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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Acoustic - cupped or not?
Acoustic - cupped or not?
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HarpNinja
3862 posts
Apr 29, 2014
7:05 AM
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Does this sound like he's holding a mic or playing with the mic on a stand of sorts?
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Mike
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ridge
501 posts
Apr 29, 2014
7:48 AM
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I thought Popper pretty much always holds a mic. Just sounds like he played it clean with some echo thrown on it. There's nothing on here that I hear that would suggest he's cupping the harp away from a mic.
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Ridge's YouTube
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dougharps
602 posts
Apr 29, 2014
9:13 AM
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As ridge indicated there is no clear evidence of hand effects, though you cannot rule out that he played to a studio mic without using hand effects.
Often I can tell if someone is cupping a mic due to proximity effect affecting the sound of the lows. I don't hear that here. Sometimes there is a compressed sound due to tight cupping, and I don't hear that either. I don't hear breath sounds that are often part of cupped mic playing.
I would say either a handheld mic without proximity effect and/or very loosely cupped, or a studio mic on a stand played without using hand effects.
Which doesn't really answer the question in the OP...
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Apr 29, 2014 9:16 AM
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barbequebob
2533 posts
Apr 29, 2014
10:00 AM
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Use of the hands doesn't need to be dramatically in your face and can be used in a very subtle way and this is something most players never really learn to master whether playing acoustic or amplified harp. This sounds more like acoustic to me but the use of the hands for effects is so subtle that it's hard to really notice.
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HarpNinja
3863 posts
Apr 29, 2014
11:01 AM
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I don't think I'll ever know for sure, but the acoustic tone on that album is pretty killer. Most the time live, he plays cupped, but very loose. I generally do the same too.
However, I've seen studio clips of every possible arrangement - uncupped infront of three mics, holding a SM58, having a 58 and condenser, whatever...
Something I notice when I play with a 58 is the proximity effect even with a loose cup. I either hit the bottom notes that much harder, or the mic picks it up that much louder...a little compression helps, I guess.
There is hollow quality to the 58 I am not crazy about playing acoustically. Or, maybe it is more of a mid bump somewhere. It doesn't sound round on the bottom end...holes 4 and up sound great, though.
I've been noodling with a Fireball too, which sounds more open, but in some ways not as meaty.
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Mike
My Website
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barbequebob
2535 posts
Apr 29, 2014
11:22 AM
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The proximity effect is designed for vocalists and it really works well with male voices. On an SM57, you don't have that. One of the things to remember when going into a vocal mike is how you set it up and I've always had it set up on the hot side, mainly for vocals, so that I don't need to be eating the mike and can do more when backing away or when singing softly when I'm right on top, which helps for different tonal colors out of the voice and this same thing also applies for harmonica as well.
HarpNinja, you need to have more time working acoustically to get used to things and making the most out of it and too often when you only play amplified, you can easily forget how to adjust, if at all. When I gigged as a sideman with guys like Jimmy Rogers and Louisiana Red, there were tunes I din't play amplified harp on it at all and played straight up acoustic and it gave so much contrast to what was happening.
Consider setting that mike higher by a notch or two (or more to your liking) thru the PA and you won't need to be on top of it all the time and you can do a lot more things with both harp and vocals. However, when you're dealing with very rock oriented sound guys, it can be a problem when they have a tendency to have the stage monitors as well as the overall stage sound far too loud.
One thing also on the PA is to maybe reconfigure the tone controls, especially the midrange settings (if the PA has that) and sometimes if it's set either too low or too high, it can make things become problematic regardless of what mike you use.
The old Beyer dynamics that had ribbon cartridges can be an alternative, tho I've seen them used more often in studio gigs than with live gigs.
The recording sounds like it also has either plate or hall digital reverb that was added into the mix later after it was recorded (which is often very typical in many studio recordings).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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MP
3185 posts
Apr 29, 2014
11:26 AM
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I play w/ an extremely loose cup. It's a part of my sound. I only use a tight cup to mimic the stone 50s Chicago blues sound. I like to play acoustic a few inches away from my vocal mic. great for hand wahs ala SBWII.
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HarpNinja
3864 posts
Apr 29, 2014
12:03 PM
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Good info...I am always torn between open acoustic and cupped acoustic. This isn't for comfort so much as sound, and I can't make my mind up. Being that the group I am playing with now wants at least 25% of the songs to sound "amped", I've been holding a SM58.
Here's a good comparison:
I am using a Beta 57A straight to the board, JP is using his normal rig. You can hear he is using a tube amp that is compressing the tone so it is clean but thicker in the mids. His mic is a 58. I can't decide which tone I like more (player traits aside).
Cupped, the 57A might be too open and bright for the music I am playing now which is largely country and country rock. If I wasn't being asked to already use some gear for the overdriven tunes, I'd just use the Fireball to the PA for everything.
Since I have to bring stuff, I have more to day dream about, lol.
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Mike
My Website
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Last Edited by HarpNinja on Apr 29, 2014 12:04 PM
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barbequebob
2536 posts
Apr 29, 2014
12:45 PM
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If you're holding the mike in your hands with the harp the entire time, it's not really acoustic harp in the truest sense of the word, just amplified but totally clean and what JP is doing is still amplified harp because acoustic means no mike in your hands at all.
