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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Wooden cover plates
Wooden cover plates
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technosculpt
1 post
Jan 12, 2015
8:18 PM
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Hello all,
This is my first post here to the forums, so be gentle. :) I apologize ahead of time for the rambling nature of my post.
After noodling on my harps for 3-4 years, I've decided to combine them with my first love: building stuff. To that end, I am in the process of designing and fabricating some new cover plates. I may go so far as to make steel ones, but at the moment I'm interested in wooden ones due to there greater accessibility to me.
I made some replacement, wooden (maple) combs for a couple of my Special 20's and the difference in comfort was dramatic. I didn't really notice much difference in sound quality. There may have been ever so slightly a touch of an change, but I am reluctant to call it an improvement, just different. I just don't think there's enough material in the comb to dramatically affect the tonal quality. Tone, really, comes from the player's embouchure. (At least I think it does.)
That leads me to the cover plates. My guess is, the cover plates will have a greater impact on the tone than the comb. I'm curious if others have experience with this or even have their own theories. I know I saw a brief comment from Todd Parrot about this, but for the life of me I cannot find that thread anymore.
So, the plan is the make some designs, 3D print them for testing of comfort then proceed to the real deal once the design is finalized. Along the way, I might just end up building a CNC mill, too, to make my job easier. :)
I have no idea how many other folks would be interested in a project like this. Since I see so little on the web about wooden combs, my guess is that there isn't much. But if you are, speak up. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter.
Last Edited by technosculpt on Jan 12, 2015 8:19 PM
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Thievin' Heathen
468 posts
Jan 12, 2015
8:52 PM
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I have one of the Suzukis (Pure Harp?) with rosewood cover plates. Due to my tendency to drop things, I seldom play it. Other than it being a new Suzuki, I don't recall hearing a dramatic tone difference.
Maybe I should go ahead and try to wear the thing out and cry in my beer when I drop it and crack a cover. It's not doing me any good staying in it's box.
I am not in the market for custom covers. It is just not in my budget. Custom combs however, are the cat's meow.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jan 12, 2015 8:55 PM
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JustFuya
692 posts
Jan 12, 2015
9:12 PM
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How about a see-thru cover for those beautifully colored combs? Added bonus: a better view of troubled reeds.
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Todd Parrott
1284 posts
Jan 12, 2015
11:25 PM
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Cover plates affect the tone of the harp much more than the comb material, but in the end it's the player who is responsible for his or her tone, as there are many factors.
That being said, I'd love to see someone start offering custom cover plates. I also have 3 Dortel harps with wooden covers, and the wood doesn't dampen the tone at all like I initially thought it would. I have more of an interest in metal cover plates, but it would still be interesting to try some wooden covers with varying shapes and openness to see how they sound. When metal cover plates have come up in previous conversations, it seems that the expense of making them has been an issue, though I know Joe Filisko used to make his own brass covers, which were very cool-looking.
Another thing about tone, and this is just my opinion based on my experience; you're not going to get a complete idea of a harmonica's tone just by listening to it in your face while you're playing. It's important to capture a good quality recording as well, and listen to the playback.
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Mahcks
27 posts
Jan 13, 2015
5:37 AM
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Those Pure Harp cover plates are thick. If there is a difference in tone, I'm willing to bet it's because of the size and shape under the covers rather than material. Vents are probably another big factor.
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barbequebob
2815 posts
Jan 13, 2015
10:59 AM
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I remember many years back there was a custom Lee Oskar harp covers made by a long defunct Harley's Harps (if memory serves me correct) that used wood covers. I haven't tried them so I can't give much info beyond that.
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Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Goldbrick
819 posts
Jan 13, 2015
11:38 AM
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Isnt rosewood toxic to breathe ? I know luthiers who are very careful to use protection sanding it. Not sure if I would wanna be licking it and breathing thru it
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technosculpt
2 posts
Jan 13, 2015
2:59 PM
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I have some experience with exotic woods and they are NASTY while machining them. The dust is wicked toxic. Even Spanish Cedar, the stuff used in cigar boxes and humidors, causes my sinuses to burn after just a couple of short cuts on the table saw.
That said, once you stop making dust and put a finish on them, they are pretty benign. I've been researching appropriate finishes, too. Turns out, once a finish is completely cured, a lot of them are considered safe. Now the fun part... Complete curing can take a month!
I had thought about doing metal ones, and may still do so, but unless you want cover plates made of soft metal such as aluminum or brass, you would need steel forming dies which are pretty expensive. Unless, of course, you have connections or your own CNC milling machine, which I'm am working on building. (Yeah, me!)
I'm likewise interested in how the cover plates affect the tone. My first test will be pretty simple, though. I just want something to work. If you all are interested, I can post some periodic updates. Be forewarned, though, those alleged updates will be sparse and sporadic.
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Rontana
23 posts
Jan 13, 2015
4:11 PM
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Yeah, it's the dust . . . the tiny particles. That said, toxicity depends on the type of wood. Some are toxic, and some aren't. Some people are allergic, and some aren't.
Once it's finished though, there's no worry.
