dougharps
824 posts
Jan 25, 2015
11:14 AM
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I just was working on installing Low F# Marine Band Deluxe plates on a Crossover body (had a dead reed on the Crossover, and I used the plates as a replacement reed source) and I found the slots to be too short. I decided to try to mount the plates on an aftermarket Special 20 Corian comb I got at a raffle at Harmonica Collective a couple years ago, so no cost to me for the comb. The plates mounted fine on the Spec 20 comb, screw holes lined up and reeds had room to spare. However to make it work I did need to drill out the holes for the cover plates to be mounted . While drilling, the Corian comb broke. It was clearly my fault, though I didn't apply that much pressure when drilling it. I ended up using the original Crossover comb by lengthening the slots using a drill bit. The assembled harp works fine, and I now have a Low F# harp for the $45 cost of the plates.
My question is about Corian as a comb material. I have not jumped on the replacement comb bandwagon so far, but seeing some beautiful harps pictured on the forum I have considered buying combs to upgrade some of my harps. In a forum search I noticed other references to Corian being brittle and I wondered is this really the case? If they are brittle and break more easily than other materials, what comb materials are recommended to be less fragile?
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Doug S.
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Thievin' Heathen
477 posts
Jan 25, 2015
11:28 AM
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With apologies to all the Corian comb guys out there, I dropped mine from work bench height onto a carpet floor. It broke like a potato chip. Obviously, I'm not a good candidate for Corian. Come to think of it, I'm probably not a very good candidate for vintage crystal mike elements either. Fortunately for me, there are many other fine choices. Sadly, Hetrick bamboo is no longer one of them.
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arzajac
1566 posts
Jan 25, 2015
11:43 AM
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"If they are brittle and break more easily than other materials, what comb materials are recommended to be less fragile?"
Dymondwood was a very popular choice a few years ago. It's made of wood veneer held together with phenolic resin. It's waterproof, can be machined and flattened easily, is durable and provides excellent tone when used as a harmonica comb.
But it stinks really bad!
When I searched for a material from which to make combs, I found one that ticked every box on my list of criteria. It's exactly like Dymondwood except it doesn't stink. It's made from recycled paper and natural resins.
I used to offer other choices of materials but they don't come close to my Dark Combs so I abandoned using anything else. I did not want to have to charge more for one product that I did not believe was as good as another one I offered.
I have been asked about Bamboo, but I refuse to make combs out of bamboo flooring material and food-grade bamboo laminate is not always consistent. It's also not possible to mill some of the combs I make out of Bamboo laminate.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jan 25, 2015 11:45 AM
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arzajac
1567 posts
Jan 25, 2015
11:51 AM
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I should mention to Corian fans to not panic! The fragile nature of Corian is a nuisance to harmonica service providers but much less so to harmonica players.
Unless you are taking your harmonica apart, don't worry about it!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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shakeylee
52 posts
Jan 25, 2015
11:53 AM
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theivin heathen ,i liked those hetrick bamboo combs.too bad i can't get more!
dougharps,if corian is too brittle for you,how about brass,aluminum,maple mahogany or acrylic like the http://www.bluemoonharmonicas.com/ combs. they look great!
i have had good experience with the azajac comb.
http://harp.andrewzajac.ca/Combs
-------------------------------------------------------
people,i realize i am beginning to sound like a running add for florida trader and azajac. i assure you i have no connection with either.i am just a fan.
please forgive me.i am just very excited about pimped out harmonicas right now.i have been going through boxes of semi retired harps and bodging them together as well as assembling new harps from new parts.
i just have harmonica fever.i get that way with microphones sometimes too.
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shakeylee
53 posts
Jan 25, 2015
11:59 AM
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oops.i started writing that before azajac posted.doh.
so,i guess corian,once inside the harp,is stable!
i know spiers uses it,so it is probably good!
