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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Fearlessness on stage
Fearlessness on stage
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The Iceman
2060 posts
Sep 16, 2014
11:46 AM
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This performance embodies my concept of playing fearlessly.. Reminds me a bit of how I approached the Hohner World Championships, winning 5nd, 3rd and 2th place at three different Hohner events.
It also reminds me of Sunny Girl, who I taught to be fearless - to the point of in one SPAH performance of hers when I accompanied her on piano and played the song in the wrong key. After her giving me a brief dirty look, she proceeded to sing and play harmonica (without switching harps - just making the one she had work) and killed.
This is in contrast to those that worry, fret and practice a song ad infinitum for a competition.
Notice in the interview part how this woman talks about listening to the backing track to learn on the way to the show (maybe true or not, but the spirit remains the same).
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The Iceman
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Ted Burke
197 posts
Sep 16, 2014
12:26 PM
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Fearless, maybe, but what she is doing are riffs that sound good on solid body electric guitars like Fenders and Les Pauls, accompanied by a good many effects. Her skill is apparent, but this sounds musically thin and , frankly, silly. Guitar theatrics look dynamic only when guitarists do them; everyone else on any other instrument, at whatever skill level, appear awkward .
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ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
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Honkin On Bobo
1253 posts
Sep 16, 2014
12:31 PM
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She said she wanted to "share her thing".
I'm all for that.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Sep 16, 2014 12:32 PM
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The Iceman
2062 posts
Sep 16, 2014
1:02 PM
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I posted this as an example of fearlessness, which is an attitude.
Didn't really ask for a critique on riffs, etc, as that is definitely not the point of this thread, but thanks anyways.
btw, even though Ted thinks this type of playing is only suitable for guitar, it sure wowed them in England...she made it to at least the semi finals if not the finals of Britain's Got Talent 2014. This is by judge's attitude to get you into the competition and then by votes from the public.
I enjoyed her stage presence and movements.
She walked out and owned that stage.
Fearless.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
2144 posts
Sep 16, 2014
1:14 PM
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I am impressed if you didn't practice and did as well as you say in the Hohner competitions....bet you didn't get whistled at as much as she did.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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harpdude61
2145 posts
Sep 16, 2014
1:16 PM
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Did you intentionally play the wrong key for Sunny Girl? I bet you didn't put her in 7th or 8th position.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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Milsson
164 posts
Sep 16, 2014
1:30 PM
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Who is this Sunny girl i keep hearing about?
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The Iceman
2063 posts
Sep 16, 2014
1:45 PM
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Accidentally played the wrong key. Don't remember the position I put her in, but if it had been 7th or 8th position, it wouldn't have mattered to Sunny Girl.
We took part in a "Talent Show" at a high end condo area outside of Orlando about 10 years ago. Song she chose was "Misty" - me on the piano while she sang and played harmonica.
I suggested she sing verse, chorus, play solo over verse (the reason being the chorus modulates to a different key), sing chorus and last verse and then out. This is how we worked on it the day before the show.
At showtime, all was going as planned. She sang verse, chorus, soloed over the verse. However, when that chorus modulation came, she just kept on soloing. I almost fell off the piano stool, but then realized that I had taught her to be fearless and was proud.
btw, she won the contest and $200.
Question re: Sunny Girl....If you had attended SPAH Conventions in 97 - 2000, you would know who she was. In 1996, her dad brought his 5 year old daughter over to meet me, as he was looking for the best harmonica teacher he could find and she already could play. I immediately realized that she was one of those dream students - an old talented soul reincarnated in a young body. I began teaching her weekly and continued to do so until I moved out of Detroit in 1999.
I taught her music, stage presence, coached her on singing and, of course, harmonica technique. She quickly became a force on the Detroit scene - not only playing with the best blues artists in town, but also crossing over and playing with the jazz musicians as well. She was asked up on stage to jam with Buddy Guy at a big concert, had her own band for a while and just before I left Detroit, we got a call from one of the producers of the Tonight Show expressing interest.
Unfortunately, her stage dad took over after I left and pushed her into becoming a little blues performer, boxing her in. She was a musician that could also play blues, but her dad had other ideas. It made Sunny Girl so unhappy that it spoiled music for her, made her rebel against her dad and she put music aside about 5 years ago. Her dad also killed the Tonight Show opportunity.
Now she is a graphic artist on the creative team of Quicken Loans and part of that rebuilding of downtown Detroit entity. She is also getting interested in music again.
