Philosofy
567 posts
Jun 20, 2014
7:22 AM
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One of the reasons I held off so long is getting more customized harps is that I had one that seemed to go out of tune on me pretty quickly. It was a couple years ago that I got a Seydel 1847 Silver customized, and within a month, the 3 draw seemed to go out of tune. So I put that harp on a shelf.
Since then, I had Andrew Zajac work on several of my harps, and I've been very happy with them. But the other night I was at a jam, and my 4 draw gave out in the middle of a song. After my solo, I was able to clear it out by blowing some chords in and out (away from the microphone.) But I wondered if a custom harp with narrow tolerances from embossing would be more prone to sticking due to saliva build up.
And the other day, I took out that Seydel that was out of tune. I was thinking of bringing it to SPAH and fixing it there. So I went through the notes, and sure enough the 3 draw was flat by half a step. Then I played it some more, and it wasn't. Then it was. It turns out that the 3 draw bent a half step very, very easily. Too easily. Can any customizers comment on this?
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barbequebob
2604 posts
Jun 20, 2014
8:50 AM
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I'm no customizer but the truth is that you need to further refine your playing technique and if you're guilty of something many players are, and that's using too much breath force, there will usually be a tendency to play with an extremely wet mouth and that means tons of excess saliva and dead skin will bet built up on the reeds and so the narrower tolerances get more easily clogged up and also the reeds will get out of tune depending upon where it dries on the reed, so from experience with using customs, you need to further refine your playing technique, which is obvious that you've yet to learn that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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arzajac
1405 posts
Jun 20, 2014
9:17 AM
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Hi Phil.
I haven't seen that.
It's not just embossing that makes them more responsive, but increased airtightness and optimum reed shape. Does that make them more fragile?
If anything, the harps I work on seem to last longer. For example, the hardest and wettest player I know sends me harps for reed replacement. He plays mostly Seydels and has blown quite a few stainless reeds! Often enough, some of his reeds are not blown, just stuck in dried goop.
I've gotten to know his collection and I don't see the harps I have worked on nearly as much as the out-of-the-box ones. And a number of other players have told me that their serviced or custom harps last longer.
Also, I don't get harps for repair with shorter reeds ("tighter-playing" harps) with seized up reeds more than harps with longer reeds. "I've got a man down here!" as MP says about stuck reeds... To me, that's another clue to the fact that it's not the harp setup that makes it more likely for reeds to get stuck.
And as far as hitting lower notes on pitch, that's an interesting topic. Those reeds are longer and tend to flatten a lot more than higher reeds when played with the same force - that's a tuning issue. It's also common to hit them with a bit of a bend even when you are aiming for the unbent note - that's a technique issue.
So the question is whether the harp should help you deal with that; meet you half way either by being tuned sharper than it needs to be or made to be less responsive. Or should the harp just be the best it can be and the onus is on you to fix your embouchure?
I would tend to agree with the latter since that will offer a more definitive solution to the problem. And you shouldn't only be able to play one harp properly, your technique should work on every harp you own.
That being said, if that harp is not adjusted to your playing style, it's not really "customized" is it? I don't believe a custom harp has to be tight. If you are a hard player, a harp adjusted for light breath won't work for you. Could that be the problem with the 1847 you have?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jun 20, 2014 9:19 AM
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Philosofy
568 posts
Jun 20, 2014
12:19 PM
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Andrew, I should clarify that my stuck reed on your harp was only temporary, and I cleared it when my solo was done. I was just wondering if the tight tolerance that embossing gives might cause a reed to stick with less saliva.
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Ted Burke
31 posts
Jun 20, 2014
12:23 PM
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The downside to a custom harp is that you had to pay for a custom harp rather than buying a good harmonica in the first place. As the going rate for harmonicas starts, generally, at sixty dollars and up, having them tweaked further for yet another fee seems ridiculous.
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MP
3235 posts
Jun 20, 2014
12:38 PM
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@ Ted :-)
@ Phil The things that make the harp perform better do not cause problems.
If "we got a man down here!" it is more often than not pilot error. Sorry, don't mean to sound like a know it all. Have a good day. :-)
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
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SmokeJS
266 posts
Jun 20, 2014
3:12 PM
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The only issue I have with my custom arzajac harps is that as my playing improves my breath force is decreasing. So I'm an evolving harp player but my harps were set up for a slightly different player. The result of these changes mostly seems to affect the 2 draw. They now seem like I have to draw harder than I want to. I know a bit about gapping etc.. but I'm hesitant to work on a customized harp so will eventually return to Andrew for a tuneup.
