laurent2015
667 posts
Apr 01, 2014
2:48 AM
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Yes. I realize that I'm unable to decipher a rhythm only by hearing the music.
If you tell me it's 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, I'll believe you.
Are there tricks to better understand what's going on?
And if yes, is it possible to embed sound samples?
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Komuso
299 posts
Apr 01, 2014
3:00 AM
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then there's always Google!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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laurent2015
668 posts
Apr 01, 2014
4:34 AM
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Thank you, this is funny!
But my question implies you have no pepper and no paper, only your ears. And you don't even know if you are in /4 or /8.
I suppose I have to recognize the downbeats first?
But how can I define or build the bars?
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The Iceman
1570 posts
Apr 01, 2014
7:48 AM
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ain't no shortcut to understanding music.
Start to examine music theory in all its glory.
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The Iceman
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paulbunyn
96 posts
Apr 01, 2014
8:51 AM
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Start here there are a bunch of these. www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y01jIorpeA
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Shaganappi
100 posts
Apr 01, 2014
9:04 AM
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Valid question. Although we all can likely figure out the rhythm given enough time, to actually do it skillfully and methodically is not something we are born with. There are many shortcuts that good players use but they are so ingrained via constant use that they forget they are shortcuts even.
One beef that I have with Standard Music notation is that it does not easily give immediate indication as to where the down beat is. I know I can analyse and get it and with a lot of use, it usually is obvious. I like a system that shows it explicitly. Even to the point of explicitly showing swing for some pieces, particularly when swing and straight rhythms are mixed.
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Greg Heumann
2665 posts
Apr 01, 2014
9:18 AM
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" Standard Music notation is that it does not easily give immediate indication as to where the down beat is." ??
You and I must have learned different standard music notation - which to me is the stuff with notes written on a staff. The vertical bars divide a line into measures, which have the number of beats indicated by the time signature. The down beat is the first beat to the right of each vertical bar.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Shaganappi
101 posts
Apr 01, 2014
9:43 AM
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Sure, if the music immediately starts on the first beat, it obviously is a downbeat per Standard Music Notation (SM). And even if the first downbeat is a quarter note rest, a 1/16th note rest or whatever, we can figure it out and often beamed notes has the first note as the downbeat but why not show every down beat in a more explicit manner?
What if the music is complex enough with ties, etc. or if the reference beat is much bigger than /4 ? By the time the last couple of beats are read, one can get confused within the bars as to what is down for other than straight-forward pieces. At least for someone not using SM frequently - which I understand is the case with most harp players. So to have dual SM-HarpTab notation is doable but IMO, not as nice as would be if each downbeat was better delineated.
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laurent2015
669 posts
Apr 01, 2014
10:08 AM
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I'd like to know this:
As for most of us, when you look at a YT vid listening to the music, can you tell rhythm is (e.g.) 3/4 or 5/8?
Seeing the drummer playing can maybe help, but if there isn't?
I know finding the key is more important, then just tell me finding the rhythm is not important, or...?
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timeistight
1543 posts
Apr 01, 2014
10:20 AM
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I can tell 3 from 5, sure.
Don't let the bottom number confuse you; that only tells you whether the beat falls on a quarter note or an eighth note. If you aren't trying to read something that doesn't matter much.
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WinslowYerxa
536 posts
Apr 01, 2014
10:33 AM
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When you're listening to a piece of music and trying to determine the meter:
Things 1 is to count the beats and feel where the first strong beat is.
Call the first strong beat 1.
Count until you hear the next strong beat. That's the next 1.
Keep counting for awhile, starting over on 1 for each strong beat.
If you're counting 1, 2, 1, 2, the tune is "in 2."
If you're counting 1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4, the tune is "in 4."
If you're counting 1,2,3 1,2,3, etc., it's "in 3."
Whether the beat itself is a quarter, eighth, or whatever, is secondary. First, count the pattern of strong pulses and the trailing weak ones.