I have taught music, etc, for many years and have never experienced a talent like hers, although her younger sister may be even more talented, but unfortunately, I am too far away to bring her under my wing and help guide her.
Sunny Girl used to have a web site, but she took it down a while ago when she got disgusted with her dad...there may still be some videos up on youtube, though.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 16, 2014 2:02 PM
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JustFuya
532 posts
Sep 16, 2014
2:09 PM
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Very engaging. More than half the battle in my mind.
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BronzeWailer
1453 posts
Sep 16, 2014
2:29 PM
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I have played with a couple of guys that were conservatorium trained. They were very good but had terrible stage nerves and oddly lacked self confidence. I wonder it if comes from being told by their teachers/professors that they weren't perfect or something like that?
Sunny Girl is/was a talented young lady. I better go back to the wood shed....
BronzeWailer's YouTube
Last Edited by BronzeWailer on Sep 16, 2014 2:29 PM
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JustFuya
534 posts
Sep 16, 2014
2:54 PM
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Wow. What a nice touch on the harp/vocals and an excellent feel for those she is sharing the stage with. Rare talent & composure out of the box. Puts me to shame with my years.
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The Iceman
2065 posts
Sep 16, 2014
3:22 PM
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That clip is 13 years old...she was 10 at the time. Notice the maturity in her eyes/face during the close ups while she sings...she is also totally comfortable on stage. It was easy to teach her this stuff, as she is a natural.
During these years, she would kill on stage. Then, during the break, she would run around the audience, playing with other kids or coloring in her coloring book w/crayons.
I had her perform at SPAH every year so the members could watch her grow up in front of their eyes...
Interesting side note - she appeared on stage w/Doug Tate in, I believe, SPAH 98 or 99, where she totally upstaged him. It affected him so badly that when he took over SPAH in 2001, he made sure she was never to perform at a convention again.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 16, 2014 3:23 PM
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JustFuya
536 posts
Sep 16, 2014
3:35 PM
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The interesting side note is off key. The upstage should be a high for all.
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Goldbrick
685 posts
Sep 16, 2014
3:38 PM
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Or as W C Fields said
“Never Work With Children Or Animals” they upstage everybody
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The Iceman
2075 posts
Sep 18, 2014
8:16 AM
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For those that are interested, Sunny Girl's harmonica solos were always improv in the moment..in other words, she didn't play memorized licks.
This was a big part of my FEARLESS teaching technique - never a lick based approach.
So, I turned out two world class students (actually like 1 1/2).
Sunny Girl is the true example.
The other was RJ Harman - taught him the techniques, skills, etc, but he never got around to learning developing a unique voice, instead focused on taking other's ideas for his own. This was one of two reasons that I stopped teaching him.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 18, 2014 8:17 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1023 posts
Sep 18, 2014
12:20 PM
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So what makes one "Fearless on Stage"??
for me it's:
1) years of being on stage
2) confidence in what I'm going to do
3) no fear of failure. The ability to fail and say, "oh well, maybe I'll do better next time"
For me, I stumble if I'm being judged where every note is expected to be perfect, but in a performance, there is so much more going on I can relax and just perform. I would not do as well as Iceman did in the Hohner Championship.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on Sep 18, 2014 12:21 PM
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Ted Burke
203 posts
Sep 18, 2014
12:46 PM
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Fearless is a fine word, but a bit melodramatic. Blues musicians and musicians in general , I suppose, can be expected to engage in a little bit of high-rent hyperbole when discussing matters musical. It's a trait I engage in. In any case, I look less for "fearlessness" and all it's Saturday matinee associations and seek instead musicians who have confidence in what they're doing. There is that threshold we must all cross, built of self-doubt, stage fright, anxiety, when we're about to step onto the stage, but the one who is going to be the professional, the one who is going to turn in stellar performances more often than not, is the one with the instinct, the knack, the desire to entertain , delight and amaze others to convert fear, bad nerves, doubt , the shakes into energy that fires the brain and the limbs and makes all the synapses fire; the training, the practice, the woodshedding stops being experimental and preperation and transforms itself into confident, self assured professionalism. It's a quality of being that allows the musician to pretty much do anything he or she has their mind on doing.
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ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
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The Iceman
2077 posts
Sep 18, 2014
1:38 PM
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Ted suggest that "Fearless" is melodramatic with Sat. Matinee overtones.
No need to get semantic about the concept. I love that word and it does nicely convey the idea of which I did start this thread, so let's not split hairs and keep to the program, OK?
