Rontana
8 posts
Jan 07, 2015
4:30 AM
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I’m in the beginner stage (age 55 . . . late bloomer I guess) and have been making good progress via Adam’s lessons, a few one-on-one lessons with a teacher, and lots of practice. But, one technique is frustrating the hell out of me.
I seem unable to do splits correctly. For example, when trying to do a 1 and 4 split I consistently draw the 5 hole as well. I’ve tried blocking holes 2 and 3 with the tip of my tongue, holding the harp against my teeth (as in one of Adam's vids), using the flat top of my tongue (a teacher said to imagine I was licking an envelope), holding the harp deeper, more shallow, harder on the right . . . on and on. No joy. I either block too many holes or too few, and (again) always have the five hole coming in to play
Any ideas here on what I’m doing wrong? Or would someone be so kind as to try and describe just how the heck to do this (or more correctly, how they do it . . . tongue position, different embouchure, etc).
Thanks
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harpwrench
960 posts
Jan 07, 2015
5:24 AM
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http://www.filiskostore.com/page/480389598
Check the Filisko TBT out, there's also a PDF available describing how to roll your own.
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High performance harmonicas.
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JonV
23 posts
Jan 07, 2015
5:51 AM
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Start by playing the full chord on holes 1-4 (blow or draw). Make sure all notes are sounding equally.
Slowly move your tongue so that you can feel the comb tine between holes 2&3 with the tip of your tongue.]
What happens?
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Rontana
9 posts
Jan 07, 2015
6:15 AM
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Thanks John . . . doing a full chord on 1-4 sounds fine, when but my tongue hits the post between 2-3, the five starts sounding.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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JonV
24 posts
Jan 07, 2015
7:53 AM
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Good, so the problem is identified!
Can you feel what's causing the 5 to sound?
Is it the toungue expanding the opening of the mouth?
The harp should stay at the same depth in the mouth (should already be deep to be able to get all 4 notes), and the tongue and everything else should be as relaxed as possible
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Rontana
10 posts
Jan 07, 2015
8:32 AM
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Perhaps it could be expanding, but it doesn't feel that way. It feels like (odd as this will sound) air is bouncing off my tongue, exiting the right side of my mouth, and sounding the 5.
I do have the harp deep . . . no problem getting 4 notes.
How do most people position their tongue to cover the 2-3? Straight on with the tip, flat, something else. Perhaps I'm using too much pressure.
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nacoran
8199 posts
Jan 07, 2015
8:35 AM
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If the 1 4 is sounding, but you are getting some 5 in there it sounds like you need to focus on the right side of your mouth. When you play it, use your right thumb to sort check the corner of your mouth. I bet the corner is getting pushed open by your tongue movement. There are a few ways to deal with it. One is move your mouth all a little to the left and squish your tongue a bit so you don't block the 1. Another is to angle the harp a little. Bring the top end of the harp out a little bit. That will push the 5 hole away from your mouth a little. Focus on just using the tip of your tongue. If you have to, stand in front of a mirror and tip the harp down to get some size perspective. If you have a fat tongue you might want to roll it a bit to bring the sides in a bit. Not for blocking 2 holes, but sometimes for blocking one middle hole I seem to twist the tip of my tongue a bit, sort of to a 90 degree angle, so it is presenting a narrower surface.
Everyone's mouth is a little different, so you may have to play around a bit to see what works for you.
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Nate
Facebook
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Greg Heumann
2931 posts
Jan 07, 2015
8:38 AM
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Jon's approach is the right one. In the end, there is no rocket science. Just plain simple physics. The 5 hole is sounding because somehow, EITHER:
1) When you THOUGHT you were just playing holes 1-4 you were actually playing the 5 too and you need to narrow your embouchure some, or
2) someway when you move your tongue it is opening up that corner of your mouth.
Solving these problems takes what you are doing - practice, notice, think, correct, practice. Just hang in there and you will get it!
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
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HarveyHarp
627 posts
Jan 07, 2015
9:16 AM
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Joe, roll your own what?
