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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
What's your method for chromaticism and why?
What's your method for chromaticism and why?
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mr_so&so
849 posts
Aug 11, 2014
10:09 AM
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There are several ways to get a diatonic harmonica to play all the chromatic scale notes:
1) overbends (Richter tuning + some reed work)
2) half valving (e.g. Brendan Power and P.T. Gazell)
3) alternate tunings (e.g. PowerBender)
4) Extra-reed harps (e.g. Suzuki SUB-30, X-Reed)
I've not tried any alt. tunings yet, except Paddy Richter, and the Extra-reed harps are waiting for money to be accumulated.
For now, at least, I'm happy with overbending on standard Richter harps (with some gapping). I'm used to the Richter layout and harps are plentiful.
What's your poison and why?
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Aug 11, 2014 1:31 PM
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STME58
1029 posts
Aug 11, 2014
11:32 AM
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You left of harp switching. I use that on pieces where there is a modulation, but I can't do Asian style with two harps a half step apart stacked in the hands.
I am learning to overblow and can use it some. I just got a half valved harp and that has a bit of a learning curve. A chromatic harp is surprisingly well adapted for chromaticism :-)
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Mahcks
10 posts
Aug 11, 2014
12:29 PM
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I like valves. PT Gazell's are cheap and easy to install. Contrary to tutorials I've seen, I like to attach them to the comb instead of the reed plate. It saves a lot of guess work that made valving a marine band a chore.
Overblows take a lot of concentration. That's probably just me, though. With valves I can bend with any embouchure that would normally allow a bend.
I'd like to drop some cash with X-Reed for a mb30 (hoping they'll offer paddy). I've got a stock sub30, but it just doesn't click for me. Suzuki reeds always seem to fight me. Probably just my style.
I guess I like valves because they're simple.
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harpdude61
2075 posts
Aug 11, 2014
3:33 PM
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I am an overbender. I heard Jason about a month into my playing and really dug his style.
As a high school trumpet player I understood what chromaticism was. My experience there was a huge help with harp.
I'm probably a better overbender than I am a harp player. Still learning TBing, positions, phrasing, dynamics etc..
It has taken a lot of hard work to get to where I am. I can overblow and overdraw with good pitch control and tone. Love the fact that overbending allows you to bend some of the blue notes up in the blues scale.
Mahcks, after a while overblows become just another bend. It takes a good while. I think a lot of players pop an overblow, don't like the way it sounds, and give up. It is a long road from sounding the overbend to using it in phrasing that compliments the music.
All are great. I have seen PT live and watched all the videos Brenden has made.
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Mahcks
11 posts
Aug 11, 2014
3:56 PM
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Yah, I still work at it. I've got an F I like to play that I don't put valves on. I'm almost consistent on some of the holes.
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GMaj7
492 posts
Aug 11, 2014
4:17 PM
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I've posted this before but thought I would plug it in here for this discussion.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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arzajac
1442 posts
Aug 11, 2014
6:33 PM
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All of them offer something.
1) overbends (Richter tuning + some reed work)
I feel there are two ways to look at this option.
1- You treat the diatonic harp as a diatonic instrument and take full advantage of the layout of the notes. This means chording, octave splits and using the intonation provided by various positions to make your music sound like you want it to.
In summary, although you can hit any note on the chromatic scale, you still pick up a D harp to play a song in A in second position.
The disadvantage is that the learning curve is slightly steep and there is some effort/cost in getting any harp to play all the overbends you want it to play. The learning curve is significantly flatter if you practice with a good instrument.
2- You play the diatonic harp as a chromatic instrument. You play any song in any key on any harp. Examples are Howard Levy and Tinus Koorn.
This takes years to master, and most players would lose interest in the instrument before reaching that point. Very steep learning curve.
I can't say that it always sounds good, even when played by the world's best. Some things just sound better on the piano. I know some players set up their harps to be so bright and responsive that the harp loses some of the characteristics we usually treasure in the sound of the harmonica.
In either case, overbends are single-reed bends and as such have a thinner sound than regular bends.
2) half valving (e.g. Brendan Power and P.T. Gazell)
For the record, Brendan Power invented half-valving. Jusy sayin.
Half-valved bends are single reed bends. To me, they offer the same disadvantages as overbends. They will squeal if the reed work is not to a certain standard or if the harp is not airtight. They are technically difficult and have a somewhat steep learning curve, especially if you are picky about landing right on the note at the correct pitch.
Valves are delicate - no matter what they are made of.
But I believe you can get performance-level chromaticism out of a harp with less work on the harp and less practice than full-on overblows. I don't have any evidence, this is just my impression from servicing harps from all sorts of players.