Curing times are long. If I'm doing a basic shellac on a stringed critter (usually about 10 coats) I let the instrument cure for at least three weeks to a month before polishing. That's primarily to let it harden, not due to any toxicity concerns.
I wear a heavy duty mask if I'm gonna create a lot of dust (high-speed spindle sanding is worst) and always if I'm doing anything with metal (especially aluminum . . . nasty stuff).
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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Steve Harvell
184 posts
Jan 13, 2015
6:16 PM
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Here is a short video showing my set of "Hardwood Harmonicas", these are no longer made but they play awesome. There has been some discussion on "Modern Blues Harmonica" about harmonicas with wooden covers like the Suzuki Firebreath. I do not like wooden combs because I have never found wooden combs that the finish would not wear off and leave me with a weird woody taste in my mouth.
These wooden covers have a finish on them that has not worn off with around 20 years of playing and when I first started inquiring the maker said it was a non toxic finish but these harps are my main squeeze now. Now that I have tried one of the "Blue Moon Harmonicas" brass combs I am now in love with another woman, I mean harmonica. I have just ordered a Blue Moon Acrylic Comb and looking forward to seeing how they sound compared to the Blue Moon Brass Comb that I LOVE :)
Last Edited by Steve Harvell on Jan 13, 2015 7:29 PM
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technosculpt
3 posts
Jan 13, 2015
7:21 PM
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Thanks for the quick tour! The harps sounded pretty clear to me. Of course, the compression in the YouTube video will likely destroy any subtle nuances, but they still sounded good.
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Steve Harvell
185 posts
Jan 13, 2015
8:27 PM
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This video is a few years old (almost all of my videos I am using the "Hardwood Harps") but I am using a "Hardwood Harmonica" in it amplified :)
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rbeetsme
1611 posts
Jan 14, 2015
4:21 AM
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A440
299 posts
Jan 14, 2015
9:35 AM
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I've met a few guys playing Dortel harps with wooden covers. They sound nice, and guys playing them love them.
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BigDogDaddyD
2 posts
Sep 30, 2019
9:50 AM
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Just picked up an old "Hardwood Harmonica", and it sounds beautiful. I have experimented on my chromatics with different types of wood covers. But once I have sanded the inside area smooth and polyurethane coated (or acrylic, shellac, etc...), they seem to sound the same. Resonance is something my old deaf ears have trouble with though.
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florida-trader
1450 posts
Sep 30, 2019
12:27 PM
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I wonder whatever happened to our friend technosculpt. He promised his posts would be sporadic and infrequent. Well, he is a man of his word. We haven’t heard from him in almost 5 years. I am having a little fun at his expense, but I mean no ill will. He certainly seemed sincere and like a lot of us, had an idea, had some skills, had some time and started to experiment. Trust me when I tell you that it ain’t easy to get something like this off the ground. Anyone who heads down that road will ultimately find that, more than anything else, it is an expensive exercise. If all you want to do is make a few combs or cover plates for yourself, you can do it without spending a lot of money. You can make stuff out of scrap material you might have laying around your garage and some hand tools – if you are skilled enough. If you want to make products that are consistently high quality, you will have to abandon the hand made approach and invest in some equipment – as technosculpt alluded to in his post. He was thinking about building a CNC “mill”. He probably meant CNC Router. You can find DIY CNC Router Kits all over the place for $200-$300. A CNC milling machine is typically used to cut metal. Routers cut wood. I don’t think that had he purchased and built a CNC mill, as he put it, that he would have been able to make covers out of metal. Even still, if you are motivated enough, you can figure out a way to either make them yourself or have someone else make them for you. Again, we’re still probably only talking about spending a few hundred dollars. If you decide to start making this type of product and offering it for sale, then inevitably the Economy of Scale has to kick in. You can drive your unit cost down to a reasonable number if you are willing to make a lot of units. So, the cost per unit, in the case, a custom cover, will go down, but in order to get the lower price, you have to order or make a lot of them, which means your cash outlay will go up. Then, you have to develop a system for selling them – maybe a website – which also costs money. You can see where I am going with this. I speak from experience.
Moving on, let’s talk about custom covers. Some have commented on tonal properties of wood. Others say they prefer metal. I think Joe Filisko made covers out of brass sheet metal which he bent into shape by either using a hand seamer or a brake. Joe is an experienced machinist, so he likely had access to a brake. He also did some intricate etching on the covers. Real works of art. But I digress. Here are some questions to ponder.
1. What should the covers be made of – wood, metal or other material?
2. How thick should the material be? Thicker than a Marine Band cover? Thinner? How much? Does the thickness matter?
3. What is the ideal shape?
4. How big should the opening at the back be? Bigger than a Marine Band? Smaller than a Marine Band? About the same? If you make it the same size and shape as a Marine Band cover, why bother, unless you believe that wood is the magic elixir and make them out of that.
5. Should the covers be vented or non-vented?
I’ve been down this road with the Jason Ricci Limited Edition Harps that I made a few years ago. I had to answer all these questions. I did. I created a design, made some prototypes and ultimately produced a grand total of 19 harps. They were very expensive to make. Very. They sold out very quickly but was that because of how good they were or because of Jason’s popularity? The feedback I got from the people who bought them was 100% positive and most asked me when I was going to make more. That was about 3 years ago. I haven’t yet. But the subject is of interest to me. Anyone care to share some thoughts? It all goes into the database. You just never know where a good idea is going to come from.