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pharpo
740 posts
Jun 20, 2014
6:47 PM
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I started my "custom collection" about 6 years ago.My first few were from "dude harp"....a bunch of Deaks.....a Harvey harp....and one from Richard Sleigh. I have had , in those six years maybe 3 reeds go bad out of my twelve - gig harps. They have helped me with my "breath force" because more of the air I put in goes where it is supposed to. When I first got back in to playing again, I was blowing many more reeds. I would say the only downside is the added expense....but then again.....you get what you pay for.
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Procrastinator Emeritus
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GMaj7
441 posts
Jun 20, 2014
9:13 PM
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Philosophy - Your 3 draw is probably bending down because the 3 blow reed is gapped to close. Open it up a little and then practice a few minutes with a chromatic tuner. The 3 draw bend is a dual reed bend and it relies on the interaction of both reeds.
I'm happy to walk you through it if you email me back channel.
Micro adjustments to your personal playing style will help you improve your technique and musicianship.
Personally I think wayyyy too much attention is given on this forum to "customizing".. it just won't go away...
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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STME58
926 posts
Jun 21, 2014
10:26 AM
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@GMaj7 wrote, "Personally I think wayyyy too much attention is given on this forum to "customizing".. it just won't go away..."
This is not unique to harmonicas. I used to race cars and bicycles and the same thing occurred in both. My favorite example of just what you are saying was at a slalom in Long Beach where the promoter set up a gimick that pitted five current professional drivers against 5 Playboy centerfold models. As you can imagine it was fun and humorous to watch. I also noticed that even though they were all driving stock Toyotas, the pro drivers times were faster than almost all of the expensive highly customized slalom cars competing that day.
It is kind of fun to discuss the tech stuff and it is easier to make a change to your equipment that to make a change in yourself. Good equipment IS important and it does help, but it is not the most important thing.
I still learning, but I have found from experience that some harps will overblow out of the box and some won't. On some models the odds of getting a good overblow harp out of the box are better than others. I share Teds frustration that the higher priced harps aren't more consistent from the manufactures, but that's the way it is. I can't overblow well yet but I think learning on a harp you know has been set up to overblow is helpful because you are not always wondering, is it me or the harp? I am finding that as my skill improves, harps that would not overblow before will now.
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Frank
4597 posts
Jun 21, 2014
11:51 AM
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Depending on what songs I'm playing - I much prefer a looser harp that feels like it has all the windows and doors open so to speak :)
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harpwrench
873 posts
Jun 21, 2014
1:32 PM
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We could apply the same logic and evangelize that everyone should be playing pocket pals from the Cracker Barrel too, they have the same notes and a good player can make em work just fine. Audience would likely not hear the difference. That's the argument against customs, right?
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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MP
3236 posts
Jun 21, 2014
3:29 PM
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I don't think there is an argument against customs. In every hobby there are the tech guys who love to talk tech. The other day I heard two kids talking about mopeds and keeping things stock or not depending on year. yes! they had vintage mopeds! LOL!
I've learned soooo much just reading harpwrench, BBQBob, David Payne,chromaticblues,htownfess,arzajac, and Gmaj7th talk techy stuff. Unfortunately the late Buddha kept his cards close to his chest. W/ me at least.
I'd be nowhere w/out you guys. So, Mahalo as we say here in Honolulu.
I had a Johnson Blues King in Eb I loved for SBWII stuff but tossed it or gave it away because I prefer my self built custom harps. When you make them for yourself they are really customs. :-)
have a good day.
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Affordable Reed Replacement
Marks Harmonica Tune-up
Click user name MP for contact info
Last Edited by MP on Jun 21, 2014 3:36 PM
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Frank
4601 posts
Jun 21, 2014
5:20 PM
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Ya mun...there is cheap, then there is the pocket pal - thats a whole nuther level of shitty :)
I'm talkin bout just a good ole fashion MB warts an all, many times they are just what the doctored ordered :)
Nobody I know wants to play those "toy harps" :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 21, 2014 5:21 PM
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tmf714
2587 posts
Jun 21, 2014
6:02 PM
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Downsides to a custom harp? None for me-
Full set of Filskos and a few Spiers-I wont ever go back to OOB. The Crossovers and Thunderbirds are great harps,but after playing full custom harps,its not easy to go back to playing stock harps. The breath force and playabilty of the customs are totally different. It would be difficult to play a mixture of the two in a live setting without some serious playing adjustments.