What makes one Fearless on stage?
Not necessarily years of being on stage (just ask Sunny Girl).
It is confidence and personal power, which does do away with fear of failure.
It is being flexible with an ability to react to whatever is going on around you in the moment.
For instance - playing in a duo - guitar player accidentally plays wrong chords during your solo. Being flexible means being able to hear what is happening and instantly adjust your playing to make it sound right rather than playing that memorized solo over these different chords.
Lick based harmonica learning will limit one's flexibility to roll with the punches.
Better to learn Fearless Concepts - such as understanding a bit of theory/chord changes and how to improvise by choosing from the notes available to you at any given moment and making them good choices.
I also taught Sunny Girl that playing/singing is actually the same whether it is you alone in your bedroom, at a jam session, or on an outdoor stage with 10,000 screaming fans. I taught to her ignore others "ears" - don't think about people listening to you. This helped eliminate a lot of self consciousness and anxiety.
Another valuable consideration is to always play from where you are at ability wise - don't try to play over your own head. This was one aspect that Sunny Girl understood from the beginning. Her solo in the above clip is nothing earth shattering, but was a great representation of her ability at the time - sounds solid and simple. (She even had the confidence to look right into the camera at one point in her solo with no fear in her eyes).
Of course, when you get ahold of a 6 year old, they don't have that adult self doubt and fear that one learns as one grows older, so she had that advantage.
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The Iceman
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1847
2181 posts
Sep 18, 2014
1:40 PM
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any one remember the tee shirts "no fear"
usually the person wearing one was about to do something stupid. watch this, hold my beer.
i would always say "no fear no clue"
anyone not afraid, is not aware of the danger
inherant in all activities.
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embrace your fears and they will diminish
Last Edited by 1847 on Sep 18, 2014 1:40 PM
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JustFuya
559 posts
Sep 18, 2014
2:14 PM
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I agree that confidence in yourself and the material you wish to convey is key. I've conducted work meetings and classes with nary a tremble. My agenda and message was clear in my head before I stepped up.
On the other hand, I use a crutch to convey my musical message, even in the woodshed. It was not always that way and I concede it probably boils down to bad habits I developed over the years.
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Littoral
1145 posts
Sep 18, 2014
3:26 PM
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Iceman, this was perfect: "No need to get semantic about the concept. I love that word (fearless) and it does nicely convey the idea of which I did start this thread, so let's not split hairs and keep to the program, OK?"
Great topic, but sometimes, as in here, I also get just as interested in the technique tack patience politeness banter... of communicating. It's just not easy. When I was much younger I was naive enough to believe that people usually understood what each other was saying. I'm old enough to know now that that people rarely understood what each other is saying. That's ok, I can work with that.
Last Edited by Littoral on Sep 18, 2014 3:27 PM
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Ted Burke
205 posts
Sep 18, 2014
3:27 PM
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Hello Iceman. May I call you Larry? If not, ok. In any event, please feel free to talk to me rather than refer to me in the third person while we're in the same thread. You may,of course, call me anything anything you wish short of an insult, per house rules, but it's common courtesy to speak to someone, in person or online. I am not really splitting hairs here, I was merely giving my point of view of what it takes to perform on stage effectively and chose my preferred term for it. As for the rest of what you've said, I can't say I disagree and, in fact, would maintain we are mostly of the same mind on this issue. "Fearless", though, is a word I hold in reserve for events and actions that are truly death-defying. I prefer "confidence". It's a fine word, an apt word for your discussion.----------
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ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by Ted Burke on Sep 18, 2014 3:29 PM
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Frank
5317 posts
Sep 18, 2014
5:01 PM
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Another confident performance from da Brits :)
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 18, 2014 5:10 PM
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STME58
1079 posts
Sep 18, 2014
5:13 PM
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Even though I take Ted's point about reserving the word fearless for death defying circumstances, I think it fits well here. It is a great counter to the common term "Stage Fright. What is the lack of stage fright but fearlessness?
I also take 1847's point about fear but I think there is a line between fearless and reckless. What Iceman described as part of fearlessness is staying in your area of competence. Fearlessness is not ignoring the danger, but realizing that you have what it takes to handle it.
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Komuso
413 posts
Sep 18, 2014
6:54 PM
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The Iceman suggests "Better to learn Fearless Concepts - such as understanding a bit of theory/chord changes and how to improvise by choosing from the notes available to you at any given moment and making them good choices"
I'm sorry, "fearless concepts" sounds like new age marketing drivel to me...and I do a lot of new agey type stuff.