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florida-trader
619 posts
Jan 25, 2015
12:14 PM
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I will defend Corian as a good material for making harmonica combs. It is true that Corian is more brittle than some other materials. But to compare it to a potato chip is a little bit of a stretch. I have made literally thousands of Corian combs in the past four years and the failure rate on them is very low. We’re talking a small fraction of one percent. I have had as many if not more failures working with hardwood because of quirky grain patterns. In addition to Corian, I also make combs out of aluminum, brass, acrylic and wood. If you are looking for durability, aluminum and brass are hard to beat.
Bamboo combs are a bit of a No-No. Hohner has a patent on bamboo combs so I would stay away from them. At SPAH in 2012 Matt Smart told me that Hohner had politely asked him to cease and desist from making bamboo combs.
Hohner Bamboo Comb Patent
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jan 25, 2015 12:15 PM
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dougharps
825 posts
Jan 25, 2015
12:24 PM
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I don't like the taste of the galvanic action on my one aluminum Promaster, so probably not aluminum. I had heard about the Dymondwood taste, ruling that out. I have now dropped the Corian option due to brittleness. I would not likely replace with wood.
I have considered brass and acrylic combs. Cost will also be an issue. Azajac's material is to be considered, too.
Is acrylic less brittle than Corian, or about the same?
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Doug S.
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nacoran
8230 posts
Jan 25, 2015
12:48 PM
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I've noticed that combs seem to be at their weakest right at the end of the 1 hole at the back. I've split 2 there doing work on them and had one split in the drawer, but in all cases it was without the reed plates on. The reed plates act as a very effective reinforcement. (Nothing I've gotten made by Tom or Andrew has ever had any problem anyway.) And if you are handy enough to be working on your own harps and you do split them, there is always a dab of superglue. (Of course, I glued my fingers the other day trying to fix my mic, so maybe I need to start hiring professionals!- not to each other, just glue all over them.)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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dougharps
826 posts
Jan 25, 2015
1:10 PM
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The plates were mounted on the Corian comb with the 3 screws holding it. I wrapped the assembly with plastic wrap to keep any shavings from getting in the reeds. I had no difficulty with the pilot holes, and the regular holes drilled OK. I did rock the bit lightly to assure that the cover screws would seat properly, and it is likely that doing that caused the cracking. With the 3 screws in place and no cover screws stabilizing it, the end of the comb was vulnerable. The back of the 1 hole is exactly where it broke. I thought about trying to super glue it, but was concerned about getting it exactly matched and maintaining flatness after gluing. I may try anyway... nothing to lose!
Is acrylic more stable than Corian in a diatonic comb, or would it be vulnerable to cracking about the same as the Corian comb?
I have an acrylic combed Hering 6164 that has survived several stupid instances of me dropping the harp. I once even sheared off a cover bolt in the inset when I dropped it, but the comb has not cracked so far.
Yes, I know that we are not supposed to drop harps. It just happens now and then...
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 25, 2015 1:11 PM
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arzajac
1568 posts
Jan 25, 2015
1:31 PM
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"I had a lot more breakage problem when I used dymondwood."
In what way? Dropping a bare comb, drilling a bare comb, customer returns of assembled harps, etc...? What does "breakage problem" mean?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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arzajac
1569 posts
Jan 25, 2015
1:37 PM
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"Is acrylic less brittle than Corian, or about the same?"
Acrylic is less dense than Corian. I made a few combs out of acrylic (Plexiglass) and I dropped them once or twice. I never broke one and they are tough.
I flattened them by hand to ensure they were airtight. I got them to be as flat and airtight as my Dark combs but I wasn't happy with the tone. The tone was weaker than I wanted it to be. Those Plex combs were 6.2mm thick - a little thicker than a stock MB comb.
"They look terrific, offer quick response and sound great, but they don't offer the same juicy timbre as my Dark combs. They are most certainly a huge upgrade from stock combs and will add some punch to your harps.
