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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
playing vs. talking about playing: an observation
playing vs. talking about playing: an observation
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kudzurunner
4747 posts
Jun 20, 2014
5:16 AM
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I've recently been struck by something that I suspect many here have noticed: there's a big difference between that the musician's brain & soul work when the musician is actually making music and the way that same musician's brain & soul work when he is posting on this forum. Or at least I think there's a difference, in my case, and I'm curious about others.
When I play--as I was doing at a gig last night with Alan Gross--I'm just giving. I'm giving something to the audience. I'm trying to assemble stuff, notes, rhythms, in way that have flow and make sense. The harp in my hand, the mic, the sounds coming out of my amp, are just tools, colors on an artist's palette, that help me do that. The brand of harp means nothing. The techniques I use are just means to achieve an end, and I don't think about them at all. Most of my focus is going on whatever it is in my musical soul that wants to push out a stream of notes that sound good to my ears in the moment. I'm not thinking about other players--my peers, you guys here, my students, YouTube. I'm not thinking about how modern or traditional my playing is. Sometimes, when I'm playing well and feeling good, I think about trying to leap a little higher, a little further, in a particular solo--trying to do something I've never quite done. So there's a shelf of licks that are "second serve" licks, stuff that sounds good and that I can hit without much trouble, and then there's a higher shelf of first-serve licks that only begin to make themselves present to me when I'm on my game, when I"m warmed up, when it's the second set and the bourbon is working on me.
That's what it's actually like to be me, playing harp on a gig: making music.
Here, though, except in a rare stream-of-consciousness reverie like this, I spent a lot of my time amazed, aghast, at how frequently folks here use this forum as a way of creating bad vibes. Finding reasons not just to disagree with each other, but to put each other down.
There have certainly been times in the past seven years when I have insisted on certain critical distinctions (between modern and traditionalist orientations, for example) that led me to be critical of certain attitudes, stylistic orientations, and even individual players. But I rarely do that these days. And I'm completely uninterested in cultivating and nourishing bad will.
I spend more time than I want, in fact, consulting with my three loyal moderators and trying to put out fires--which is to say, trying to figure out how to deal with folks who seem intent on creating bad will.
My point is simply that the urge to make music, as it plays out in actual on-the-gig playing, has almost nothing to do with that sort of negativity. I hope that this post, and this thread, might help remind at least a couple of you guys of that fact--or enlighten you to it, if you didn't know.
This doesn't mean that this forum can't be a place for spirited disagreements. It just means that when those disagreements become personal, filled with genuine disdain, outrage, etc., you might think about what I've shared here.
Now, it's certainly possible that some of you might disagree with my foundational distinction. You might say, "Hey Adam, when I am blowing harp on a gig, I'm thinking about shoving your face, and jnorem's, and tmf's, in a stinking toilet. I'm saying fuck the whole buncha you guys!" Some people blow the blues from a standpoint that is filled with rage at the world in general and even, in some cases, at specific other people. But even if that strong negativity is active in them--and it has, at certain points in my life, been active in me--I still believe that the actual moment of creativity lifts them beyond that negativity. It's still about getting down in the trench and slinging mud in a creative, interesting way. It's still about giving something beautiful to an audience. And, in that moment, it's not about the make and model of harp. It's about what the hunk of metal in your hand actually enables you to create.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jun 20, 2014 5:20 AM
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Frank
4571 posts
Jun 20, 2014
6:20 AM
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Forums are fantasy worlds Adam...Folks would benefit from observing comedians to help them with their forum etiquette and to deal with silly differences :)
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robbert
322 posts
Jun 20, 2014
6:51 AM
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Even when forum disagreements start to become a little distasteful, and it seems to be human nature for discussions to get personal sometimes,the benefits of the forum existing far outweigh the disadvantages. Knowledge gets spread here, and that's the overriding feature, in my opinion.
So, yeah, let's not get hurtful,ya'll. This place is just way too cool to abuse.
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walterharp
1422 posts
Jun 20, 2014
7:17 AM
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I always maintain it is better to take the positive and ignore the negative, but there will always be a bad apple.. an ill harmonica that nobody blows good sucks when it doesn't totally blow...