Why not just call it what it is?
Development of professional performance skills which includes the ability to adapt and improvise because *tada* shit happens when you least expect it.
Which includes "theory/chord changes and how to improvise by choosing from the notes available to you at any given moment and making them good choices" without the hype.
I really hate that term fearless, especially coming from an extreme sports competitive background (skydiving).
[eg: too many people have died because they were "fearless" and made bad risk decisions due to ego first, risk 2nd - especially the last few years in skydiving/base/wingsuit]
As 1847 said
"any one remember the tee shirts "no fear"
usually the person wearing one was about to do something stupid. watch this, hold my beer. i would always say "no fear no clue" anyone not afraid, is not aware of the danger
inherant in all activities."
+10 to this.
Any real professional (in anything) does not admit to "no fear" but to "know fear" and be able to control it. Big difference.
STME58 says "Fearlessness is not ignoring the danger, but realizing that you have what it takes to handle it."
I disagree. Words have power, it's not just semantics. "fearless", despite the less part, implies the former as in "no fear". Bad psychology imo. A little bit of fear awareness keeps you sharp.
Fearless is as bad a word as fearfull.
As for the original video I would say a large part is down to her personality. She has what I would call a very bubbly fun personality (almost ditzy in the american vernacular?) which goes a long way. I think it was in one of David Barrett's videos , maybe with Rick Estrin, where he talks about this exact thing on stage. You can't fake your personality on stage, understand it and make it (ie: your quirks) work for you. Especially under pressure.
Plus her physical movements, poses, and stances also indicate she's no amateur. She might not be fully pro but I would wager good money it's not her first time on stage.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Sep 18, 2014 7:22 PM
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tolga7t
282 posts
Sep 18, 2014
7:07 PM
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Kind of unrelated, but if the music in the original video is of interest to anyone, I'm sure she was inspired by Lindsey Stirling, who seems to have made this electro/violin/dubstep genre famous.
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Ted Burke
206 posts
Sep 18, 2014
8:21 PM
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Concepts do not exist of themselves, self-contained. The idea of courage is meaningless until one grasps fears, embraces it and walks through that wall of uncertainty that would otherwise prevent the person, musician or not, from doing great and original things. It's walking through your fears and getting to the other side, stronger, tempered, with greater confidence in one's abilities. Fear I believe is a great motivator toward acts of personal courage. It should be turned around, I think. One cannot be "fearless", but one can live with less fear by taking risks, advancing toward goals one might not otherwise have attempted. Less fear. That seems closer to the real human condition, something that is achievable.
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ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
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The Iceman
2078 posts
Sep 19, 2014
4:20 AM
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Komuso often posts interesting takes on the subject matter - and finds "Fearless Concepts" to sound new agey to him.
However, his solution is pretty wordy to me.
As a teacher, I suppose I could tell my student "Now we are going to work on Development of professional performance skills which includes the ability to adapt and improvise because *tada* shit happens when you least expect it - which includes theory/chord changes and how to improvise by choosing from the notes available to you at any given moment and making them good choices without the hype."
or,
"Now we are going to work on Fearless Concepts".
I prefer the latter.
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The Iceman
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Komuso
414 posts
Sep 19, 2014
4:27 AM
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I actually said "fearless concepts" sounds like new age marketing drivel.
It's called "performing" btw, even shorter and to the point.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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The Iceman
2079 posts
Sep 19, 2014
4:39 AM
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I see "performing" and "fearless concepts" as two different entities.
Fearless Concepts may apply to other areas of human endeavor besides just performing.
Let's not turn the direction of this thread into a "meta-discussion" and keep to the program, OK?
My experience with Fearless Concepts (and especially with Sunny Girl and myself) have shown that, rather than live with less fear, one can actually do away with it.
Much fun to play from this head space.
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The Iceman
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Ted Burke
207 posts
Sep 19, 2014
6:46 AM
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Doing away fear is a nice goal in an abstract world, but eliminating this element from the range of human emotion threatens to turn musicians into automatons, machines. If one does not know fear by experience, consequentially one cannot know courage, that is, one cannot be brave. These are polarities that depend on one another in order to be useful in any discussion using either of the terms. Neither fear nor courage make sense with out the presence of the other. Sans fear, an element I believe is always present in every human being (unless one is a sociopath), courage is not possible. That is why I thinking reversing the term to that of having "less fearing" is more useful and presents a more coherent picture of what you're trying to get at, as it describes how fear, always present, can be mastered to an extent and turned to one's advantage as the hero, a musician in this case, advances toward that quality called courage. Like it or not, fear cannot be gotten rid of. It can, though, be eliminated , and people can be taught/trained to perform wonderfully inspite of the fears they have.
