Frank
5115 posts
Aug 13, 2014
2:02 PM
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How to Tell Real from Counterfeit blues, bluesmen?
What do you think - is there a litmus test?
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 13, 2014 2:04 PM
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Goldbrick
606 posts
Aug 13, 2014
2:12 PM
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Nah - just an acid test
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KillerJoe
96 posts
Aug 13, 2014
2:13 PM
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I didn't notice anything on the Real Blues Forum about Elliot Rodger. Remember how Adam tried to claim that Mr. Rodger's manifesto was somehow an accurate representation of blues-flavored angst?
I wonder what the folks over there, or anywhere else besides here, would say about that mess.
Real blues speaks for itself.
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atty1chgo
1061 posts
Aug 13, 2014
2:45 PM
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I didn't notice anything on this post about Real Blues Forum. Isn't that another conversation?
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JInx
843 posts
Aug 13, 2014
9:14 PM
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Thank you douharps, for that enlightened perspective.
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Last Edited by JInx on Aug 13, 2014 9:15 PM
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Barley Nectar
484 posts
Aug 13, 2014
10:30 PM
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+2 Doug. Very nicely stated!
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Frank
5121 posts
Aug 14, 2014
3:48 AM
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So someone could subjectively believe that something is Counterfeit blues as opposed to real blues?
Is there a test that could help distinguish real blues from fake blues?
If all blues music can be subjectively viewed as "real" - could it then be accurately categorized as (worthy or disreputable) to the listener?
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 14, 2014 3:59 AM
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atty1chgo
1066 posts
Aug 14, 2014
3:58 AM
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Another silly post topic from Frank.
But in the interest of collegiality, I offer the John Lee Hooker test. This is the blues.
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Frank
5122 posts
Aug 14, 2014
4:08 AM
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Please stay out of this thread if your going to get personal with me - (E MAIL me personally) - if you have the need to tell me what you feel about me or my posts, thank you :)
OR - give me your email and I'll contact you! :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 14, 2014 4:18 AM
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gad wagon
64 posts
Aug 14, 2014
5:09 AM
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I think a "good groove" is a measure of "real" music. Note well that I put "a" and not "the." "Good music" never wears spandex. "Good music" has some wiggle room. If you have people tapping their feet, nodding their heads, patting their thigh, then your music is delivering a message. Isn't that the whole reason for music, to tell a message?
"Real blues," now this is where we may have a discussion... one which has been had many times here. Is it the content? Race? Birth place? Life events? Instrument? Year? Target audience?
On another note, "all is subject" is in itself, a self-contradicting statement... You attempted to convince us of an objective standard. :)
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-- "The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but to irrigate deserts" -- C.S. Lewis
http://www.youtube.com/user/gadwagon/videos
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BronzeWailer
1395 posts
Aug 14, 2014
5:37 AM
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+1 on gad wagon. "Groove." Can you dance to it?
Dunno if there is such a thing as a fake groove though...
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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KingoBad
1517 posts
Aug 14, 2014
6:01 AM
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I say the real blues are about 475 nanometers in wavelength...
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Danny
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dougharps
703 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:10 AM
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@gad wagon
I am OK with that paradox! It is my subjective objective standard. To my mind, the postmodern position is the perfect response to the OP question...
"The paradox of the postmodern position is that, in placing all principles under the scrutiny of its skepticism, it must realize that even its own principles are not beyond questioning."
http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/gengloss/postm-body.html
Paradox is an inescapable element of postmodern thought. Postmodernism challenges the reliability of language itself.
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/722/08/
Let's play some blues!
@KingoBad
I like your answer!
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 14, 2014 7:11 AM
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Ted Burke
113 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:31 AM
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If there had been conditions, standards and requirements for "real blues" in the days when the basis of the music was being created, we would not have blues at all. It was an organic activity, a happy consequence of the evil people do to each other (slavery, oppression, exploitation), and it was a style of music that changed as black people migrated from country to city and experienced other kinds of situations, experienced new music forms, came across new instruments. The music changed, and rules, as such, were made up as musicians went along, integrating their experience into the blues they played. It is a relentlessly subjective question and the post modern response is perhaps the best one,which is to say that that I may not be able to tell what "real blues" is, but I do think I can hear real emotion and feeling in music that I hear. For me, that is the only criteria for authenticity; does it move me in some way?