If you want a comb that gets the job done at an economical price, this is the comb for you."
I sold them for about $10 each.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jan 25, 2015 2:04 PM
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SuperBee
2360 posts
Jan 25, 2015
2:55 PM
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Doug, i know MP has successfully repaired a corian comb. he said it functioned just as well as an unbroken one iirc
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florida-trader
620 posts
Jan 25, 2015
5:49 PM
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Acrylic is indeed less brittle than Corian. And yes, Corian can be easily repaired with superglue. Put a piece of wax paper on a flat surface and then lay the two pieces of the comb on the wax paper. Apply a liberal amount of superglue to the broken area. Since the two pieces are essentially 3D mirror images of each other they will fit together perfectly. Afer the glue cures you can flat sand the comb to remove any extra that may have oozed out. The wax paper prevents the comb from sticking to the flat surface. I have a couple of Corian combs repaired in this fashion on my own harps. Even though they are perfectly fine and like new I would not ship one to a customer but I have no issue using them on my own harps.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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dougharps
827 posts
Jan 25, 2015
5:56 PM
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Thank you ALL for the information and advice! If I had been more careful I wouldn't have needed to post, and wouldn't have learned all this. I will try the repair suggested. The wax paper is a good idea. Thanks for suggesting it. I had thought about it, but didn't know how well it would work.
I will also go through my harps and pick a couple that could benefit from me trying out different replacement combs. A few more gigs and I will be ready to order.
This forum is such an amazing resource for harmonica musicians!
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 25, 2015 5:59 PM
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SuperBee
2364 posts
Jan 25, 2015
10:21 PM
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Tom, thats exactly what MP said to me about the comb he broke; i.e. it was perfectly fine when repaired but he could not use it on the harp he was repairing for a customer (me) and had to buy me a new one. now that i am repairing for other folks i have a keener appreciation of how that feels
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shakeylee
58 posts
Jan 25, 2015
10:42 PM
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i just had an MSBH comb break while drilling,so wood is not my answer :)
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mastercaster
112 posts
Jan 26, 2015
12:16 AM
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fwiw , bamboo flooring would be my last choice .. after seeing 2 small hotel projects who tried using bamboo flooring , supposedly a high end product .. Both had warping issues due to sun exposure (and no subfloor), de-lamination problems and, both got moisture damage/mold ..
there are other materials better suited for combs ..imo
Hohner's suppliers may have used a system whereby they shred the bamboo , cook the shredded bamboo in an oven to dry it .. and then glue it back together under pressure .. probably holds up ok in the long term ..
bamboo flooring is not to my knowledge produced this way .. yet ..
Last Edited by mastercaster on Jan 26, 2015 12:18 AM
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SuperBee
2368 posts
Jan 26, 2015
3:02 AM
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hi shakeylee, not all wood is created equal, especially the doussie(?) wood used in blues harp combs. that stuff will break while its still in the harp. ime it doesn't swell which may be its only good attribute as comb material. it needs very careful handling
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shakeylee
59 posts
Jan 26, 2015
6:51 AM
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superbee,i just found that out!! it was the only MS comb i had lying around,and i had a set of plates i got cheap. i decided to drill it to accept more screws,and found out why they don't :) .not quite pear wood,is it?haha
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florida-trader
622 posts
Jan 26, 2015
7:36 AM
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Here's a little tip for you on drilling - particularly when you are trying to drill a hole through a tine - as I suspect you were doing
First, it really helps to use some oil to lubricate the drill bit. Second, don't try to drill all the way through in one pass. The cutting action of the tip of the drill bit creates debris (sawdust or Corian dust). At the bottom of the hole the debris can get trapped and it creates outward pressure which will actually split the material. If you're drilling a big block of wood that won't happen. But if you are drilling through a thin tine it will. So what you do is drill a little and then back the bit out to allow the debris to clear. Drill a little more and then back it out again. The oil also enables the debris to float out of the hole. It's the same principle as using wet sand paper. The water floats the dust away keeping the cutting edge of the paper exposed instead of getting all gummed up. If you are patient you can drill holes in those doucie wood MS combs without ruining them.
