MindTheGap
441 posts
May 08, 2014
2:57 AM
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My group are all agreed that we want to keep our practice volume down for all the good reasons. That's the easy bit, but we still find the volume creeps up and up. I guess coz everyone with an amp can turn theirs up, but they can't turn everyone else down with great big fader.
Any practical tips? Any impractical tips?
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mtg
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SuperBee
1966 posts
May 08, 2014
3:36 AM
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Get earplugs for the drummer. Wait...that will probably have the wrong effect...
I have tried in vain for several years to get volume down. Most effective so far was to hook up with a double bass. When the double bass wasn't available, volume went back up immediately. I knew it was gonna be trouble when I saw the earplugs...
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MindTheGap
442 posts
May 08, 2014
3:49 AM
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Superbee :-) Well, as you mention the double bass, I've been captivated by these semi-acc vids of Ben Bouman playing with The Marble Tones. I guess they might have set their volume around the unamplified bass? We don't have a double bass, but do have unamplified piano, so I thought we could use that to set the level.
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mtg
Last Edited by MindTheGap on May 08, 2014 3:51 AM
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SuperBee
1967 posts
May 08, 2014
4:32 AM
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i think thats one way, to have a "key" instrument which has limited volume potential. muffling the kit might work too. theyll soon quieten down if they cant hear the drums...you'd hope...
i kind of manage to control it now because i'm the front so if i'm lost in the mix everyone recognises it isnt working. but i'm still working on getting the band to set the default level at a point which enables individual instruments to stand out at appropriate times by lifting the level...or by everyone else dropping the level...
theres another angle...bass solos...with the acoustic bass already maxed out everyone has to back off so it can stand out in a solo...i encouraged some bass solos.
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clyde
366 posts
May 08, 2014
6:10 AM
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Acoustic guitars
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The Iceman
1639 posts
May 08, 2014
6:11 AM
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Drummer will usually set the stage volume. Brushes rather than sticks are nice.
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The Iceman
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jawbone
538 posts
May 08, 2014
7:08 AM
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To be honest, about 3 years ago, I gave up and packed in the band. Volume was always a huge issue for me and everyone that came into the band knew that from sentence "1" - but I do feel sort of bad that it was the guitar that finally put me over the edge. And it wasn't so much volume as "harshness" of sound. I don't know enough about amps, peddles etc.so I couldn't instruct him well enough and he just couldn't find a decent "sound" and all I could do was say "Turn it down a little" - things got pissy and we decided it wasn't worth the trouble.
I applaude Blue Rodeo as they are dealing with this fairly successfully.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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rogonzab
553 posts
May 08, 2014
7:39 AM
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Talk to your bandmates, tell them to get small amps for practice. 5w to 10w max. Is too easy to play loud whit a 100w Marshall.
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Jim Rumbaugh
989 posts
May 08, 2014
10:02 AM
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Everyone that uses an amplifier should have their speaker pointed at their head.
I am 90% sure that will fix it.
Put those amps on chairs have them sit in front of the speaker.
If they will not sit, then tilt, stack , do what ever, to put that speaker as close as possible to their head.
The classic amp on the floor with a guy standing next to it is the problem. They really can't hear what they are doing until the sound bounces off the wall and comes back to them. So they crank it until they hear.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
Last Edited by Jim Rumbaugh on May 08, 2014 10:04 AM
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barbequebob
2544 posts
May 08, 2014
11:27 AM
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Drummers can be a problem, especially if they come from rock background, especially a metal rock background because of volume and often times the inability of a number of them to use dynamics.
Electric bass players can often be worse because with electric bass, they actually can't hear themselves until they're about 20 feet away from the rig because it takes so long for the sound to come out, which is why bass amps are always as a rule, more powerful and the speakers tend to be larger because those notes do need more power.
I generally gig with a stand up bass and almost never have those problems and most of them are far better with dynamics.
As far as ear plugs goes, that actually can be more of a problem if they're wearing them. Why? Unless they are customized for the individual, they have a tendency to take off far too many decibels across the board wheras custom ones have certain frequencies taken down (like the bass register, which actually does the MOST damage to ones hearing far more than the treble of guitars do). An electric bass player I once had got one of those off the shelf ones that took some 29 decibels across the board, which makes sense if you're playing a gig in a huge stadium, but everywhere else, that's far too much, and so he actually wound up playing much louder and unless the stage was large enough in area where he could stand 20 feet away from the amp and clearly hear himself, most of the time, he wound up actually playing even louder.