3) alternate tunings (e.g. PowerBender)
The altered tuning I see the most is Paddy Richter, again, something invented by Brendan Power.
Altered tunings are awesome. There is no one best altered tuning. (But PowerBender comes the closest! *tongue-in-cheek**)
Some of the things altered tunings can offer are chromaticism that permit optimal phrasing so that you don't have to work to hit those missing notes. On tunings like PowerBender, the juicy notes are mostly draw bends. Not only are these bends strategically placed so that it allows you to play the music and maximize the expression (the soulful bends) that only the harmonica can offer (you *couldn't* play this on the piano, even though it's a chromatic passage), but the bends are dual-reed bends and they sound full and deep.
Altered tunings are a separate discussion in of itself...
4) Extra-reed harps (Suzuki SUB-30, X-Reed)
(Brendan Power again, WTF?) I played Brendan Power's MB-30. It's surprisingly airtight and delivers everything it says it should. I only played a few licks on it, but all the bends were there and sounded nice and full.
You get chromaticism as well as chording. The single disadvantage is the price.
5) harp switching
I've seen Asian-Style harp switching and it's fantastically expressive. But harp switching can also apply to Richter diatonics. There will always be a place for this. There is no rule that says you can't pull out a second harp to play a passage during a key change (or even a single, well-placed note!) It can even add to stage presence if you do it with interest.
I choose all of the above!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 12, 2014 2:46 AM
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harpdude61
2076 posts
Aug 12, 2014
6:38 AM
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arzajac comments "In either case, overbends are single-reed bends and as such have a thinner sound than regular bends."
So in essence you are saying that a blow 4 or draw 4 will have a thinner sound because you are playing a single reed note like an overbend. Your logic implies that blow and draw bends will be richer because two reeds are sounding....My overbends don't sound thinner....not at all.
Your second option for overbending is not really worth bringing up. Why would players, even great overblow players, feel like they need to play Yankee Doodle on an "A" harp in 12 different keys? Sure you would learn much, but much time would be consumed that would have taken you a long way towards playing in a jam or band by working on 3 or 4 positions and working on other techniques.
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Last Edited by harpdude61 on Aug 12, 2014 6:40 AM
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arzajac
1443 posts
Aug 12, 2014
6:52 AM
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"So in essence you are saying that a blow 4 or draw 4 will have a thinner sound because you are playing a single reed note like an overbend."
Nope. Not at all what I am saying.
By design, the reed will sound great when playing the note it was designed to play. When you play the reed in the opposite direction, not so much. "Regular" bends are a collaboration between two reeds, one moving in the proper direction, the other moving in its opposite direction.
A single reed bend - as I am referring to here, overblows, overdraws and half-valved bends, are made by only one reed moving in its "unintended" direction.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 12, 2014 6:53 AM
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blingty
42 posts
Aug 12, 2014
8:05 AM
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Very good summary there, arzajac.
I was a die-hard overblower trying to play jazz on the one (or a limited few) diatonic(s) for some time before I realised / thought that I still would not sound good even after considerable effort and years more of study. So I switched to chromatic for chromatic music and playing in multiple keys. "D'uh", I hear you say, "that's like, obvious, dude". Sure, but sometimes the tone of the chromatic can put us off learning the chrom, and the tone and sometimes the sensibility of some players on the chrom didn't appeal to me at the time. I play half-valved chroms now so they feel more expressive to me but I've also changed my mind on fully-valved chrom as also being a very expressive instrument.
I play alternate tunings for diatonics too, like natural minor, country, Paddy Richter, etc, some of my own tunings, Powerbender sometimes.
I haven't invested significant time in valved diatonics aside from valving certain reeds for expressiveness.
Hey, you did ask.
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blintgy like soundcloud, ug
Last Edited by blingty on Aug 12, 2014 8:08 AM
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STME58
1030 posts
Aug 12, 2014
8:16 AM
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Direction, bend, designed note. All of these terms are ambiguous. Helpful, perhaps in getting a general description across but confusing if you are really trying to understand what is going on in the instrument.
I don't claim to understand what is going on in the instrument but I have been playing with another free reed instrument, the Bawu, in which most of the notes are not at the resonant frequency (designed note?) of the reed. Your embouchure is isolated from the reed by a plenum so it is mostly out of the picture.
The reed is a bit different from a harp reed but similar. The reed sounds into a pipe which you can change the resonant frequency of by placing or removing you fingers from holes in the pipe. Because there is only one reed, all of the notes are one reed notes.Bending notes is achieved by placing a finger close but not sealing a hole. The note will bend as you move your finger. The physics seem to be a combination of flute and free reed. I have wondered how the behavior of this instrument relates to an overblown harmonica.