If the tune is in 2, it could be 2/4 (beat is a quarter note). However, it might also be:
-- in "cut time" where the beat is a half note (correctly, but rarely, written as 2/2). This is true of a lot of fiddle tunes and popular music up until about the late 1950s (including rock&roll). Cut-time tunes often break out into 4/4 for the instrumental break, then subside back to the more relaxed 2/2 feel. (a 2/2/ bar and a 4/4 bar both contain 4 quarter notes.)
-- in 6/8, where the beat divides into 3 equal parts, each one being an 8th note. In this case, the beat is actually a dotted quarter. Jigs (think the Irish Washerwoman), 6/8 marches are among the tunes that use 6/8.
If the tune is in 3, it's likely to be 3/4. You may occasionally find fiddle tunes in 3/2 or even 9/8 (3 dotted quarter beats that each divide into 3 eighth notes, often referred to as a slip jig in Celtic music).
If the tune is in 4, it's usually 4/4. Even when the beat divides evenly into 3 (as with most blues shuffles) it's still written in 4/4 as opposed to the technically correct but cumbersome 12/8.
----------------------
Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
SPONSORED BY
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Apr 01, 2014 10:36 AM
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MindTheGap
416 posts
Apr 01, 2014
10:34 AM
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Is this any help?
2/4 = Tango
3/4 = Waltz e.g. Dexy's Midnight Runners, All in All
5/4 = Dave Brubeck, Take 5
7/4 = Pink Floyd, Money (mostly)
Nearly everything else Common Time: 4/4
But then there is 12/8, which is really just 4/4 with a triplet feel...
OK, the Stranglers, Golden Brown: 6/8 and 7/8...
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mtg
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timeistight
1544 posts
Apr 01, 2014
10:41 AM
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Here are some examples of different time signatures:
Mojo is in 2/2.
Manic Depression is in 3/4:
Juke is in 4/4:
Take Five is in 5/4:
I've Been Loving You Too Long to Stop Now is in 6/8:
These Arms of Mine is in 12/8, sometimes notated as 4/4:
Most of Money is in 7/8:
The guitar solo is in 4/4.
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 01, 2014 10:55 AM
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STME58
717 posts
Apr 01, 2014
12:15 PM
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I just had a lesson yesterday and the instructor had me clap rhythms from a percussion book called syncopation. Even though I have read music for a long time, this exercise was quite helpful. Sometimes it is the simple things that have been neglected for a while that are the most helpful to do.
Time signatures are fractions and work like fractions. If you are afraid of fractions you won't get time signatures.
Here is a sight that will five you some practice, you can set a time sig and a difficulty level than hear the rhythm.
Rhythm practice
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Greg Heumann
2667 posts
Apr 01, 2014
2:38 PM
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IF MOJO is 2/2 as stated above, then you would have to think of it as 16 bar blues. That raises even more questions because 16 bar blues has a conventional form and this is definitely NOT that form. I would argue Mojo is 4/4, 12-bar blues - easier to think about it that way. It DOES have a predominant 2-beat rhythm I think is referred to as "cut time"?
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Apr 01, 2014 2:40 PM
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Goldbrick
392 posts
Apr 01, 2014
3:08 PM
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Yep 2 beat is cut time. As a drummer I think Maybelline
when I am asked for cut time
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Shaganappi
103 posts
Apr 01, 2014
3:09 PM
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STME58 - your Rhythm practice link perfectly illustrates all what I have been saying per SM notation. Few harp players (even very good players that are not accustomed to SM) are sufficiently practiced to easily read rhythm at that level. If notes on the down beat were shown explicitly, at least they would stand a chance of managing same.
It would be great to have the skill to read SM that well but regrettably few players will get there. I vote for showing down beats explicitly for us lesser mortals.
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timeistight
1545 posts
Apr 01, 2014
4:25 PM
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'IF MOJO is 2/2 as stated above, then you would have to think of it as 16 bar blues. That raises even more questions because 16 bar blues has a conventional form and this is definitely NOT that form. I would argue Mojo is 4/4, 12-bar blues - easier to think about it that way. It DOES have a predominant 2-beat rhythm I think is referred to as "cut time"?'