Whenever electric bass players tend to use solid state amps, when they're playing at a low volume, they're fine, but the minute they start to get louder, those amps tend to distort the odd numbered harmonic overtones and sound harsh and from too many years of having one to my left on the bandstand, with the constant pounding of that, I wound up having a bit of hearing loss from my left ear.
To be brutally honest, you are gonna have to be the ultimate alpha male a**hole at some point and not be passive or wimpy about it and you're gonna have SEIZE control of the situation and take NOBODY'S crap about it and just put your foot down the minute it starts happening even if you have to wind up bruising a few egos in the process or it never stops.
Taking smaller amps certainly does help. You may want to do some tunes where different dynamics are involved but if you're the bandleader or the leader on some tunes doing this, it's gonna be YOUR job to give clear signals about it and make sure you're 100% in TOTAL command of what's going on 24/7 don't take any crap from any of them about it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on May 08, 2014 1:16 PM
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jpmcbride
49 posts
May 08, 2014
12:42 PM
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BBQbob is correct. Someone has to put their foot down and take a hard-line stance on the volume. I played bass in the Joe Lee Bush Blues Band and the rule was simple ... if you couldn't or wouldn't turn down to the level he wanted, you got fired. I never experienced a volume problem. He asked me to turn down the electric bass only once, and I did!
Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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MindTheGap
448 posts
May 19, 2014
11:59 PM
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I'm pleased to report that these ideas worked: using the acoustic piano volume as a touchstone, and better amp placement. No heads needed to be cracked.
Now I think understand why guitarists like it loud - when it's not ear-splitting you can hear the mistakes :-)
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mtg
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rockmonkeyguitars
85 posts
May 20, 2014
3:58 AM
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have somebody play acoustic guitar with an external mic. With a pickup or internal mic it's easy to get the volume pretty high before you get feedback but if somebody is using an external microphone on acoustic guitar then the volume has to stay down or you end up with a big mess of feedback or the acoustic simply gets lost.
On a side note, when my band does this I don't even have to plug my harp in. I can be heard over keyboard, bass, guitar, and light percussion.
Last Edited by rockmonkeyguitars on May 20, 2014 3:59 AM
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SuperBee
2004 posts
May 20, 2014
4:16 AM
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Good news!
And also for me. BBQ Bob hit my nail on it's head talking about metal drummers. That exactly with whom I've been working.
It was just as Bob said, loud and lacking dynamics. But, everyone is coming along.
Last practice we played a song and I thought really, I could hear where I wanted the volume to drop, so I just said, start steady, build a little through the instrumental break, as the guitar builds, then drop the level right down for when the vocal comes in. So I can deliver those opening lines real quiet...and build again as the vocal builds...
We tried it.
The bass player said 'that's really cool'.
That's all it took...and it was obvious how much better the song had become, now it was a story. Now I was able to sing it like a story rather than just belt it from beginning to end.
Oh joy!
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jbone
1623 posts
May 20, 2014
4:30 AM
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In the duo we sit just in front of our 12 watt amps. It's not difficult to keep volume reasonable. The drummer we just added plays a snare or a cajon, that's it. Standup bass would be way cool but there are few of them available locally.
There seems to have developed in the musical culture of the era- starting with big halls and electric instruments- an agenda to play huge rooms and outdoor venues, and to be ready to do this at any rate, even if 90% of one's gigs are at small bars. Horsepower has increased over the years. I myself bought a replica bassman some years ago and I have to admit it was a vindication to be asked if I could please turn down a few times! Imagine...
We're on the verge of going 3 or 4 piece electric depending on if we can get a bassist who meets our needs and is available. We do have a great minimal drummer. Minimal. He makes plenty of sound but he knows dynamics and is very well researched in using one snare to keep the beat and make it tasty.
I spent a lot of years getting drowned out by the stage volume- "necessary" to justify the 4x10 super reverb guitar amp and the 400 watt bass amp and the 15 drum and 10 cymbal kits I was trying to work with. I have to admit things are much calmer and cooler- and every bit as much fun if not more so- since I went much lower volume.
There is a sort of attraction to high powered music and it does have its place, but I can count the arena dates I've played very easily on one hand, and in truth, stage volume only needs to be where the members can hear each other, the big volume can be carried by a good p.a. and mics on everything.
You just have to assess your mates and either get them to go along, or find new mates. Ones with the same idea in mind, to preserve eardrums!