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The Iceman
1920 posts
Aug 12, 2014
9:14 AM
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Alternate tunings are awkward for me.
I work at OB/OD on regular diatonics and like Golden Melody the best.
Tone on OB/OD doesn't quite always match those of given and regular bend notes, so I try to smooth this out by practicing the OB/OD with tone in mind.
The other aspect I work on is consciously playing a note created through OB/OD in the least conspicuous place in order to minimize the difference.
It takes a different kind of head space to factor this into the equation.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 12, 2014 9:15 AM
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mr_so&so
850 posts
Aug 12, 2014
9:37 AM
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@GMaj7, Thanks, Greg, for that side-by-side comparison. I think you got very nice tone on that 5ob, and sustained it nicely. From my own experience, practice can maximize the tone achievable on overbends. Again, from my experience, breath support from the diaphragm seems to be critical to achieving that good tone, and sustain. Many of the top overbenders can make the overbends blend in seemlessly, or at least not stand out more than regular bends do. I did try half-valving too and did not like the results as well.
@arzajac Thanks for emphasizing the contribution of Brendan Power in all this, having played a pioneering role in the last three methods listed in the initial post. I can't fathom how he manages to not only invent all these alternatives for us, but also manages to achieve considerable playing prowess in them all. The limitations of my mind and pocket book force me to choose, and I'm sticking with Richter/overbends (but remain curious about the extra-reed option).
@The Iceman, excellent points.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Aug 12, 2014 9:43 AM
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jnorem
526 posts
Aug 12, 2014
11:39 AM
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The chromatic is a cool instrument, and it can sound as funky as an overblown/overdrawn/valved diatonic. Not the same, mind you, but just as funky. Of course, if you can't play funky in the first place then nothing you play will sound that way.
It may seem daunting at first, the chromatic, but trying to produce one halfway decent overblow is beyond daunting to me. I just can't do it. Now, I intend to begin trying the valves, but in the meantime I can play it all on my chromatic harmonica and still get a nice punchy tone through my mic and amp. So there's always that, thank goodness.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Aug 12, 2014 1:32 PM
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Bilzharp
2 posts
Aug 12, 2014
12:30 PM
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I'm new here but I really appreciate arzajac's detailed summary.
For the longest time time, I figured if I needed to play chromatically I could just switch over to my sax. Finally about five years ago I decided to try overblows to see what all the fuss was about. I figured an old dog could learn some new tricks and I didn't want one of those youtube youngsters blowing me off the bandstand! I'm not great at it but do use it some when gigging and really like having all those notes opened up on a little 4-inch sandwich.
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nacoran
7925 posts
Aug 12, 2014
5:02 PM
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I've played around with a chromatic, and with a set of C/C# Huang Mussettes, but not with a lot of success. I can play most things in 1st or 2nd with a little refiguring, so in a pinch I could make do with 6 harps as long as they were spread out every other key.
There is also the Turboslide which gives you a bunch of extra notes using a magnetic slide- it changes the frequency the steel reeds swing at. I haven't really mastered it, but even just using it as a harmonica whammy bar is really fun. There is a video on their site that mentions they may eventually add it to all the reeds.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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jnorem
527 posts
Aug 12, 2014
5:48 PM
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The keys that show up the most in blues music are the easiest to play on the C chromatic harmonica, C G D A E, easy. You can play comfortably on the diatonic in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th position then you shouldn't have too hard a time shifting that over to the chromatic.
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Call me J
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Brendan Power
439 posts
Aug 13, 2014
8:10 AM
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Mr So&So asked about chromaticism on the diatonic, and Andrew summarised many of the approaches well. Later a few subsequently mentioned the chromatic harmonica.
That might seem off-topic, but I think there is a cool and very underrated middle way between diatonic and slider chromatic: the Half-Valved Chromatic.
I used to make & sell custom CX-10 half-valved chroms, a chopped-down version of the airtight and user-friendly Hohner CX-12. They gave you all the bluesy bending of a normal harp plus the semitone up slider notes, which are also bendable in the same way. It's like having a C and a C# 10 hole harp in one instrument (though I also made them in lots of other keys, as well as two different tunings in one harp, or widely different keys like G and D).
Personally I prefer half-valved chroms in PowerChromatic tuning. Here's a jazz-blues using one of those; you can see the button is barely used, but there's lots of chromaticism going on:
Here are some photos of the CX-10 and other CX-sizes:
http://www.brendan-power.com/harmonicas.php
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