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The Iceman
1925 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:49 AM
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Real Blues will move me emotionally.
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The Iceman
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gad wagon
65 posts
Aug 14, 2014
10:35 AM
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I just had a revelation. There are 50 shades of blues!!
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-- "The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles but to irrigate deserts" -- C.S. Lewis
http://www.youtube.com/user/gadwagon/videos
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Frank
5125 posts
Aug 14, 2014
1:40 PM
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Here are the 12 qualifications to be classified as real blues :)
1...must move emotions
2...have a good groove
3...no spandex allowed
4...adhere to post modernism
5...involve Jerry Garica somehow
6...measurable in wavelengths
7...tells a message
8...plays itself as itself
9...not standard
10...can dance to it
11...has a bunch of shades
12...can't categorize abstractedly
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Here is an example of keeping it real...or is it a counterfeit?
----------------------------------------------------
Real blues, or Fake?
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 14, 2014 1:57 PM
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Goldbrick
610 posts
Aug 14, 2014
1:59 PM
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nacoran
7934 posts
Aug 14, 2014
5:44 PM
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Frank, I always try to turn the other cheek when I'm called silly. Of course, like you, a lot of the time I am trying to be silly.
Now to the topic at hand, I can't give a specific example of 'fake blues' but there certainly is 'fake' music. If you are in a band that was put together by a manager, all your songs are written by someone else, and all your albums are actually a bunch of studio musicians playing under your autotuned voice, yeah, you're probably in a fake band.
If you are doing any one of those things yourself I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in most cases. (Well, if you aren't playing, you are autotuned and you aren't playing your own music, still no).
You could being doing all those things and still come up with real music, it's just that the 'real' band is the guy who wrote your stuff and the studio musicians who played it.
Of course, there are signifiers involved. Music is music, but sometimes it's also a signal that you belong to a specific group. In that case you may be playing the music but not be considered 'authentic' by some people, even if you are playing the exact same style. What then, are your intentions? Some people are playing the music because they like the music. Some people are playing the music-
Oh my god my brain. Oh that is so annoying. Somewhere in my closet there is a cricket. He's been here for several days and every day about this time he starts screeching- not chirping- screeching. Every time I go looking for him he shuts up.-
to try to sell records, others because they want to identify with that group, and others still to appropriate it to mock the other group or something they represent. Music is music, except when it's politics. I like that it's complex, but there are times when I like music to just be music.
Listening to James Cotton right now. And a cricket.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Frank
5129 posts
Aug 14, 2014
6:28 PM
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Oh for sure Nate - but this dude is gettin creepy though, following me around in all my threads and acting like he's Barney Fife...and you know what a nuisance he is :)
So it just makes sense that if wants to get personal with me - to do it else where, not on the forum - which he seems to be trying to do.
I have tried nicely to tell em multiple times to - stay away, since he has a problem with me - but to no avail...
Do me a favor Nate and keep an eye on the guys odd behavior towards me and my threads - He doesn't seem to have the sense or discipline to leave well enough alone, Thanks buddy :)
fake? real? somewhere in between?
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 14, 2014 7:02 PM
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mastercaster
56 posts
Aug 14, 2014
6:34 PM
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Real or fake ? ; )
hehehe
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2chops
281 posts
Aug 14, 2014
6:55 PM
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@Nate; that "cricket post" is one of the funniest parenthetical posts I've ever read.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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Goldbrick
611 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:11 PM
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Dont know who I dislike more- the Blues Bros or Illinois Nazis
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Aug 14, 2014 7:13 PM
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kudzurunner
4870 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:48 PM
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Sing it with feeling, take me somewhere, and do it with your own style, in your own voice:
Write some great lyrics and sing 'em like you mean 'em:
Take your time:
Sister Rosetta Tharpe with Big Walter Horton and T. Bone Walker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__zadGXR3A
Minister to the crowd you've got in front of you; know what sort of joke is appropriate, and when.
