmonica." Other players usually ask me, "how can you play those things?"
I haven't had a bad OOTB MS harp in decades. Are they great? No, but I can play them. They are economical. They sound pretty good.
An analogy: When I was younger I used to participate in motocross racing. People showed up with lots of different kinds of equipment, from box stock to highly modified, customized and tweaked models pumping out unbelievable amounts of horsepower. And yet, more often than not in those days, the first across the finish line was more likely to be the kid on the beat up three year old Suzuki with everything duct-taped together. It is the rider, not the machine, that determines the outcome. I'll bet that Jason Ricci can take an old Huang Star Performer and make it sing!
Like anything else if you can afford it - go for it.
As with any thing there are diminishing returns as you pay more for refinements
the problem with harps is you cant try before you buy. I know if a drum just needs tuning- I know if a guitar just needs a setup before I buy.
A harp is a pig in a poke.
I agree with Joe L. For the average player a stock harp that is functional is just fine- i have some great playing big rivers and Suzuki Folkmasters.
unlike my beautiful Rickenbacker guitar- I get no pleasure from looking at my harps and they have no resale value-- I just want them to play.
I will say if you have the ability the better equipment does help. I raced motor cycles too and believe me- with riders of equal ability the better bike wins-like they say speed costs money
Is it possible to learn a stock harmonica? Yes Is it possible to play professionally a stock harmonica? Yes, but if you don't use too much overblows. Is it much pleasant to learn a custom harmonica? Yes Is it much more pleasant to play custom harmonicas professionally? Yes if you're not a hard blower.
I compare it to power steering in car. Yes it's possible to drive and ride without it, but it's much more pleasant to have it.
I play custom harmonicas for last 7 years of 14 years I play and hardly wish to go to stock. Can I play stock? Yes, but without controllable overblows and with much more discomfort, ---------- Excuse my bad English. My videos.
Walterharp said: oh yea, and didn't you have that mike dude set up some harps for you a number of years back? Yep, I sure did. Mike Street put new wood combs and did some reed work on some Souls Voice harps. He does a great job too. So, I guess I have some custom harps. I have had some great ootb harps and some duds too. ---------- Wisdom does not always come with old age. Sometimes old age arrives alone.
"Just keep working at it" seems like it would be a better answer, MOST of the time, to a beginner problem than "there's probably something wrong with your harp".
Unless the beginner has described a problem which indicates there probably is something wrong with the harp.
You know, I am the guy who fixes Suzuki harps for the US distributor--Suzuki Music. Many is the time that customers return their harps to us to see if there is something wrong with the harp or with them. Last week the numbers weren't so good, half of the harps had no issues. I am always disappointed, since I like working on harps--the Suzuki system is pretty painless for reed replacement (screws), and it gives me an excuse to play harmonica at work, who can complain about that. I agree with Boris, it's all about pleasure--we don't need instruments like the Japanese ones, a Chinese harp will do--but it might not be as pretty for you and those who hear you. Why not be nice to yourself? Oh, and I almost forgot my slogan: "You can always improve a harmonica"
Last Edited by Gnarly on Feb 01, 2015 9:11 AM
I read this 47 yrs ago,in a harp book.they were talking about marine bands,never bend a note on a new harp until you CHUGG,chords all over the harp for at least 4 hrs. of play time.They said it will allow the reeds to unstiff and be ready to do some honking,after awile.{dit-dit--hoo--dat-dat.thats what he said..and I`ve been doing this to all new harps since !! works 4 me...
It's hard to argue with, "Works for me" . . . Oh, and the first thing mentioned in the first post, disassembly and reassembly of the harp is probably a pretty good idea, Winslow recommends it, and since you are the one going to be playing it, you have the most to gain and so will probably do a better job than someone who might not even play harmonica (!)
Last Edited by Gnarly on Feb 01, 2015 10:49 AM
I first learned to play on a stock Hohner "HotMetal". I don't think is slowed down my progress. At first you are just trying to learn where the holes are and how to get just one to sound. A cheap harp will do this just as well as a fine one. I upgraded when I got to playing it well enough that I was curious about what a better harp could do.
The time to upgrade to better equipment is when you have advanced to the point where you can begin to utilize the advantages of the better equipment. A very raw beginner can not appreciate high performance equipment and might even find it detrimental to learning.
In a similar vein to the motorcycle analogies above; A person could learn to ride a bicycle better on a cheap basic model, than a short wheelbase, highly responsive criterium bike.
I have seen brand new cheap bikes that functioned so poorly anyone would give up trying, but assuming basic functionality is there, a basic model is easier to learn on.
Everything has its place. Whats "better" is very dependent on the circumstances.