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HarveyHarp
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Rontana
11 posts
Jan 07, 2015
9:16 AM
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Edit: and thanks to the rest of you as well. Just saw your posts
Thanks for your help, Jon. I appreciate it
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
Last Edited by Rontana on Jan 07, 2015 9:17 AM
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harpwrench
961 posts
Jan 07, 2015
9:32 AM
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Harvey- the tongue block trainer, there's an article about making your own from a plastic jug handle
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ridge
582 posts
Jan 07, 2015
10:25 AM
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+1 to JonV suggestions, except pressure wouldn't be the way I'd describe it. Minimal contact is required to make this happen.
What happens if you do the 1/4 split on the blow? Do you have the same problem?
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Ridge's YouTube
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Rontana
12 posts
Jan 07, 2015
11:10 AM
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Hi Ridge . . . .
Yup, exactly the same on both blow and draw. Pretty confounding to me.
As an experiment (to make sure my ears weren't playing tricks) I covered the five with a piece of tape and did a 1-4 blow draw. That sounded correct.
Took the tape off and began trying again. Same pesky 5 kicked in immediately.
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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Pistolcat
751 posts
Jan 07, 2015
1:20 PM
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Keep at it four hours a day for a week straight. I bet you got it by then... Just splits.
When you get a handle on 1-4, 2-5 and 3-6 you can start with 4-8, 5-9 and 6-10 draw splits.
Then break out your chrome.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Rontana
13 posts
Jan 07, 2015
6:31 PM
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Pistolcat . . . now that's optimism.
Thanks to all for the advice and support. I truly appreciate your taking the time to assist a novice.
Will just keep practicing. I'm sure it will work out eventually
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Marr's Guitars
Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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Mirco
241 posts
Jan 07, 2015
7:48 PM
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Coincidentally, David Barrett's tip of the day on bluesharmonica.com is on just this subject. It's not exactly an answer to your question, but it's an interesting tip about checking if your octave is sounding right. Here's what Dave has to say:
"It can be difficult to know if what you’re playing is correct when experimenting with octaves and other splits. The most common split is the split-4, where you place your lips over four holes and block the two in the middle for what’s commonly an octave. But… the 2/5 (playing the 2 draw and 5 draw at the same time, with the tongue blocking holes 3 and 4) is not an octave and can be hard to hear if you’re playing it correctly due to its dissonant nature. How about when you’re playing an octave on the high draws, such s the 3/7 (split-5). Or how about a split-3, where you would play holes 2 and 4, only blocking hole 3 with the tip of your tongue?
Here’s my solution…
Grab a harmonica of the same key you’re playing and use it for reference. Use painter’s masking tape (will not leave a residue on the harmonica) and place it on the comb of the reference harmonica. Smoothen out the tape and press down the tape on the mouthpiece, making it easier to see the holes. Using a pencil, poke holes in the holes of the harmonica you want to sound. Now use the reference harmonica to hear what it’s supposed to sound like. Use your regular harmonica and try to match the same sound. Using the Filisko Tongue Block Trainer (http://www.filiskostore.com/page/480389598) is also very helpful to see what your tongue needs to do."
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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CarlA
646 posts
Jan 07, 2015
7:54 PM
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There is no "secret" fix. It's simple practice. You will suck at split octaves at first, and you will feel like you have three tongues and 4 lips. But persevere and they will become second nature. At least, that's what worked for me ;)
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indigo
34 posts
Jan 07, 2015
8:36 PM
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"put your harp to your tongue not your tongue to the harp" is a tip that worked for me.(and your tone improves too)
I am primarily a purser and don't find the very slight movement involved in pulling the harp into my mouth for octaves to be an awkward thing to do.
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Rontana
14 posts
Jan 08, 2015
4:30 AM
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I think we may have both a cause and a solution here. Perhaps this will be of some use to anyone having a similar problem.
Though I can’t take one-on-one lessons nearly as often as I’d like, I do take one occasionally. Got hold of my teacher and he explained how, in his experience, people tend to play louder notes/have more control on the side of their mouth that does most of the chewing.
This is especially pertinent for me, as about a decade ago I had a tooth pulled toward the back of my mouth. There’s a gap there, which causes me to chew on the left (fixing it costs a minimum of $5,000 . . . which is beyond my budget). Thus, it would make sense that my right-side lip muscles are weak.
The answer, like with most things, seems to just keep working on it – and try to avoid getting too frustrated - until I’ve enough strength there to keep that right corner closed.
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Offering custom-built Cigar Box Guitars for the discriminating player of obscure musical unstruments
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