Take the music seriously AND lightheartedly. Doc's son Merle, with whom he dueted a lot, died tragically in the late 1980s. Doc--blind, now son-less and partner-less, kept on going. Sometimes that's the best and most elegant thing you can do:
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 14, 2014 8:00 PM
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nacoran
7935 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:51 PM
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2chops, I'm sure someday, when that cricket is gone, I'll be able to laugh about it too!
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Nate
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Goldbrick
613 posts
Aug 14, 2014
7:58 PM
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Hey Nate- Worked for Buddy Holly
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Frank
5136 posts
Aug 15, 2014
6:59 AM
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she's doin sumpin right ? blues wise :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 15, 2014 7:01 AM
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MJ
735 posts
Aug 15, 2014
7:47 AM
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I ask myself if someone can tell what is real, counterfeit, or genuine in someone else's mind. My blues may not be yours and yours not mine. If I feel blue, what does it matter how others may judge my intention. It can be rather presumptuous to judge others by your own standards.
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Frank
5137 posts
Aug 15, 2014
8:06 AM
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Correct on all accounts...Yet it seems human nature has yet to locate that higher chakra - sure "everyone" gets a trophy these days, I think its a law to give 2 trophies to the loser of a competition or what have ya - just to make them feel like extra special losers. Certainly it is a dog eat dog out there in the real world and the presumptuous seem to eat the humble for dinner when the rubber meets the road :)
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dougharps
704 posts
Aug 15, 2014
8:15 AM
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Popularity shouldn't be construed as authenticity.
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Doug S.
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Frank
5138 posts
Aug 15, 2014
8:19 AM
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Lady Gaga & Yoko Ono have yet to get that message :)
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dougharps
705 posts
Aug 15, 2014
9:03 AM
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Frank, you have a gift for generating questions that engage!
I still think that the question itself is the wrong question as it puts us in the role of being a critic of others rather than being musicians creating music, and the exercise of judging others is counterproductive to creating.
Your question asks us to draw a hard line between real and counterfeit in a world full of scalar gradations. This is so subjective that I do not see a benefit of pursuing it. If we choose to engage in that dualistic judgement process anyway, each of us will likely have different evaluations, none of which does justice to the performing artist. I don't see the role of critic of others as useful in working on our own art. I would rather put the energy into judging my own music and working to improve.
If we choose to judge anyway, I suggest using multivalued logic as opposed to either/or binary assessments. Aristotelian logic excludes the middle, while actually something CAN be simultaneously both real and counterfeit. There are gradations. The music DOES have 50 shades of blue! @gad wagon ;-}
If we engage in judging authenticity when listening to a blues performance it would be more productive to rate the EXTENT to which each of us assesses that the performance is authentic ("real") blues.
On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being totally authentic "real" blues, and 1 being completely counterfeit, we could each rate a performance. This would give each of us a more useful idea of what we value in blues.
This eliminates the need for the either/or mindset.
I don't have any personal inclination to start compiling ratings as it takes me away from working on my own performance growth.
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Doug S.
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Frank
5139 posts
Aug 15, 2014
9:23 AM
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Actually your need to create this thread to be more in line with your image and make it into something that suits your beliefs is ironic since you seem to be suggesting that is not tolerable when discussing music or musicians? Or am I missing something here :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 15, 2014 9:25 AM
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dougharps
706 posts
Aug 15, 2014
9:43 AM
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Well, Frank, I don't think I am trying to create this thread in line with my image and make it into something that suits my beliefs. I think I was offering my perspective on your question and whether pursuit of judging others' authenticity is productive. I certainly didn't say that judgment of others was not tolerable, just not productive, and very subjective.
However, I do acknowledge and openly admit that there is CONSIDERABLE irony in my subsequent posting on this thread.