There are negative people who play music as well. Their main goal is to impress others and they think doing so requires them to be better than the other musicians on the stand, rather than working to serve the music. They love head cutting if they win, and it pains them when somebody is obviously better than them and will do anything to take them down a notch. "that is not real music or the way it should be played" "yeah technically good but no soul" are common ways to accomplish this.
I also suspect some people view this forum as a performance and their posts as improvisation meant to impress others (hence my stupid ill harmonica joke above), so not so far from actually playing music after all. You can either make the band/ forum better through synergistic cooperation or be a hater and a tear it down in an effort to bring yourself up.
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RG500
12 posts
Jun 20, 2014
7:18 AM
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Great post, I don't read enough stuff about people
just having fun playing for the love of it.
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Tuckster
1428 posts
Jun 20, 2014
8:16 AM
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We're all a bit of the armchair quarterbacks on this forum. The more experienced player mostly give constructive criticism. The less experienced ones tend to be emotional in their responses.
I find it frustrating sometimes when I see 100 responses to an amp/mic/gear question and only 3 responses to a question on how to actually play the damn thing.
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Diggsblues
1378 posts
Jun 20, 2014
8:26 AM
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I used to share a house with a guy that was an M.D. Phd
in biochemistry he ran a lab at the University of Pennsylvania and later moved on to the Harvard Medical group. He was also a great musician.
We used to go see Jimmy Bruno the great jazz guitarisn philly. He commented once that he couldn't even begin to fathom the neurons firing in jimmy's brain when played. Maybe that's being in the moment.
Emile
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CarlA
530 posts
Jun 20, 2014
8:42 AM
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Tuckster said..."We're all a bit of the armchair quarterbacks on this forum. The more experienced player mostly give constructive criticism. The less experienced ones tend to be emotional in their responses."
I am surprised that barely any of the top level harmonica players (pros) post on this forum. But then again, you see some making an attempt to share their knowledge and skill and they are just told that they have shi*t tone. Do you think Rod, Kim, dennis, rick, mark, etc would bother wasting their time sharing on this forum? They know better than to place themselves in the path of unnecessary criticism, especially by other harp players not worthy to wipe the spittle from their harps.
I may be wrong Adam, but I believe this thread was started in direct response to the poor etiquette that was demonstrated to JR on the "scratch my back" thread.
But to answer your question Adam, I play to make music. That is the bottom-line
Last Edited by CarlA on Jun 20, 2014 8:45 AM
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kudzurunner
4748 posts
Jun 20, 2014
8:49 AM
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I'm afraid that you are wrong, CarlA. I didn't begin this thread as a direct response to any other specific thread. I began it because I had a great gig last night.
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The Iceman
1754 posts
Jun 20, 2014
9:52 AM
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CarlA - I feel that you are a bit off track with your comment above. Some of the pros do post on this forum...some are so busy that they post when they get the time.
As to criticism, the true Pro who posts a "controversial" sound or approach (or has it posted "for him" by someone else) would not participate if all he wanted was love showered all over him. The true pros realize that not everything pleases everyone all the time and are open to helpful/constructive comments.
The problem (as I perceive it) is that (for instance the "scratch my back" thread) not all the postings are professional, helpful, insightful or instructive. Some are dipped in personal emotion and a skewed right or wrong philosophy.
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The Iceman
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dougharps
647 posts
Jun 20, 2014
10:10 AM
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I think that playing (making) music is very different from forum discussion.
Making music, to me, is to open myself to allow music to flow, as though I were a conduit for the music. The more technique and knowledge I have, the better I can open myself to express music in the moment. I am not thinking words, or note names, or theory; I am thinking tones and textures. I join with the other musicians to create a whole greater than the sum of its parts (when it comes together).
Discussion of anything tends to fall prey to dualistic thinking: something is either good or bad, pick one. Since forum members care deeply about blues and harmonica it is easy to slip into argument instead of discussion to understand each others views. When someone questions our views on a topic in which we are invested, we tend to become defensive and strident.