The same is true for plactic or Corian or acrylic. You have to be patient. It only takes a minute.
One last thought. A drill press is also very very helpful. You have far more control and you are guarateed to drill at a 90 degree angle. With the repeated in and out action you want to go in at the same angle every time. Anyone who is doing any work on reed plates or combs should seriously consider investing in a small drill press. You can find them for less than $100 new or you can go on a treasure hunt to your local pawn shop and pick one up cheap.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jan 26, 2015 7:41 AM
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hvyj
2620 posts
Jan 27, 2015
4:12 PM
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IMHO, the biggest problem with OOB harps is the inconsistency of how flat the stock combs are. So, I certainly appreciate custom combs. My favorite comb materials are aluminum and dymonwood. And the Sjoeberg and Reynolds dymonwood combs I have don't have any bad odors. Also, I have to say that Matt Smart's Hetrick bamboo combs are truly excellent.
I have Corian combs on the performing set of Spiers GMs that I gig with. Corian doesn't really appeal to me, but Joe's combs are excellent and they have been very durable.
I'm not much for do it yourself arts and crafts projects, but I over time I acquired a set of 9 Olives that didn't sound as good as my set of Hammonds. So I replaced the stock combs on the Olives with Blue Moon black aluminum combs and sanded the plates before installing the new combs. WOW! Improved response and GREATLY improved TONE.I expected the improvement in response, but the better tone was a remarkable and pleasant surprise.
Before installing the Blue Moon aluminum combs I tried one of arzajac's dark combs. VERY nice comb, but I like aluminum better--purely subjective.
I don't buy custom combs for their looks--FLATNESS is the driving criteria for me. FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 27, 2015 4:20 PM
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STME58
1163 posts
Jan 27, 2015
4:49 PM
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After flatness I wonder if stiffness, which is usually accompanied by brittleness, has a large effect on the tone. Has anyone ever tried glass, jade or onyx for a comb?
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hvyj
2621 posts
Jan 27, 2015
5:46 PM
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After flatness, I think DENSITY of the comb material makes the most difference. Before I got into custom harps I bought a Fabulous which has a brass comb. Besides being heavy, the brass comb was very loud and bright.
I really like aluminum combs. Brass, not so much.
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Sherwin
194 posts
Jan 27, 2015
8:15 PM
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I think it's mass that matters
Michael
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A440
321 posts
Jan 27, 2015
8:39 PM
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Interesting discussion. How does rosewood compare, as used on the Firebreath?
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A440
322 posts
Jan 27, 2015
8:46 PM
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I thought the consensus view was that comb material does not effect tone, it just determines airtightness and responsiveness. (Except for hollow plastic which resonates). Does acrylic really have a different tone from corian? Also: there is tone perceive by the player, and tone perceived by the listener - these can be different.
Last Edited by A440 on Jan 27, 2015 8:50 PM
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florida-trader
624 posts
Jan 28, 2015
5:12 AM
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I hesitate to open this can of worms but the “consensus view” that comb material does not affect tone is only true among those who believe that tone material does not affect tone. Among those of us who believe that comb material DOES affect tone, the “consensus view” is that it does.
At SPAH 2013 I hosted a workshop called “The Great Comb Debate”. I prepared four sets of five brand new harmonicas – Golden Melodys (in D), Marine Band Deluxes (in C), Marine Band Crossovers (in G) and Suzuki Manjis (in A) – with five different combs each – Stock, Corian, Brass, Aluminum and Acrylic. In the workshop, Todd Parrott demonstrated the five Golden Melodys, Michael Rubin demonstrated the five Crossovers, Richard Sleigh demonstrated the five MBD’s and Brandon Bailey demonstrated the five Manjis. About 30 people participated. A short survey at the beginning of the workshop revealed that the room was evenly divided between “Believers” and “Non-Believers”. It took less than five minutes to convert the Non-Believers. The tone of the GM with the Brass comb played by Todd was noticeably louder and “brighter”. By the end of the workshop, the “consensus view” of the participants was that the metal combed harmonicas – Aluminum and Brass (especially the Brass) – were louder and brighter.
