Frank
4351 posts
May 24, 2014
10:12 AM
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Should Hohner buy out all other harp businesses and merge them into Hohners own unique way of doing things? Would most harp players support that take over? If not why?
And could an ace customizer build a professional harp using the parts and reeds from all manufacturers currently out there? Have holes 1-3 Hohner reeds, holes 4-6 Suzuki etc..The top cover Huang the bottom Hering - the comb Oskar, the bolts B-rad etc...
And would you purchase a harp like that as a keepsake :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 24, 2014 10:14 AM
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TheoBurke
643 posts
May 24, 2014
10:45 AM
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No. It was only the rise of competition musicians were willing to switch to --Lee Oskar, Suzuki, Seydel--that forced Hohner to up their game and produce better instruments. Competition motivates innovation and better quality control. If Hohner owned all the harmonica makers, quality would suffer greatly, in my view.
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Ted Burke
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.coM
Last Edited by TheoBurke on May 24, 2014 12:41 PM
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STME58
835 posts
May 24, 2014
10:51 AM
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I agree with what Ted said. I do understand that the economies of scale would give a merged company opportunities to do things in better ways. But it would also remove the incentive to do so.
Frank, are you a college professor? You keep throwing out this controversial, thought provoking (perhaps argument starting) stuff.
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Frank
4352 posts
May 24, 2014
11:01 AM
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I'm a Professor of Love, Spiritual Oneness and communicable understanding...Controversy is only evil when given the reigns to be, this discussion is certainly thought provoking yes, but to get argumentative over this subject would only enlighten the forces of those who wish to destroy all things good, beautiful and intellectually fulfilling :) I thought it was the customizers who caused the harp manufacturers to compete at a higher level?
Last Edited by Frank on May 24, 2014 11:06 AM
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KingoBad
1467 posts
May 24, 2014
11:21 AM
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They only looked to the customizers because of the competition from other similar products. Customizers fulfill a niche, but they still require the instruments to customize.
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Danny
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STME58
836 posts
May 24, 2014
11:24 AM
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One of the problems with the harp industry is that most harps are seldom, if ever used. They are cheap enough to buy out of curiosity or as a gift, they get tooted a few times and stuck in a drawer. I expect there is more money made from these "Drawer Harps" than from the ones that are actually played. That right there takes a lot of the incentive out of quality control. As the quality goes down on the cheap harps, so does the likelihood that the curious buyer will continue with the harp after buying one. Does anyone know what the worldwide market for harmonicas is in units,or what percentage of these are actually played?
I am not sure I have the timing right but did the Suzuki Manji come out before the Hohner Crossover? This seems like an example of competition driving improvement. Do you think there would be a Crossover if not for the Manji? Do you think there would be a Manji if Hohner had been on a path of continuous improvement?
Last Edited by STME58 on May 24, 2014 11:29 AM
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Frank
4353 posts
May 24, 2014
11:32 AM
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Wasn't the Crossover made to compete with the customize rs? I realize that the BIGDOG companies are ultimately taking business away, but Hohner was hoping the Crossover would be custom enough to steer money more towards them then customizers no? :)
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Goldbrick
447 posts
May 24, 2014
11:33 AM
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I think the average player just wants a reasonably responsive harp.
I know I would never have learned to play if I hadnt tried a Lee Oskar after a several bad Hohners.
I dont want or need a custom harp anymore than a custom drum or a custom guitar or a custom car for that matter. I can use tools and modify any of these to meet my playing needs.
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KingoBad
1470 posts
May 24, 2014
11:35 AM
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The customizes do not make harmonicas!
It is a secondary market that only compliments any harmonica company. They are not competition.
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Danny
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Frank
4354 posts
May 24, 2014
11:37 AM
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Would you support Hohners take over if it caused harp prices to drop by more then 50%....
I realize the competition of customizers are more amoungst themselves but when your in business isn't everyone competition? :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 24, 2014 11:39 AM
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KingoBad
1471 posts
May 24, 2014
11:48 AM
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No. Car part suppliers would certainly encourage more car sales. They would be cooperating with, and possible actively promoting the auto industry.
I'm absolutely sure that customizes feel the same way.
Hohner may be able to capture large parts of industry, but ultimately it will not end with lower prices. Only healthy real competition will keep the prices lower.
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Danny
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Frank
4356 posts
May 24, 2014
12:00 PM
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Can't Hohner compete against itself once it has obtained all the power, after-all it will have every means of production at its disposal, including brain power - giving it the freedom to morph and emerge into a Super Hero of sorts to all harmonica players in the world, including those who once hated them, but now seemingly love and adore them :) I recently saw "spiderman" so maybe my logic is skewed...
