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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Reed Gapping 1st Marine Band
Reed Gapping 1st Marine Band
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Palmetto
1 post
Nov 03, 2014
1:31 PM
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Hi,
Newbie here. I've been playing for over a year now. I've learned mainly from materials I bought from Adam Gussow, Jon Gindick and Annie Raines. I've also spent countless hours watching YouTube videos, so thanks to Gussow, Gindick, Jason Ricci, Lee Sankey, Dan Gage, Joe Spiers, Ronnie Shellist and all the others who share their knowledge. I also appreciate the posters on this forum, and have learned a lot just searching the archives.
After playing Sp 20s only, I got my first MB key of D. The 10 blow would hardly sound at all. 2 draw was a little hard to bend and 3 draw bend was really weak sounding and hard to bend. I had to pull harder on the MB in D than my sp 20 in G. Both 2 and 3 draw made squealing/ ringing sounds if bent all the way down.
I initially tried increasing the 2 and 3 draw gaps per Gussow's video, but this made it worse. I then studied Joe Spier's videos and Andrew Zajac's website and decreased the gaps. Narrowing the 3 blow gap seemed to really do the trick. After a few hours with a toothpick and some luck, I got all holes and bends to play similarly to a sp 20.
I have two questions:
(1) If I bend 2 and 3 draw all the way down, past 2" and 3''', it still squeals a bit at times. Not a problem since it is past the notes, but I'm curious as to why it happens.
(2) I'm also curious as to why Gussow increases the draw gaps on his MBs to improve play-ability, while others set them much narrower. I realize playing styles/ preferences vary, but it seems like a huge difference.
Thanks, Hal
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Mahcks
15 posts
Nov 03, 2014
2:49 PM
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As for number 2; a lower gap makes for quick attack, but it will cause the reed to choke easily. Choking your draw reed will kill your bend. That's been my observation.
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Meaux Jeaux
15 posts
Nov 03, 2014
4:19 PM
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Helleaux Hal,If the squealing is intermittent it could be that you don't have your mouth cavity in tune with the note Ab, G, in hole 2, C, B, Bb, in hole 3. Try dropping your jaw as if yawning and allow your tongue to drop down in back. If it is not the problem then
the reed could be swaging (sway-jing) twisting in the reed slot and rubbing against the side of the chamber.
Or there could be minor burrs along the side of the reed or reed slot causing the reed to swage. This can be remedied by checking to see if the reed is misaligned in the reed slot causing it to rub on one side or the other. Sorry to say you'll have to dis-assemble the harmonica to see this. The best way to
rotate the reed back into alignment is with a reed wrench. Another way is to use a shim such as an automotive shim .0025 or smaller. Use the shim to coax the reed back centered in the slot. You can also use the shim to remove any burrs that might obstruct the reeds activation. A good source for
free shims are the plastic anti-theft tags on retail packaging. The raised usually white plastic piece about
an inch and a half long by about a quarter inch wide
contain several pieces of very thin metal that are excellent for harmonica work. While the Marine Band and Sp20 have the same reeds there are minor subtleties in tone due to the open ended mouthcovers
on the Marine Band as opposed to the closed covers on the Sp20, and the density of the comb material, wood and ABS respectively. The more dense the comb material
the "brighter" the tone. However, wood is just slightly warmer than ABS, but much more than say aluminum, or brass. I hope this helps some, dis-assembly of a Marine Band is an iffy proposition because of them being held together with drive pins
(nails) they never seem to be as tight after re-assembly. While personally I do work on Marine Bands,
my own preference as for playing are Sp20s that I optimize for my own playing style. The Sp20 is SO much
easier to work on.
Best Regards, Peter
Last Edited by Meaux Jeaux on Nov 03, 2014 4:22 PM
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indigo
12 posts
Nov 03, 2014
6:22 PM
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" The more dense the comb material
the "brighter" the tone. However, wood is just slightly warmer than ABS, but much more than say aluminum, or brass."
Let the debate begin ..;-)
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Meaux Jeaux
16 posts
Nov 03, 2014
8:42 PM
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Porosity of the comb material will alter the resonance of the harmonica. The softer the material, like pearwood (Marine Band)ABS (Special20) the more sonic absorption/dampening. The harder the material e.g. sealed bamboo, brass, aluminum, etc the greater the sonic projection i.e. brightness. Can even sound tinny, at least to my ears.
Best regards, Peter
Last Edited by Meaux Jeaux on Nov 03, 2014 8:44 PM
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indigo
13 posts
Nov 03, 2014
9:39 PM
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The debate has begun...
I'm on the side of comb material makes no difference but there are a lotta different opinions on this and quite a few controlled tests where participants could not tell the difference between comb material.
Foam rubber, wood, to use an extreme example..no one could pick it...
Always an interesting subject though.
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Meaux Jeaux
17 posts
Nov 03, 2014
11:52 PM
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Yeah Indigo I'm hip, they did a comparison at SPAH some years back with several different materials, even Styrofoam. It is a players preference, listeners often cannot hear any difference. It is more of a harp tech
thing for me. As I've stated ABS is my preference, but it has more to do with comfort and ease of maintenance than resonance.