I still hear a certain amount of "dirt' with JP's thing, so it's still amplified harp in the very real sense and HarpNinja, what you're doing is essentially what James Cotton and Junior Wells have been doing for decades and what MP mentions is closer to what real acoustic harp is all about and having seen Sonny Terry several times, where he is seldom having the mike in his hands (the mike was ALWAYS on the stand) and so on occasion he closes into the mike and sometimes tight cupping it for a second for contrast, and that's the way most country harp players tend to do things (altho for a short time, Mickey Raphael actually gigged with Willie Nelson using a JT30 mike into a pre-CBS Super Reverb amp).
What you're doing on the video is still essentially amplified harp rather than true acoustic harp but it is much closer to what acoustic harp is supposed to be and that's with a truly clean sound, and I really don't think you've had a lot experience with that. Believe me, I love doing acoustic stuff just for the fact that I don't have to drag around tons of gear alone.
Most people's idea of amplified harp tone is just nothing but dirty tone but what you're doing here is more like the way many jazz guitarists today tend to do when their rig is a big hollow body guitar into one of the all time cleanest amps in the world, a Poyltone amp.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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HarpNinja
3865 posts
Apr 29, 2014
1:24 PM
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He's using the clean channel of a Bogner amp, so for sure amped up.
I've been playing some with an acoustic guitar player as just a duo, and for that, I play everything off the mic (and don't really sing). He sings way off the mic too, and it is a really cool, laid back, vibe. For that, I've used a Beta 57A, but the Fireball would probably sound better.
The nice thing about using a 58 for the trio is it responds to cupping when using a HarpBreak or similar pedal for dirty tones.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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HarpNinja
3866 posts
Apr 29, 2014
1:26 PM
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BBQ, I have to disagree with the comment that, "If you're holding the mike in your hands with the harp the entire time, it's not really acoustic harp in the truest sense of the word, just amplified but totally clean..."
Whether you hold a mic or play back from it, the mic is picking up a signal to go to the same PA, etc. So, technically, both are amped. If you are saying you have a less natural sound because the hands and potential proximity effect of the mic effect the overall output, than I agree.
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Mike
My Website
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HarpNinja
3867 posts
Apr 29, 2014
1:33 PM
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I forgot that I had a couple of vids up with the trio already. This is from my first time playing with them. I was subbing for the guitar player and had a couple hours of notice...hadn't ever heard this song before, lol:
I had my whole pedal board, but I think all I had running was the wireless and Tech 21 Blonde clean to the PA. I think. That sounds pretty good.
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Mike
My Website
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barbequebob
2537 posts
Apr 29, 2014
2:00 PM
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HarpNinja, I do stand by what I said, even tho that may seem odd to you, because that's acoustic at its absolute purest. You see acoustic guitars getting plugged into amps now, but the one thing those are set up for is so that no matter how loud the amp is turned up, it will never get distorted at all, which is a far cry from back when I started and much earlier than I started when if you got a classic old cheapo DeArmond pick up on an acoustic guitar that some of the old bluesmen I met before going fully electric did and plug it into an amp and just turning it past 3 on any amp, it will automatically get distorted in varying degrees.
Having the mike in your hands does put some serious limits on what you're gonna be able to do with your hands and so I guess you can say I'm very old school where if you're gonna play acoustic harp, the mike always stays on the stand no matter what so you can make the best use of your hands, whether its gonna be the blues of a Sonny Terry or SBW to the more classical sounds of a Larry Adler and with the mike out of the hands, you can do much more contrast with moving closer or away from the mike, especially if you set the mike hotter than you normally would.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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robbert
301 posts
Apr 29, 2014
2:25 PM
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Thanks for the discussion. Very helpful.
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Frank
4195 posts
Apr 30, 2014
4:33 AM
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Nice acoustic work here :)
Junior Wells live at Theresa's in Chicago holds it up against the mic in this video :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbYFn5RkX0U
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 30, 2014 4:39 AM
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HarpNinja
3868 posts
Apr 30, 2014
10:48 AM
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"HarpNinja, I do stand by what I said, even tho that may seem odd to you, because that's acoustic at its absolute purest."
If you want to split hairs, that isn't acoustic at its absolute purest. Purest would be in the room with no amplification. Next would be with a more studio-like setup, maybe even a single condenser mic, and on down the line.
Personally, I've done acoustic shows both holding the mic and leaving it on a stand...I prefer holding the mic as I run into less issues with feedback or being able to hear myself.
In addition, being that I have a vocal mic setup, I get the best of both worlds and can move between set ups. Also, I don't use many hand effects and prefer to control my vibrato and such from my mouth instead.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
Rock Harmonica Lessons
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JustFuya
111 posts
Apr 30, 2014
3:08 PM
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As soon as you apply electricity, you have moved beyond the acoustic realm. If you are going to amplify the acoustic experience, the guitar is not plugged in and your harp playing hands do not contact the mic.
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