If you learn any other instrument, you teacher will tell you buy the best instrument you can afford. Why not with harmonica? What we are being told is that custom harps are too difficult for beginners.
In that case maybe the customisers might target beginners with instruments that are well set up for their needs, and sold as such. That must be a bigger market than for professionals who want the higher levels of customisation. Does that map onto the Stage I, II etc?
Customisers could make more money, and beginners will get better instruments to learn on without the worry of being accused of getting ideas above their station.
If a beginner can afford custom harmonicas and wants them, then buy them. It's their money, they can do with it as they see fit. Personally I think it's a waste of money as I don't believe in most cases that they'll get the best out of them and the skills they need to learn can be learnt perfectly well on a mid priced out of the box harmonica. I also believe they would be sending the customs back constantly for reed replacement and tuning, because as beginners they will be probably blowing too hard and using other bad techniques that will kill the harps quickly. But hey it's their money. If they want to spend £100+ on each custom harp (that's over £1200 if they buy a full set). Then add to that whatever the cost is of shipping them out every few months (or in some cases weeks) for tuning and reed replacements, plus of course the cost of the customiser doing that work for them (let's say for arguments sake it's £30 each harp, each time). Over buying some mid priced Marine Bands at about £30 each (approx £360 for a full set), then learn to tune them up themselves and keep them for further down the line when they die for spare parts. Then who am I too argue. The only thought that comes to my mind regarding that scenario is the quote "A fool and his money are soon parted". But hey what do I know?
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 02, 2015 9:21 AM
Those beginners, always blowing out reeds. At those prices they'd learn pretty quickly to stop doing that then :)
Maybe there is a distinction to be made around raw beginners and beginners who are trying to learn the harmonica as a serious proposition.
As was mentioned above, having just one well set up harp as a reference is valuable. A while ago I took the advice from a teacher who said that the Crossover is pretty close to a custom in that sense (responsive, in tune), and so I got one of those.
There are plenty of independent techs available to adjust new harps if something's questionable, it shouldn't cost that much. The manufacturers also have warranty. Sensible ways to go for beginners with serious intentions, wanting to make sure everything works properly. That's all the average player needs, not customs. Also plenty of free videos available to facilitate learning to handle gapping yourself, once you have an idea of what a properly gapped harp feels like, which a beginner normally won't. Generally if you play a light chord, all reeds should respond evenly. If one is hanging back, close the gap a little until it does. If a reed is late to the party in a light chord, it will negatively affect bending. Improperly adjusted gaps cause bad habits. You're better off down the road if you don't develop them. There's no set time on when one can start realizing the capabilities of a more serious harp setup. Some players are doing amazing things within a year, some still sound like rank beginners after 30 years.
Once again some great advice from Harpwrench. Joe, that part about the light chord is just one example of the many priceless gems of advice, you throw out to people. I have learnt so much from you over the years from those snippets and it's always great, solid, helpful advice. Thank you for sharing some of your wealth of knowledge with us all.
the thread has taken its own direction of course and probably more interesting as a result, but in terms of the OP i dispute the premise that 'stock harps are crap' is a line which is pushed hard on this forum. i'd also dispute that as a group we disrespect the instrument. its an instrument which is generally made rather cheaply to cater to the market. with some attention to detail it can often perform significantly better in terms of responsiveness, so of course people who are specifically interested will discuss how to make it more responsive. thats because we are enthusiasts for the instrument, not because we disrespect it. there are great technicians working on producing wonderfully responsive customised instruments, and its a mark of respect for their work that many are inspired to work on harps. if a beginner player says they cant get 2 draw to play on any of their new 5 pack, nor the original harp they had, people probably will advise them to work on technique and give them some pointers, because the symptom implies a technique issue. but if someone says they got a new harp and they cant get the notes in the 3rd chamber to sound right, its slow to respond and that chamber sounds really airy,they've tried isolating the chamber by various means and its still tough to get a sound from...its not unreasonable to think there is a problem with the harp worth investigating. as far as ive observed, thats pretty much whats likely to happen here. i really dont think there is disrespect for stock harps. (my stock F marine band is virtually untouched..i've had it 2 years and its just about perfect for me. i wont take it apart until it breaks) many of us are enthusiasts, so of course we discuss our interest. its not just harps; you'll regularly see threads on amps, effects, mics and cases, customisation and refitting etc all discussed as enthusiastically as in any harp mod thread. and therell be people who dont care who decide to chime in to share their opinions that those things are distractions from the main game, or just that they don't get it, or to praise the virtues of a stock sm57 or fender brand harp case..or a stock princeton reverb. its not disrespect and negativity frank101, its love and enthusiasm