Our heads are in very different places when posting and when playing.
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Doug S.
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wolfkristiansen
286 posts
Jun 20, 2014
10:52 AM
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It's much more rewarding to make good music than to talk about making good music.
That said, it's fun to talk about what we love, as we do in this forum.
I have a simple rule that works for me in this and other forums: say what you want, but avoid the temptation to answer back if someone follows your post with a strong, even nasty disagreement. Don't get sucked into having to have the last word.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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nacoran
7815 posts
Jun 20, 2014
1:19 PM
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With a couple post exceptions here and there I've enjoyed the threads that are getting lots of hits right now. Although there are people saying, 'I don't like this' there are lots of people articulating exactly what they do or don't like about something. From a learning perspective, if you can listen to someone else's music and figure out what it is about it you like and don't like you are closer to figuring out how to make your music sound like what you want your music to sound like. I was glad to see some people trying to steer the conversation that way. There are eureka moments when someone else articulates a concept you are trying to figure out for yourself. I had moments like that in both the Scratch thread and the LB/TB thread. (I suddenly understood that I was a lip blocker, not a lip purser! -except for rare times when I am deliberately trying to thin my tone.)
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Nate
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Frank
4579 posts
Jun 20, 2014
1:39 PM
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A golden rule for those of us in marriages that we want to keep going in a positive direction - is to never attack the person- but address how their behavior made you feel.
Female Spouse...The hamburgers are ready - hope they are good enough, I wasn't paying attention and burnt them sorry!
Male Spouse...I hate the way you make hamburgers - you always mess them up - I'm starving and would rather eat horseshit then those crappy burgers you made.
How could the male spouse address this problem - where the female spouse would feel compelled to work with her partner in finding solutions to satisfy all concerned and ultimately strengthen their loving bond?
Please share a better way :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 20, 2014 1:47 PM
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tbirdflier
54 posts
Jun 20, 2014
9:07 PM
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Along with playing harmonica, I play golf. When I hit the ball really well I can feel it right up through the shaft of the club. I don't even have to look because I have that magic feel between club and ball that tells me I've just hit the shit out of it.
Same sort of thing happens when I play harmonica, it's not a forced thing, it just happens. Any number of things dictate that happening, like whom your playing with and maybe it's just a "good hair day" and everything falls into place. It is being in the moment and appreciating those special moments when you can do no wrong, or so it seems. :)
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wolfkristiansen
287 posts
Jun 20, 2014
9:36 PM
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More about what kudzurunner is talking about-- when we play, we play in the moment. For me, that is always better than talking about the moment.
I played on stage the last two weekends, and shall play tomorrow at a supper club. (Dine and Dance!). I am looking forward to it.
When we write (excepting Twitter?) we are not writing in the moment. We take the time to offer some (hopefully) well considered words before hitting "send" or mailing our letter or publishing our manuscript. We can take a minute, an hour, a day, a week, a month or a decade to do this.
On stage, on the other hand, we play in the moment. The band is there, the audience is there, it's show time! Even when we record, we are playing in the moment-- playing in time with the rest of the musicians, or maybe in time to the tracks they've already laid down.
I love that feeling. You're not thinking about what you just did, you're not thinking about what you're going to do. You play, that instant, with everybody else, listening and responding to them as they listen and respond to you.
This post takes me back to my university years, and a book I read by Ram Dass, aka Richard Alpert, written from a Zen Buddhist perspective. It stayed with me. It was called "Be Here Now". In a nutshell, its message was that we spend too much time thinking about the past and planning for the future. We spend so much time doing this we fail to notice the beauty surrounding us every instant we are on this earth.
Harp content-- Over the decades, I (and my harp) have occasionally found myself on a stage where a song is called that I've never heard, much less played. It might be blues, it might not be. If I'm lucky the key is called out just before the song is counted in. I have survived, by playing in the moment. I don't know exactly what I'm going to play, but when I get the nod, a fitting solo somehow finds its way out of my head/heart/guts. I'm living in the moment. I love it.