My commentary was meta-commentary (which is banned on Harp-L, probably for good reason). In effect, I was making a judgement on the question, which of course is very subjective and not directly responsive to your OP. In retrospect, I should have moved on after my first post...
Edit for typo
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Aug 15, 2014 9:45 AM
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Frank
5140 posts
Aug 15, 2014
9:50 AM
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(I should have moved on after my first post...)
You probably should not of even posted at all- your mistake was even entering the discussion once you decided that..."The OP question itself is destructive of the spirit in which music is created". My advice don't enter threads that make you emotionally unstable...There are many other threads to choose from that will help you find your "happy place" thank you :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 15, 2014 9:57 AM
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dougharps
707 posts
Aug 15, 2014
9:56 AM
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???!
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Doug S.
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Honkin On Bobo
1235 posts
Aug 15, 2014
11:12 AM
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"You probably should not of even posted at all- your mistake was even entering the discussion once you decided that..."The OP question itself is destructive of the spirit in which music is created". My advice don't enter threads that make you emotionally unstable...There are many other threads to choose from that will help you find your "happy place" thank you :)"
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Translation: If you disagree with one of the wacky, er...esoteric, threads that I've started, do not post your disagreement in said thread or I will accuse you of being confused or emotionally unstable. Instead, find a thread that you agree with and post there, you're much more likely to get a happy face.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Aug 15, 2014 11:13 AM
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nacoran
7936 posts
Aug 15, 2014
12:10 PM
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Okay everyone, let's dial it back a notch. Atty1chgo, I have a rule of thumb that I follow that helps me keep my sanity. As far each thread goes, unless it's specifically relevant to the topic I try to have amnesia about the posters in the thread, (except that I have to also have my brain not be amnesiatic in my role as a moderator- it gets crazy in here, especially with that cricket!) Anyway, basically what that means is you don't bring dust ups from one thread to another. You also have to watch that you always afford other members respect. I applaud your attempt at 'collegiality' but by then you'd already made a couple snide remarks. I've been here a long time, and I've seen that when things get carried from one thread to another they build energy and things get ugly. Please either stay away from Frank's threads or hold any sarcasm, and remember, once you start carrying that from thread to thread each piece of sarcasm, because of the limits inherent to words sitting on a page without facial expressions or tone of voice, seems more and more sarcastic.
Frank, threads are funny things. The are organic in a way; they shift like sand. Just like a forum dedicated to the blues will have posts about the Hey Jude recording sessions a thread about what makes something authentic will have posts about whether that's a fair statistic. I think Dougharps made his position in a very respectful way and it was on topic, in an organic sort of way.
When I was a kid I was supposed to fight this kid named Paul after school. I got off the bus, but he had gotten off at another stop, and my hearts started racing a little less quickly. Then he and a friend came out of the woods and I started thinking I was going to get jumped by two guys. I started to freak out. Then one of my friends showed up- a big guy who could probably kick all our butts. He started to say something (actually, he was trying to calm us all down), and I saw it as an attack on me, and before you know it I was tackling him. (Fortunately, he just pinned me and didn't beat the snot out of me.) This is what I'm talking about guys. When you let spats carry from one thread to another people get in that fight or flight mode and start swinging at anyone who looks at them cross-eyed.
So, everyone, breathe in, breathe out, bend that 4 and play nice. :)
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Nate
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Frank
5142 posts
Aug 15, 2014
1:01 PM
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No need to make this complicated...
Many members are able to contribute in good spirits to my threads...(including this one)
There seems to be a few disgruntled members who would rather cause a stink then participate in good faith.
If your only reason to enter one of my threads is to bitch and moan about me or the conversation... PLEASE just STAY AWAY...
Fine you don't care for me or my threads...if that's the case, STAY AWAY - PLEASE!
Not - Complicated
STAY AWAY :)
If you have a problem with me - you aren't going to solve it in a thread on MBH.
Email me or call me if you have problem.
Or simply,
STAY AWAY!
There are thousands of other threads, PLEASE pick one that brings you joy and happiness -
see, not complicated :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 15, 2014 1:05 PM
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