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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1847
1805 posts
May 20, 2014
7:57 AM
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show up to rehearsal with a 6-10 harp king
and a 4-10 harp king.. set a fender champ on top, tell them you are rod piazza
turn all the way up ... drown them out.
when they ask you to turn down, no problem
i'll just use the little champ
but if you guys turn up even one iota
i think they will get the idea.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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barbequebob
2563 posts
May 20, 2014
10:09 AM
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One thing I should mention that often times comes along with volume problems is that many times when you have players with such problems, dynamics are a problem, but along with it, from personal experience, often times there will be problems with the band's time because when the volume goes up, there can be a tendency to speed up and when the volume comes down, there's also a tendency to slow down and that's a problem you have to put your foot down on RIGHT AWAY!!!
If the volume problem continues to happen, if you play gigs like GB gigs or in venues that are also restaurants, and with the restaurant gigs, you have volume problems while people are eating, you can count on getting your butts fired from the gig.
I'm sure some of you may think that what does tempo problems have to do with volume problems, but from experience, I've seen things happen quite a lot, and most especially in a lot of open jams.
Many guitar players like volume for the sheer sense of power but they're one of those classic morons who speed up when it gets louder and slow down when the volume is down, I don't give a crap how nice a person he/she is, because I'm not thinking twice abut firing his sorry butt in a heartbeat.
Even as a harp player, you also have to be on the look out in case you yourself are also contributing to the problem as well.
If they're having volume problems, they certainly aren't acting like pros, but more like a bunch of jam hacks.
@SuperBee -- From experience with a drummer with a heavy metal background, I doubt that he was able to play behind the beat at all, and often times they're usually gonna wind up playing ahead of the beat, which totally destroys the entire blues groove and feel and I wouldn't doubt that that was the same with you.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1669 posts
May 20, 2014
10:24 AM
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re: big halls, outdoor concerts, etc...
Big stage volume seems to be the curse of the mid level talent.
The big talent I've seen (and I've had a habit of finagling back stage passes) was pretty amazingly low stage volume. One rock band (don't remember who now) had a lead guitarist with a wall of Marshall amps. However, most were "shells". He had a fender twin in one of those shells that was mic'd for the front of the house. When asked about it, he said people expected to see a wall of amps and they were just for show.
The front of the house PA should do all the heavy lifting.
Lots of those concerts were too loud out front, but back stage or in the side wings, I was amazed at how reasonable the stage volume was.
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The Iceman
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jawbone
539 posts
May 20, 2014
11:13 AM
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Let me add one more little bit - My band was probably mediocre at best and me even more mediocre than that ....but....I was always after that "old time blues sound" and part of that was lower volumes...but ... in the bars when you take a break and they turn on the "House system" and it almost rips your ears off...then...you come back with your band at a reasonable level, by comparison, it sounds like you haven't turned on your equipment and people look at you with that "what's wrong" expression. It is hard to fight the masses.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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Leatherlips
256 posts
May 20, 2014
6:31 PM
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Same problem for me as well. I've talked about it a number of times, but it comes back to bite me.
A couple of things in my band which I think might be contributors to this situation is the key the song is played in. Some keys will sound louder even though the volume has not been altered.
Another point which might also affect volume is if some or all band members ( this is applicable to mine ) use valve amps. Once they fully warm up they operate as intended and will become louder.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have a T-shirt which states I'm not :)
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nacoran
7751 posts
May 20, 2014
6:39 PM
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There is an app for that! Get a decibel meter app for you phone.
Or, you can secretly rewire the loudest amp so that the volume works normally up to 5 but then starts going backwards! :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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KingoBad
1465 posts
May 20, 2014
6:43 PM
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We took away our drummers kick drum and replaced it with a cajon with a pedal. It mics up nicely and we can keep it low. He also has an almost piccolo snare, and he has to use brushes.
Our piano player is the only one not on the pa (he prefers a 4x12 that he sits on. We are very careful about his levels, as he can overtake us pretty quickly and muddy stuff up.
I always reiterate the ideas about keeping it tight and being able to listen and react to each other.
I do have to say that even trying pretty hard, our levels still seem to go up in the second set.
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Danny
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MindTheGap
451 posts
May 21, 2014
4:21 AM
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barbequebob - Thanks for the tip about tempo and volume, I'll keep an ear out for that.
Certainly playing at lower volumes has uncovered other things, e.g. just how much the guitarists have to turn up/down between rhythm and lead work. And how softly everyone might have to play to get some real dynamic contrast in there.
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mtg
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