Last Edited by Frank on May 24, 2014 12:04 PM
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harmonicanick
2165 posts
May 24, 2014
12:24 PM
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hey Frank strange to hear an american proposing a European monopoly, but I think the global weight is towards the far east now and I predict more harmonicas from there
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Frank
4357 posts
May 24, 2014
12:33 PM
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Nick, that is an extremely courageous foretelling of things to come...I tend to sense that your prophesy may be more relevant then currently it's given credit to have. As far as my European brothers and sisters, aren't most of them already loud and proud Honkin Hohner endorsers :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 24, 2014 12:34 PM
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nacoran
7772 posts
May 24, 2014
12:55 PM
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I don't know if it's still the case, but Japan has a history of having fairly closed markets. I don't know if they'd let Hohner buy Suzuki.
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Nate
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dougharps
625 posts
May 24, 2014
1:10 PM
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No! We don't need a monopoly harmonica company!
IMHO
Any organization that totally dominates an endeavor will tend to stultify and become less responsive, and product quality will gradually decline. Customer base is taken for granted, so why bother with innovation and improvements?
Competition leads to innovation. If there were a monolithic harmonica manufacturer, the product and organizational responsiveness to customer needs would gradually decline.
The decline in OOB harmonica quality combined with the modifications needed for overbending created a need for customizers.
Hohner was in decline until Lee Oskar/Tombo started competing. I switched to LO for better quality and durability (I switched back when Hohners improved.) Huang started competing. And Suzuki. And Hering. And Seydel resumed and improved production.
Hohner finally stepped it up in response to the increasing competition. Special 20s improved and new lines of harps were developed to try to restore the Hohner market share. Techniques such as overbending became known to a wider base of players. New kinds of harmonicas were needed for a larger number of players.
The question becomes what is FAIR competition. When currencies and governments become involved, it gets complicated.
Overall, though, I see competition as a good thing. It can help stabilize prices, unless there is illegal collusion to fix prices.
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Doug S.
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JustFuya
187 posts
May 24, 2014
1:59 PM
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Competition is what inspired Hohner to up their game and create better OOTB harps.
My Theory: I think the nasty belch of inferior product happened during their transition from WWII era mechanical equipment to hydraulics and automation. There is less training required on newer machinery and the operator is further removed from the 'touch' that the old timer had with their machine and its output.
I think that eventually another company will step up with a flat and well-assembled reed plate if Hohner doesn't.
An excellent product will never put the excellent customizer out of business. At present, the customizer is doing a lot of extra work that should be done at the factory.
Edit: Grammar
Last Edited by JustFuya on May 24, 2014 5:11 PM
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boris_plotnikov
966 posts
May 24, 2014
3:12 PM
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No! We need competition. If we didn't get 1847 and Suzuki Manji you'll still keep waxing comb and replace nails with bolts.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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groyster1
2606 posts
May 24, 2014
4:12 PM
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hohner is still the leader and doing very well on its own.....but don't give them a monopoly..
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BronzeWailer
1283 posts
May 24, 2014
5:02 PM
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Frank you are quite the stirrer. (It's a good thing.)
Monopoly is not a good thing unless it's a "natural" one. Are we rushing out to buy Ladas?
I don't like the trend toward every-cheaper in the manufacturing sector because you lose on the quality side, IMHO. I would rather pay twice as much for something that last 10x as long rather than the throwaway crap we get.
When 3D printers become as cheap as regular printers the custom harp trade may get very interesting. I bet nacoran has some ideas...
BronzeWailer's YouTube
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harpwrench
865 posts
May 24, 2014
5:21 PM
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Sorry guys lets not rewrite history please. The Marine Band Deluxe was released in 2005 with a sealed comb and screws two years before the 1847. Manji came out about the same time as the Crossover.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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GMaj7
420 posts
May 24, 2014
5:52 PM
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I think you are flattering yourselves with some overrated belief in the margins on harmonicas and the size of the companies that make them. It is a very small industry with tiny profits. Using terms like buyout, monopoly, etc and applying them to harmonica companies is like Lucy selling stock in her lemonade stand.
Hohner & Suzuki have other product lines that are more profitable. The President of LO actually answers the phone and Seydel president actually answers emails from customers.