Best Regards, Peter
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Palmetto
2 posts
Nov 04, 2014
4:07 PM
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Thanks for the replies.
Mahcks - That makes sense. I've not been able to choke them the way they are set now.
Meaux Jeaux- Appreciate all the tips. The reeds look centered. I do have some feeler gauges and may try what you suggest. I think the remaining ringing may be due to technique. It only occurs when I do an exercise where I bend it slowly all the way down.
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harpwrench
932 posts
Nov 04, 2014
4:30 PM
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The ringing is there on a lot of these, when you bend it all the way to bottom. Not much you can do about it, except "don't do that."
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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GMaj7
539 posts
Nov 05, 2014
7:38 AM
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Cudos to the many technically competent folks on this forum who have patiently answered the SAME question 5000 times... :)
Sigh
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Harpaholic
559 posts
Nov 06, 2014
6:09 PM
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Why would you want to draw beyond a full step on 2 draw and 1-1/2 steps on 3 draw? Sounds like a good way to blow out a reed. Am I missing something?
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nacoran
8105 posts
Nov 06, 2014
8:59 PM
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As to why Adam might gap wider, it's been a while since I watched that video. Could it be his aggressive attack? He does have the lungs of a runner...
Harpaholic- whether it would be more likely to blow a harp out, I'm not sure. I think you can bend fairly softly, and the tone is more about where on the reed the bending is happening, or if the reeds are interacting, the speed at which the reed is vibrating. It might put stress on different parts of the reed, but I don't know if that would make it more likely to snap.
GMaj7, to be fair, the forums search function can be pretty wonky unless you know exactly what to search for.
***
As for comb material, it would be interesting to see where the sound comes from in a harp- I mean, obviously, it's the interruption of flow of air by the reeds, but is the noise on the reed slot side of the reed or the area between the cover and the reedplate. If I had to guess I'd say the sound doesn't really get going until it's slips into that gap between the cover and the reed plate (although I'm sure there is all sorts of swirling going on there). That means the material the reed plate and the cover are made out of would have more impact than the comb.
My experience suggests the covers have more impact on the sound than the comb material. (That's not to say the airtightness of a comb isn't important, but just that, if you have an airtight comb the material won't matter much.) Now, if you try putting a metal coverplate on a harp, then try a cover from a cheap plastic Piedmont you'll almost certainly hear the difference. You may or may not hear a difference between open and closed back covers. It's more subtle. (The Piedmonts are plastic AND very closed back). I can hear the difference between open and closed backs, but can't decide which I prefer. Turbolids are nice too!
I bet you could change the tone a lot too by putting a soft covering over the reedplate. Anyone have any experience with that with medical tape gasketing?
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Nate
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SuperBee
2263 posts
Nov 07, 2014
1:56 AM
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bending to the floor? sometimes its called for, like bending 5 draw...dave Barrett advocates bending 2 draw flat in a particular song i studied of his.....jimi lee advocated using the flat 2 draw instead of 2 blow in particular 3rd position riffs, kinda like some players use flat blow bends to imply the draw notes...and it could be used for (sound) effect, especially taking the 1 draw as flat as possible...
as an exercise...i think its about finding the full range and taking control of it...
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Harpaholic
561 posts
Nov 08, 2014
11:50 AM
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Superbee, So your saying 2 whole steps on 2 draw and 2 whole steps on 3 draw? On a C harp 3 draw 2 whole steps is A flat which makes sense.
2 draw 2 whole steps would be a D sharp, that's where I'm confused? When you say flat 2 draw, what note are you referring to?
You don't mention 3 draw beyond 1-1/2 steps?
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Nov 08, 2014 11:54 AM
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slaphappy
46 posts
Nov 08, 2014
1:42 PM
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I think SuperBee is saying play 2-draw a whole-step down + a bit more.. You really can get some honk down there.
3 draw has 3 half steps. 2 whole steps would give you 3blow.. I think 3 draw you want to be dead on pitch generally except for the blue 3rd quarter tone bend
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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SuperBee
2265 posts
Nov 08, 2014
3:30 PM
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Yeah, 2 draw G, bent beyond F, you can (depending on tuning of the harp) get maybe to 30 cents sharp of E. Depends a bit on how flat the 2 blow is tuned, but if you can get the 2 draw to 30 cents or so sharp of E, you could use that for an E if you don't dwell on it. Sometimes it flows a little better, similar to how jimmy reed would use the 8 and 9 blow bends. There was a recent thread on stevie wonder 'boogie on reggae woman" where SW use of those blow bends was discussed. And recently joe filisko was discussing jimmy reed's 'honest I do' and commented that modern tuning is not so good for this (esp re the 9 blow bend) as the 7 limit JI which jimmy reed was using.
This is a similar principle to using the 2 draw to sub for 2 blow.
And hon king...yes, that's another thing Jimi lee talked about, was the distinctive sound of harmonica which is sometimes deliberately sought for incidental music, and those super flat notes are where it is...not something I really want to listen to much, but has its place.
But mainly, for people learning to control bends, I think you have to know you can take it all the way down and really own that bend so you can start to take it exactly where you want it.
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