I don't play often, even less often for money. But the thrill of spontaneously creating music, on this humble four inch piece of metal we call a harmonica, is so overwhelming that all my professional careers are forever relegated to the status of "day jobs".
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
Last Edited by wolfkristiansen on Jun 20, 2014 9:43 PM
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Jehosaphat
757 posts
Jun 20, 2014
10:29 PM
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Well said Wolf
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BronzeWailer
1322 posts
Jun 21, 2014
5:18 AM
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From the 23 & 30 December 2013 New Yorker, in an article about the founding of the Geological Society of London in 1807.
"There followed long, often spirited debates on matters such as where to fix the Devonian period. 'Though I don't much care for geology,' one early visitor to the meetings noted, 'I do like to see the fellows fight.'"
BronzeWailer's YouTube
Last Edited by BronzeWailer on Jun 21, 2014 5:19 AM
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Frank
4588 posts
Jun 21, 2014
6:01 AM
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chromaticblues
1580 posts
Jun 21, 2014
6:28 AM
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Yes I agree with the opening post VERY much!
That is the reason why I rarely post anything these days.
There just doesn't seem to be a positive outcome to anything! It also seems like some people are just addicted to the internet. Or have a forum fetish!
I don't know?
I find it very unusual that there are soooo many people (that play the same instrument that I do) that can find things to argue about?
I love playing the harmonica and people enjoy my music. That's all good! How I do it and what I do it with is my business. I think more people should have that outlook and not worry to much about how and what other people do! Unless your in learning mode. Then retrieve what you like and leave the rest.
There's positive and negative everywhere. It all boils down to what do you what to see and talk about?
Last Edited by chromaticblues on Jun 24, 2014 9:29 AM
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SuperBee
2082 posts
Jun 21, 2014
6:41 AM
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Kevin, I understand what you mean, but also let me take this opportunity to say I appreciated your posts regarding my amp. They were thought- provoking and helpful. In fact, now that I've messed with it a little, I'm gonna do as you suggested and remove that cathode bypass cap on stage 1.
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harpoon_man
55 posts
Jun 21, 2014
6:52 AM
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Adam: I totally agree with you. The points you articulated are the main reasons I do not post here more often. These issues are not limited to this forum, however - I see the same things happening on forums about brewing, trucks, etc.
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rpnfan
3 posts
Jun 21, 2014
9:02 AM
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I'm pretty new to this forum (and harmonica) and just do not understand some of the heated discussions. For me music is to my enjoyment, something where I can relax and have fun - it's aliment for my soul.
I know that not all the music I appreciate is liked by others and vice versa. That's fine. So if someone prefers another kind of music -- including another kind of harmonica playing or technique -- that is fine. In such a case I do normally not see a reason to post that I do not like that, because this does not "add" to the discussion usually.
I used to be active in the newsgroups for the HP48 calculator (yes, some people are a little bit weird and discuss things like that ;-) ) and found nearly always a pleasant tone, where experienced users tried to be helpful for newbies and other experts alike. So it's possible :-)
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Frank
4590 posts
Jun 21, 2014
9:18 AM
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People are going to play what they like...
which often times is going to be exactly what others don't like...
and even if we do like it...
but it ain't the way we would of done it...
or think it should be done -
then we'll often fill obliged to let our feelings known...
This can be challenging for some of us to communicate our displeasure in an assertively helpful way.
When we are overly syrupy/ass kissing in our replies - that can be just as annoying in it's own delicious way too.
Communication is an art form in and of it self...
and we often get it wrong because of that very fact.
God save the Queen :)
-
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 21, 2014 12:39 PM
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tookatooka
3667 posts
Jun 21, 2014
9:35 AM
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I'm all for less talking and more posting your playing on here.
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Frank
4598 posts
Jun 21, 2014
12:25 PM
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jbone
1660 posts
Jun 21, 2014
3:14 PM
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I have been guilty a time or two of taking a negative approach in a comment on a particular topic here. When this was pointed out I immediately apologized on the thread and changed my behavior so as to respect others' dignity. I don't have to agree to be an agreeable member here. The old saw, if you can't say something nice, say nothing, applies I think.