We aren't talking about large corporate entities here.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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STME58
838 posts
May 24, 2014
6:31 PM
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In looking at harps with an eye for how they are manufactured, is seems to me that the industry suffers from underecapitalization, as would be expected in an industry like @GMaj7 describes. In a large consumer product industry where product are selling for one to two hundred dollars per unit, and somewhere around a half million units per month of each product are sold,(as an example, in 2008 about 50 million printers were sold worldwide ) it would not be unusual to spend 20 million on tooling and have 20 engineers or more work for several months to bring a new product to market. Just think what a harp you could produce with a tooling budget of $20 Million and a staff of 20 engineers! If you could make a profit of $20 per harp you could pay off that investment in a year if you sold 100,000 harps a month. Does anyone know what the total market for professional quality harps is? I would guess it is a lot smaller that 100K per month.
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Gnarly
1011 posts
May 24, 2014
10:17 PM
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Hey, doesn't Hohner has a history of buying out the competition?
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slackwater
56 posts
May 25, 2014
3:50 AM
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I used to be a Hohner supporter. Now, I wouldn't really care if they fell of the edge of the world.
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arzajac
1375 posts
May 25, 2014
5:50 AM
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"And could an ace customizer build a professional harp using the parts and reeds from all manufacturers currently out there?"
A Hohner Affiliated Customizer is not allowed to sell Suzuki of Seydel harps. You can only sell Hohner.
Maybe the takeover has already begun?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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rockmonkeyguitars
89 posts
May 25, 2014
6:19 AM
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Everybody is different which means if you have a problem that 25 people try and solve you will get to the solution 25 different ways. You never know what was the best way until hindsight. If you only have 1 person solve a problem you don't know if they solved it in the best way or not.
The harmonica isn't perfect yet. There is no 1 model that does everything or is right for everyone. If we only have 1 company trying to solve the problems with the harmonica then we will never be able to know if they are doing it the best way or not. We need many companies trying to solve the many problems in many different way. Screw the business side of things, I'm still looking for the perfect instrument.
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jbone
1632 posts
May 25, 2014
6:38 AM
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Is that even a possibility? If that were to happen I'd have to rip out my soul and take up knitting.
How about this: one auto maker in the world, or one brand of toilet paper?
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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Kingley
3582 posts
May 25, 2014
7:02 AM
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"hey Frank strange to hear an american proposing a European monopoly, but I think the global weight is towards the far east now and I predict more harmonicas from there"
I suspect that you might find that already is the case. All those "Made in Germany" harmonicas are most likely simply assembled in Germany with Asian produced parts. That's pretty much the case with a lot of things theses days. All this really, truly Made in USA and Made in Britain stuff is pretty much gone these days. It's all just assembled in those places. It's an almost undeniable course that the Far East is becoming the economic power in the world and that China will soon be the only real superpower in the world. The days of America and Europe living high on the hog are pretty much well and truly numbered.
Last Edited by Kingley on May 25, 2014 7:03 AM
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2chops
250 posts
May 25, 2014
9:50 AM
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No. I love the SP20. But no. Competition keeps everyone honest and striving forward rather than sitting on ones laurals.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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florida-trader
485 posts
May 25, 2014
10:01 AM
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The question posed by the OP is, “Should Hohner buy out all the other harmonica businesses?” If you want my opinion then I say, “No”. However, if Hohner had both the resources and the desire to do so, there would be very little anyone could do to stop it. I agree with what has been said about competition being good. It forces businesses (people) to find ways to make their products a more attractive value proposition than the other guys’. Typically that boils down to quality, price and service.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is the popularity of the harmonica. My point of view may be a bit myopic because I have only been actively involved in the online harmonica world for about five years but it seems to me that the harmonica is becoming more popular. With the advent of such tools as YouTube, Facebook and a myriad of online forums such as MBH we have access to more great music than we can possibly listen to. With the amount of instructional information available, both about how to play and how to customize the harmonica, the collective knowledge base is rapidly expanding. Over-bending, half-valved harps and 30-reed harps like the SUB-30 have ushered in other styles of playing that help attract music lovers who in the past may have shied away from the harp due to perceived limitations. All of this creates more opportunities for people and businesses to step in and serve the needs of the market. Regardless of what happens I believe that it has never been a better time to be a harmonica enthusiast than today.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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nacoran
7774 posts
May 25, 2014
10:18 AM
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Tom, I'd expand on what your saying by taking a word out, "I believe that it has never been a better time to be a (harmonica) enthusiast than today."