The workshop was held on Wednesday afternoon. For the remainder of SPAH I had the 20 harps available at my vendor’s booth for anyone who wanted to do their own taste test. So over the course of the next three days dozens tried the harps and did their own tests. Clearly, as a businessman, my objective was to sell combs. However, it did not matter to me whether a potential customer preferred Wood or Corian or Brass or Acrylic or Hogany or Aluminum. I make them all! So rather than attempt to influence customers toward one material or another I just listened and observed. The feedback was entirely consistent with the workshop.
The adjectives used to describe the combs were all over the place. Many people commented that they could hear differences between the ABS Plastic of the GM vs. Corian; or the Bamboo of the Crossover vs. Acrylic; or the Composite Wood/Resin Manji comb vs. Corian, But those lines were very blurred (no consensus view). The most pronounced differences were between Metal and All Other. Bear in mind that different only means “Better” or “Worse” according to your preference. Some people like the tone of a brass or aluminum comb. Some don’t. But there is a difference.
Finally, I recently celebrated my four year anniversary in the comb business. I have made and sold many thousands of combs. Those transactions have sparked innumerable conversations with harmonica enthusiasts – mostly email but a lot of phone conversations as well. (We harmonica players surely obsess over our instruments! I find it all very fascinating indeed. ) Again, the feedback I get from my customers is entirely consistent with what I have stated above.
Here's one guy who belives that the brass combs are brighter and louder.
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jan 28, 2015 10:32 AM
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harpoon_man
86 posts
Jan 28, 2015
5:47 AM
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I attended Tom's comb taste test seminar at SPAH (I think it was 2013), and my impressions were consistent with Tom's report above. To my ears, the wood and plastic combs sounded more mellow and softer, while the metal combs sounded brighter and more defined. I have bought several of the Blue Moon aluminum combs and have been very pleased with the sound and perfomance.
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florida-trader
625 posts
Jan 28, 2015
10:36 AM
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@ harpoon_man - You are correct (not 2012 as I originally stated). It was 2013. I have edited my post to make accurate.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Diggsblues
1630 posts
Jan 28, 2015
11:35 AM
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I have several corian combs from BlueMoon
and really like them. I have one of the old special
20 combs and I saw no problem with them. It made a special 20 a lot like a Marine Band. I wish they still
had them since they were cheaper. LOL
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Chinn
120 posts
Jan 29, 2015
10:32 AM
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At one time in my life, I was a game call (duck call) maker. I manufactured both hunting calls, and competition calls. Both are effectively very highly tuned free reed musical instruments.
I made calls from typical tonewoods, acrylic and Corian.
In the mid-90's, I began making calls from Corian cut-off's I got from a local counter shop. They made an awesome sounding competition call. I managed to get the attention of Dupont, the manufacturer of Corian and got what I'd call an 'unofficial endorsement' from them. They provided me material for free, and tech help. I eventually sold a very large set of calls that was given to their board of directors on a duck hunting trip they all attended.
However, due to two issues, I eventually stopped making Corian calls. First, during machining on the lathe, they did come apart on occasion. This was due to the thinness of the parts I was making and no fault of the material. I was asking it to do something it was not designed for. Second issue is that any call that got dropped shattered. Hunting is a rough business and things get dropped, so the two things don't match up well.
For a harmonica, I think its a great material (though I don't have any Corian combs of my own, just acrylic, alu and 'dark' combs) The sandwich construction of the harmonica protects the comb from any brittleness issues, and tone should be good.
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