When I'm playing out- like the last two nights- I'm in the music, I am giving like Adam. I want folks to like what's going on and I want to get a good response. I do my best. Every time out is different: people, room acoustics, outdoor venues, amps, no amps, how hard did I work that day, etc etc etc. I'm not thinking about anything not totally in that moment. The internet, the dvd waiting at home, the cat, what he said, what she did, nothing exists but the moment and how I can relate to my partner and to the audience, be it 2, 20, or 2000. There is no time for negativity.
One place we play is an outdoor market. Vendors- some of them- don't like us musicians and are very up front about it. Last time this happened we just asked the security guy if we could move and he placed us next to more friendly vendors. Nothing was lost, we still got to play some cool stuff and some folks got to dig us and we had a great morning!
When I'm here I try to be civil and respectful. I appreciate others' efforts to do the same. I grew up with enough toxicity to last my remaining life span, I don't need any extra.
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The Iceman
1757 posts
Jun 21, 2014
4:57 PM
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jbone - when you do the outdoor market, vendors are very volume conscious, because they are there to talk to their customers and sell.
Live music is nice, but if the band's amps are pointing toward a vendor booth, it makes it hard for that vendor to do commerce. You also have to remember that many times the volume is actually louder when you move away from your general vicinity.
So, please respect the vendors and watch the volume. This is the #1 reason that some vendors don't like musicians.
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The Iceman
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Frank
4600 posts
Jun 21, 2014
5:05 PM
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harpoon_man
56 posts
Jun 21, 2014
5:27 PM
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@ rpnfan: Awesome handle - There may not be a lot of folks here who immediately get it, but I do...I've been using an HP48(GX, only the best for me :-)) for 20 years now. Happy harping!
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Frank
4602 posts
Jun 21, 2014
5:35 PM
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I thought it stood for Rod Piazzas Number1 Fan :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jun 21, 2014 5:37 PM
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JustFuya
300 posts
Jun 21, 2014
5:59 PM
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Honorable mention should also be made of the frequent frenzy of helpfulness that pour from many threads here.
I think opinions on this forum reflect the real world much better than other forums, ie Facebook, which has no dislike button. I've grown respect for some contributors and therefore give their opinions more weight.
Saying and playing are certainly 2 different things. My main purpose here is to improve my playing in order to experience more of those precious moments, outside the shed, where everything and everyone clicks extraordinarily.
That being said, there are some mornings when I revisit my own posts after placing the beer bottles into the recycle bin. I don't think I've had to edit out any barbs but I do include OT meanderings in my cleanup routine.
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paperharmonica
18 posts
Jun 21, 2014
6:14 PM
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I enjoy the threads where we try to teach each other and learn from each other.
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jbone
1662 posts
Jun 21, 2014
8:33 PM
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@iceman- total acoustic. And I know the vendors pay good cash up front to rent their spaces. The folks who run things have their hands full every time the market is open. Jo and I go to the designated spots to play after getting the go-ahead from the coordinator gal. All the times we've played there over 6 years or so we've had only 2 brushes with vendors, and many times we see a vendor come by and drop a buck in the jar for us.
As musicians we work every bit as hard in some ways as the guys passing out produce etc. We don't pay as much for about 4 feet by 8 feet of space and we don't stay but 2 hours usually. Some acts are 4 piece and they tend to cause some bottleneck issues but we keep the smallest footprint possible. 2 chairs and a music stand, and the guitar case out front to hold tips and display cds is it.
I'd rather move than have an argument, which is not good for anyone involved. There are also other choices of markets if it comes down to it. But the majority of people involved there at the Big market accept us and we accommodate those who don't.
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nacoran
7820 posts
Jun 21, 2014
9:49 PM
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STME58, I just restored all of them, but looking at your last post it looks like you managed to stumble onto a way to get around it. :)
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Nate
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atty1chgo
973 posts
Jun 22, 2014
8:30 AM
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I agree with Adam on his points pretty much.
In addition, getting on a stage and playing is not only an uplifting experience, but a humbling one as well, depending on the moment. When it's good, you just feel great. When you see that you might not be as good as you think that you are, the negativity that might have been expressed toward someone about playing might become tempered. The distinction is clear.