The internet is wonderful for all sorts of hobbies, not just for sharing information but for preserving it. You need a certain critical mass for information to start jumping back and forth. It's like a fire... if it has enough material to burn, it burns, but if it is starved the embers die. The internet is like pouring a constant flow of gasoline on everything. :)
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Nate
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florida-trader
486 posts
May 25, 2014
10:40 AM
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Nate. Amen
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Frank
4359 posts
May 25, 2014
4:44 PM
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Aren't harmonicas really so similar that Hohner could erect one massive building that brought all the differences of each company's unique harp strategy's together under one roof...
Ultimately saving all the secret harmonica designs from being stolen by the Chinese, simply because it will be harder for them to hack Hohners computer system - since it will now be paramount that these patents stay securely secret to them and only them :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 25, 2014 4:54 PM
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Goldbrick
453 posts
May 25, 2014
5:50 PM
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My thoughts on Hohner taking over via Jimmy reed
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sonny3
178 posts
May 25, 2014
6:00 PM
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Just think we could get a Manji that played as good as it looked or a delta frost that comes to you in a timely fashion. ;-) ;-)
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Frank
4360 posts
May 26, 2014
8:23 AM
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I think that's why so many peoples subjective interpretations are so passionately stated, because of the preconceived action about this severe change which Hohner could possibly act on in the not so distant future if Murpys Law is indeed correct...
It's almost like the naysayers saying that the world is square...Is there a bigfoot, are there aliens, a lock nest monster - yes we now know that the world is round...But so what, the relevancy is not located in the details in this case concerning a monopolized power struggle!
So how silly can this power play actually be to those who can clearly and soberly imagine the future economic strategic move that will play it self out if even millenniums from now.
The future of the harmonica is not an imaginary one- it all will make sense when the take over begins...Hohner is destined to be the The only harmonica company to survive into the 22 century and beyond :)
Last Edited by Frank on May 26, 2014 8:28 AM
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nacoran
7775 posts
May 26, 2014
12:34 PM
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Okay, let me refocus this a bit- how about, "Should one of the established harmonica companies buy out the intellectual property rights to a certain now defunct American harmonica company?"
Of course, here is a good example of how our legal system can make things complicated, since there are still claims against assets...
On second thought, that's a whole different can of worms.
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Nate
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atty1chgo
934 posts
May 26, 2014
12:48 PM
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Thanks for restating the issue, nacoran. Shameless shilling for Hohner seems to be Frank's passion. :)
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dougharps
627 posts
May 26, 2014
2:53 PM
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Doug S.
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1847
1820 posts
May 26, 2014
3:06 PM
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at one time there was talk of hohner buying seydel.
thankfully it's not going to happen.
i prefer dealing with a family owned harmonica builder
rather than a chinese conglomerate.
however a a hohner crossover with stainless steel reeds
and 19 limit intonation, would be a dream come true.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Frank
4369 posts
May 27, 2014
3:52 AM
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Universes reside within other universes, were galaxy's preside yet remain vulnerable to greater entities...
With that thought and with human knowledge doubling every 12 months something has got to give, in these on-going Harp manufacturing wars.
Hohner is pouring beer in the chili of its competitors so to speak and they don't even know it. "It's to late brother" as the Great Little Walter sang...
Will there be a pretty ending to all this righteous desire to rule as the mighty behemoth, where only one name reigns supreme on top the cover plate of the harmonica.
Lets hope and pray, this all goes smoothly and the smaller/weaker companies, peacefully give into the inevitable to come; freely bowing to and faithfully serving the Master of harmonica building :)
Thy kingdom come...
Last Edited by Frank on May 27, 2014 4:02 AM
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scojo
479 posts
May 27, 2014
8:46 AM
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Don't get the point of this post at all. From this and other posts, it seems you have been deluded into thinking that Hohner is the only company that makes good harmonicas. How ludicrous.
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scojo
480 posts
May 27, 2014
8:47 AM
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Sooner or later Frank will be recognized for the troll that he is.
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Frank
4373 posts
May 27, 2014
9:12 AM
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Someone needs a hug :)
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Sherwin
161 posts
May 27, 2014
9:16 AM
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Scojo, I'd say more like good natured shit disturber.......
Wadooeyenoe
Michael
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Frank
4374 posts
May 27, 2014
9:20 AM
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Last Edited by Frank on May 27, 2014 10:47 AM
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Sherwin
162 posts
May 27, 2014
11:04 AM
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The group hug......well, I'm gonna sit out for that one
Michael
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Frank
4382 posts
May 27, 2014
7:15 PM
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