Cut time and 2/2 are the same thing: Wikipedia
Anyway, Mojo is a 12-bar blues, not 16 or 8.
More Mojo music
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 01, 2014 4:26 PM
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STME58
718 posts
Apr 01, 2014
4:30 PM
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Shaganappi, Like Greg said, the downbeat is always there clearly marked just to the right of the measure bar. You are right though, that there is not always a note on the downbeat. The more complex the music the less likely things are to fall on the beat.
Did you see the level setting on the tool? Try setting it to level one then hitting create. It will give simpler rhythms to get you started. At the first level things are always on a beat, although sometimes there is no note on the down beat. Set it to 4/4 level 1, and count 1,2,3,4 out loud, in time every measure, clap only on the beats with notes. Before long you will be reading the rhythm, but more important than reading it, you will begin to feel it and as you switch time signatures you will learn what each feels like. You will feel the downbeat even if there is no note on the downbeat.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 01, 2014 4:33 PM
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Greg Heumann
2669 posts
Apr 01, 2014
5:01 PM
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Ahh, thanks "timeistight". I failed to think. I was thinking 2/4 instead of 2/2. Now that I see the sheet music I recall that 2/2 means 2 half notes per measure - which is, for all intents and purposes the same as 4/4, or "4 quarter notes" per measure. As you can see the measures (aka bars) actually DO contain 4 quarter note beats each - and Mojo is in fact mostly 1/4 notes and eighths. Which begs the question - why IS it written in 2/2?
Can someone (who knows, please don't guess) explain then what the significance of 2/2 is - how is it supposed to be "different" from 4/4?
P.S. - the link to sheet music you provided leads to http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/got-my-mojo-working-p315120.aspxand has a version of the same song in standard notation - 4/4.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Apr 01, 2014 5:08 PM
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laurent2015
670 posts
Apr 01, 2014
5:28 PM
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Could have that whole note in the 3d bar if 4/4?
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1847
1659 posts
Apr 01, 2014
5:32 PM
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cut time one and two and two and two and three and two and four and two
the wiki article explains it as pulse
if you counted 1234123412341234
it would seem really fast
if counted as one and two it grooves
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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STME58
719 posts
Apr 01, 2014
6:29 PM
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Cut time is mathematically equivalent to 4/4 and anything you can write in 2/2 (cut time) you can write notationally identical in 4/4. Frank posted this a while ago;
Hal shows a piano student the difference between cut and 4/4 in a very clear way. I really appreciate Frank for introducing me to the work of Hal Galper. I love the way he explains things.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 01, 2014 6:33 PM
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STME58
720 posts
Apr 01, 2014
10:38 PM
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Here is a fun piece in 7 my brass quintet plays. It is called a dance and as improbable as it seams, I can envision dancing to it.
Dance and Interludium
Sorry I don't have a recording. The basic rhythm is 1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,1,2
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 01, 2014 10:40 PM
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Michael Rubin
859 posts
Apr 02, 2014
7:21 AM
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Get real familiar with 4/4, then branch out. I suggest Louie Bellson's Modern Reading Text in 4/4. You may need to work with a teacher for a while to understand how to read it, but once most of my students understand it, they are able to decipher it on their own.
Remember, even pros have to spend countless hours working on their timing. I can point to two different years where I didn't practice harmonica at all, I just had a metronome and clapping for four to 8 hours a day. I was still playing harp for fun and profit!
After the first year of heavy metronome work, I noticed a marked difference in the level of bandleaders calling me to back them up.
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1847
1661 posts
Apr 02, 2014
8:26 AM
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4 to 8 hrs a day clapping your hands to a metronome
i applaud your tenacity
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Michael Rubin
860 posts
Apr 02, 2014
8:31 AM
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Yeah, but do you applaud my tenacity for four to eight hours a day?
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The Iceman
1573 posts
Apr 02, 2014
8:34 AM
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Time signature decoded...
It is shown as a fraction.
Number on top is how many quarter notes in each bar. The lower numeral indicates the note value that represents one beat (the beat unit).