Rod says he uses OOB harps because he does not want to learn how to play a custom-and there is a learning curve involved.
May be ok for players like Hummel,Piazza,Cotton and Mitch,but players like Kim,Dennis and Howard have learned the intricacies of playing a full custom harp.
Do you WANT a custom harp? Yes. Do you NEED a custom harp-that depends.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 21, 2014 6:03 PM
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robbert
326 posts
Jun 21, 2014
7:30 PM
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My reason for embarking on the whole custom harp adventure was to have an instrument I could trust had the capability of producing obs, so I could develop my technique.
Why learn to ob? For me, a personal challenge, and a doorway to exploring all the musical possibilities that a diatonic harp can express(kudos to Howard, and others who followed).
Did the custom harp help me to do this. Absolutely. I could never be sure the ootb harp could produce obs, or if my technique was at fault.
Can I now ob on ootb box harps? Quite regularly, at least on some of the holes, on a variety of models.
Did this quest lead me to work on my own harps? Yes.
Did I have to work extensively on embouchure and breath control? Yes.
Have I integrated obs into my standard playing? Only in a limited way. Still working on that, as I become more comfortable with the extended palette now available to me.
Would I have been okay to remain where I was without struggling to learn this technique? Probably, but I feel like it is worth it to pursue because it has forced me to explore a lot more on the harp.
Do I now have a bunch of harps that only sort of work for the various things I'm doing? Yes, unfortunately.A really good custom is expensive and worth it. It can do almost anything. But when you've been messing on your own harps, you end up with a bunch of hybrid creations in terms of overbending easily vs. sticking, etc.
So this whole thing is a process. Learning technique, learning harmonica mechanics, learning music. Refining. Not everyone has the need to do this. I feel I've learned a tremendous amount about how to play this instrument, from where I
started.
But I could just as easily put in the time in a hundred different ways that likely would have yielded
effective results of some kind.
Anyway, it's all mostly a lot of fun.
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Frank
4604 posts
Jun 22, 2014
3:43 AM
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Yep... custom harps play remarkably well - that is the MAIN difference...
There are no surprises when you go to any reed on the high end or low end -
they are going to respond the way you have always dreamt they should,
they are a dream come true to play and bend.
Fulfill one of your wildest dreams and buy a custom harp today :)
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florida-trader
499 posts
Jun 22, 2014
6:07 AM
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I think the most salient point that has been made in this thread was made by STME58.
He said, “I think learning on a harp you know has been set up to overblow is helpful because you are not always wondering, is it me or the harp? I am finding that as my skill improves, harps that would not overblow before will now.”
Better equipment opens doors for you that you either never knew existed or were struggling to find. So if you want to get better, upgraded harps can give you a huge boost. That’s not an absolute. Not everyone needs a custom to be a great harp player and we could list a lot of big names that fall into that category. But most harp players will benefit from playing a harp that has been improved. In my opinion, if you are serious about playing the harp you should strongly consider buying customized harps from someone who knows what they are doing or learn to do it yourself. And for the sake of clarification, I am using the word “customized” loosely because we all know that it is a term that has different meanings to each of us. Let’s just say that for most of us mortals, it is advisable to consider playing harps that have been “improved” as compared to an OOTB by either someone who knows what they are doing or by yourself.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jun 22, 2014 6:07 AM
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arzajac
1407 posts
Jun 22, 2014
7:36 AM
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:) It's like we have this same conversation every four weeks.... It's like a regular get-together.
See you all next month, guys! I'll bring the chips, Frank, next time it's your turn to bring the beer.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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groyster1
2626 posts
Jun 22, 2014
7:40 AM
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using forrest gump quote,getting an ootb harp is like a box of chocolates....you never know what you are going to get
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Frank
4610 posts
Jun 22, 2014
10:48 AM
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even Harley is going custom crazy - maybe more so once they put banana handle bars on it :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 22, 2014 10:51 AM
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walterharp
1427 posts
Jun 22, 2014
11:33 AM
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if you regularly blow out reeds on harmonicas, then no, customs are probably not worth it. That was Bob's point. Customizers will replace reeds for you at a bit lower than new reed plates, but higher cost than replacing them yourself. with greater lag time as well.
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