That being said, I have never been a fan of political correctness, and as the concept of "correctness" is applied to other genres and areas of life as well. I speak my mind. I don't park my sense of hearing and the analytical senses at the door when either entering this Forum or listening to music, and I don't plan on doing it anytime soon.
As is in everyday life, there are persons in this forum's world that you just won't get along with. There is something about their chemistry, their manner, their approach to speaking and communicating that for whatever reason will not jive with yours. That's OK. That's what makes us all unique.
I agree that toxicity for its own sake should be avoided. But one's man's perceived negativity might not be that to another. Throttling one's true feelings and making one's point with decorum at the same time is a fine art. It is enhanced by an expanded view of the English language and its creative use. Everyone like to read a well written post within a discussion and not posts of the "this music sucks" variety.
But then I recall someone about a month ago chastising kudzurunner for his writing and complaining that he was just trying to pontificate or show us how smart he is (or something like that, I am giving a rough summary of that person's position) and I conclude that sometimes you just cannot win. You aren't going to please everyone ever.
I don't think its all about rage. We are all living our lives at the same time, and sometimes parts of our life outside the Forum spill out into our posts. That's natural. If we all take a pledge not to take things too personal, then forum member expression will find its proper level of importance or irrelevance naturally without unwanted restraints.
In the immortal words of Ray Stevens -
Everything is beautiful, in its own way.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Jun 22, 2014 8:44 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
1207 posts
Jun 23, 2014
4:53 AM
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- KUDOS KUDZU -
Great post, agreed with everything Kudzu said, and it caused me to re-evaluate which threads I read/respond to and why. I joined this forum to get better at harp and over the years I have slowly drifted into reading threads that have no capacity to help me do that. Shame on me.
I am taking my own personal pledge to longer read or post on threads that will not advance my playing. Please note that I'm not suggesting anyone else need/should do this, this is a me problem.
For example, in the recent thread about Jason's playing I chimed in to say I didn't care for the effect he was using. So what? Who cares? How did posting that help me get any better? And the time spent composing that brief missive after listening to the track could have been better spent perfecting some aspect of my own playing. Even writing this is a questionable use of time, but for me I feel if I write this and post it I'm far more likely to adhere to my own pledge.
Finally, I realize this wasn't exactly what Kudzu was expressing in his original post (I think he was just expressing the difference between the creative and negative mindsets of a musician in general), but it did affect me in this way, so thanks to Kudzu for that.
So that's it for me....... from here on out only threads that can help advance my playing, or in which I could possibly (though doubtful) help somebody else.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Jun 23, 2014 7:09 AM
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atty1chgo
975 posts
Jun 23, 2014
6:32 AM
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Zero tolerance on what, Hakan?
We aren't your children, and we aren't in an elementary school classroom. I think that the guidelines have been clearly set forth. I was going to say that "This is America", but it isn't, and we should not assume that all people here are used to exercising freedom of speech. This is, of course, an international forum.
As with all forums, this is a communications forum. Just as any other social media, each person has to evaluate his or her's own life's time and intent in relation to the blog space. (I've been off of Facebook now for almost three months, and it has worked out OK).
With regard to not posting unless it advances one's own playing, that is a personal decision on how to spend your time. Everyone should do it on their own and not worry about whether someone else thinks that your waste of time is a waste of their time. JMHO.
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Frank
4625 posts
Jun 23, 2014
6:59 AM
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If a person is not getting amusement out of 99.99% of what is written in threads - you may be a redneck :)
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harpnoodler
71 posts
Jun 23, 2014
7:39 AM
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Thanks to those of you who have taught me to skim text so efficiently, like sifting through tons of dirt to find the odd diamond. Thanks even more to those of you who so thoughtfully pepper the mounds of dirt with diamonds!
;p
Andrew
Last Edited by harpnoodler on Jun 23, 2014 7:40 AM
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harpoon_man
57 posts
Jun 23, 2014
1:31 PM
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@ STME58: LOL, absolutely correct!
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