I’m listening.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 30, 2019 1:02 PM
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nacoran
10171 posts
Oct 01, 2019
11:04 AM
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There do seem to be several people making wood covers now. There are a couple guys in Europe (Dotel, I know, I forget the other's name) and a guy down in South America.
When you ask about the prices they are always 'private message me' though, which always makes my wallet twitch.
I've swapped the combs and covers on harps, and based on the Special 20 vs. Piedmont cover comparison, I can say, covers do make a big difference.
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Nate
Facebook
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florida-trader
1453 posts
Oct 02, 2019
7:01 AM
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Nate - no doubt those custom harps with the beautiful wood covers are expensive. When you consider the amount of time it takes to build them, as opposed to simply bolting a set of stock covers onto a stock comb, they are probably working for somewhere around double minimum wage.
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Tom Halchak
Blue Moon Harmonicas
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Philosofy
925 posts
Oct 04, 2019
11:18 AM
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I'm dreaming of the day I can make some nice wooden cover harps. My CNC is finally working, and this weekend I make my first attempt at a comb.
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Mahcks
107 posts
Oct 04, 2019
1:26 PM
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I made 3 sets of covers a while back and besides custom ergonomics, custom vents, and just looking gorgeous; I can't justify them.
http://imgur.com/a/E8zSg5j
Left: D Joe Spiers stage II golden melody; corian comb; snakewood; fillet front; 6 small vents to show off grain
Middle: G Plunz special 20 from Blue Moon; brass comb; padauk; chamfer front; 2 long vents
Right: D X-Reed sub30 Z1; corian comb; zebrawood; chamfer front and sides, backs are angled slightly; 4 large vents
They are all finished with shellac. I milled them with a Proxxon MF70. Unfortunately the machine did not survive the humidity of my climate, but I'll offer some tips for anyone planning to try this.
I had no previous experience machining or woodworking when I started. Buy some 3-in-1 oil and take care of your tools. Buy plenty of bits and change them before they get dull. Buy lots of masks and a shop-vac. All dust is toxic and most woods are sensitizers; meaning you can develop allergies to them the longer you expose yourself to the dust and oils. Even with proper ventilation, outside might be the best place for your milling. Knife scales are what you want to search for if you don't have access to a fully stocked shop. Shellac is great and easy to work with. Wear gloves. Mix it with denatured alcohol. Plan 3 steps ahead how you're going to hold a small part while its drying. I used a board with chop sticks to hold them by the screw holes.
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dchurch
303 posts
Oct 05, 2019
9:37 PM
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Nice work Mahcks, thanks for posting the photo link. It's sad to learn your little Praxxon died, R.I.P.
I think the snake wood looks very cool with the small scale of a harmonica.
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Harmonica Mutes & Accessories
www.dBombMute.com
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Sloppy1
47 posts
Oct 06, 2019
5:57 AM
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Harmo Harmonicas now offers some custom choices on combs and covers and they have some wood covers as a option.
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BigDogDaddyD
3 posts
Oct 20, 2019
10:49 PM
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Found this thread and have enjoyed the creativity and knowledge from all you folks. Just thought I'd share. I play with wood and different resins and silicone molds. I just recently picked up a diatonic G harp made by Hardwood Harmonicas, and it has renewed my interest in wood covers. A few years ago, I made my first diatonic wood cover by using veneers in layers. If you're not aware, you can chemically or steam wet a thin piece of wood to be limp and flexible to the point of a thin limp leather type feel. I used these thin wood veneers by draping them over my metal covers and allowed them to harden. Once they were dry, I separated the two. I could add additional layers to get the thickness I wanted, sand and trim them, and finish with polyurethane, shellac, or whatever. I progressed to chromatics with the same success. My ears are not good enough to notice a difference in the sound produced with the new wood covers. But I enjoy the feel and look. Now I'm trying to recreate the Hardwood Harmonicas comb with the extended circular mouthpiece. Theirs appear to be injection molded. I don't have that technology available to me, nor do I have a 3D printer. So I'm trying to use my silicone mold skills, and make a 3 piece mold to recreate their fantastic comb. I decided I liked the clear combs awhile back, and didn't want to pay the cost that the different suppliers wanted for theirs. So I decided to make my own. It is really very simple once you figure out the different types of mold and resin materials. Lots of fun too. Now I can easily create any color. You can also add all sorts of pigments, glitters, etc... They have mother-of-pearl, holographic pigments, metal powders, and so on. I've made several that include fine wood sawdust particles. I even put LED lights in one. The diatonics are a lot easier than the chromatic molds. But it can be done. By the way, if anyone has a source on any Hardwood Harmonicas harps, combs, covers, or other pieces, feel free to contact me at marcdickerson1234@gmail.com. Thanks gang.
Last Edited by BigDogDaddyD on Oct 20, 2019 11:00 PM
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