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ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.com
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Komuso
415 posts
Sep 19, 2014
6:58 AM
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Larry, a sample of 2 does not make a new paradigm because you say so.
>>Let's not turn the direction of this thread into a "meta-discussion" and keep to the program, OK?
Your concept of "fearless [insert here]" is just marketing twaddle. In harmonica terms you've come up with what you think is a new tuning but it's actually been sitting on Pat Missin's tuning web page for quite a while, if you had bothered to look;-/
I've mentioned before in other threads but everything you are claiming as "novel and fearless and invented by Larry" has been well covered by the fields of sports psychology and performance focused training in multiple domains for literally decades.
But fine, if you want to dress it up and put it out there go for it. It works for lots of new age programs, so should be a hit!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Sep 19, 2014 7:04 AM
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Michael Rubin
953 posts
Sep 19, 2014
6:59 AM
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How about calling it courageous playing?
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Komuso
416 posts
Sep 19, 2014
7:05 AM
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>>How about calling it courageous playing?
Now there's a step in a positive mental image and emotional trigger direction!
Robbie Calvo covers some of these er, "fearless concepts" but he calls it Stage Brave
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Sep 19, 2014 7:07 AM
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The Iceman
2082 posts
Sep 19, 2014
7:09 AM
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Cool opinions, all.
When you teach, call it what you want.
I will stick with what has worked for me.
btw, Kumoso sez " "novel and fearless and invented by Larry".
Aren't you projecting yourself into my postings? I don't remember saying the above quote (aside from something similar that one time when I was unaware of other philosophies that paralleled mine, at which time I accepted the faux pas and apologized).
I feel someone is trying to pull my rug out from some of my more successful teaching concepts by coming at me personally. (twaddle??) That's ok. I can take it.
Success speaks for itself. (Edit - tip o' the hat to Michael for pointing out my spelling error).
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program?
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 19, 2014 7:25 AM
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Komuso
417 posts
Sep 19, 2014
7:16 AM
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Larry, I don't think I'm wrong in detecting in numerous posts of yours that you think you've stumbled upon some brilliant new method so no I don't think I'm projecting.
Maybe I was a little forthright in which case I apologize. It's the Australian in me, we like to call a spade a spade - or sometimes even a fracking shovel!
re: (aside from something similar that one time when I was unaware of other philosophies that paralleled mine, at which time I accepted the faux pas and apologized).
No, they don't parallel you is my point. They predate you and I would even hazard to say go way beyond you.
I hate to burst your bubble on that, but I really suggest you do some research. Combined with the experience you do have, and an affinity for some of the concepts, I think you could actually improve what you are doing with exposure to more people working in the field of performance psychology and skills development.
The program is yours.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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Michael Rubin
954 posts
Sep 19, 2014
7:23 AM
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Spelling success correctly when talking about success speaking for itself seems more important than the usual spelling nazi moment.
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1847
2182 posts
Sep 19, 2014
7:29 AM
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on stage the band has got problems
a bag of nerves on first nights.
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money as debt
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The Iceman
2084 posts
Sep 19, 2014
7:29 AM
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Kumoso -
OK. Predate me and go way beyond me. Accepted.
Will take your advice and do more research. Thanx.
Now, time for a Vegemite Sandwich and, child molestation aside, another listen to "I'm Peg With
the Extra Leg".
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 19, 2014 7:30 AM
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1847
2187 posts
Sep 19, 2014
10:44 AM
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no fear!
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money as debt
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nacoran
8011 posts
Sep 19, 2014
2:03 PM
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Some other single words I might use to describe the phenomena- poise, command, presence, gravitas...
They've all got slightly different shades of meaning but they all reflect the ability to own the stage and the performance. It's not quite like being 'in the zone' or 'locked in' but it seems like a kind of focus in the moment to me, confidence and the ability to take control of the situation. It's a mindset- I don't always get there, but it's when you can channel any energy/emotion in your brain- nervousness, excitement, anger, sadness, into what you are doing.
If you think of going on stage as getting up to speak at a board meeting it's the ability to take control of the room.
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Nate
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