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The Iceman
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STME58
721 posts
Apr 02, 2014
8:41 AM
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Never underestimate the power of focusing on the fundamentals. No matter how great your licks, if your timing is off it is missing a lot.
I have noticed a difference in just a few days of spending a few minutes a day clapping to a metronome. I would not have revisited this fundamental if my instructor had not pointed out that I needed work in this area.
Timing is one of the most critical and most difficult aspects of music. Ever notice how many students hate working with a metronome? Ever notice how those same students, even though they may be able to carry a decent tune solo, can't play well with other people and think it is the other peoples fault? I am not a teacher, but I see this in situations I have observed, This happens a lot kids, I'm sure it never happens with adult learners;)
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STME58
722 posts
Apr 02, 2014
8:44 AM
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Does he applaud your tenacity in triplets in time with the metronome?
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STME58
723 posts
Apr 02, 2014
8:57 AM
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I really appreciate the forum and being able to hear from people who have a great deal of knowledge, experience and recognition. Where else can a mere hobbyist like me, interact with some of the best in the business. Folks like Michael Rubin, Winslow Yerxa, Greg Heumann, The Iceman and others. Thank you all for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience!
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Shaganappi
107 posts
Apr 02, 2014
9:45 AM
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I agree STME58. Taking time to learn something well even though it may be painful for a while is good advice. Only by pushing through do we get good habits. I don't like doing it but I am spending more time clapping for a while.
Laurent 2015, your comments brought out some good stuff from some knowledgeable old hands.
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laurent2015
671 posts
Apr 02, 2014
1:47 PM
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Yeah, but unlike Michael Rubin, my efforts understanding rhythms made that now, I can swim breaststroke very well...
Furthermore and seriously: if the question of downbeat seems vital, does either the bass or the drums (I mean: the rhythm section) give you the clue?
I indeed thought that the drums always give you the downbeat, but it's a mistake: sometimes bass does it.
And if there's a singer, do you think he is always reliable as for finding the downbeat?
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WinslowYerxa
537 posts
Apr 02, 2014
2:18 PM
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You have to listen to the *macrorhythm.* The beat can come from anywhere, so listen to the total picture. In some styles of music the bass and drums will both give you the beat, while other styles make a point of bouncing off it.
Singers can't be relied on for the downbeat because vocal phrases often begin either a few notes before the downbeat and play a *pickup* - a few notes that lead up to the down beat, or (especially in blues) the vocal phrase starts after the downbeat has sounded.
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Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
SPONSORED BY
Lone Wolf Blues Company
Rockin’ Ron’s Music For Less
BlowsMeAway Productions
Slim’s Custom Cases
HarpGear
Seydel & Soehne
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WinslowYerxa
538 posts
Apr 02, 2014
2:24 PM
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Some vocal phrases are all pickup and *end* on the downbeat, like with Kris Kristoffersen's "Help Me Make it Through the Night":
1 2take the 3ribbon 4from your
1hair 2 3 4
1 2shake it 3loose and 4let it
1fall 2 3 4
1 2lay it 3soft a- 4against my
1skin 2 3 4
1 2like the 3shadows 4on the
1wall 2 3 4
1 etc.
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Winslow
Find out about the 2014 Spring Harmonica Collective!
SPONSORED BY
Lone Wolf Blues Company
Rockin’ Ron’s Music For Less
BlowsMeAway Productions
Slim’s Custom Cases
HarpGear
Seydel & Soehne
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STME58
724 posts
Apr 02, 2014
2:38 PM
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Imagine you are at Oktoberfest in Germany listening to the band playing a waltz in 3, Tuba goes OOM on 1, trombone goes Pah Pah on 2 and 3. The other instruments are playing a lilting melody that is always silent on 1.
The tuba player reaches over, grabs his stein, and takes a long drink of beer. No more OOM, just Pah Pah and the melody lines on the 2 and 3, the one beat is completely silent. Can you feel it even though is is silent? Do you think you could have determined where "one" is even if you never heard the tuba? Can you still tell it is in three?
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 02, 2014 2:39 PM
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laurent2015
672 posts
Apr 02, 2014
3:25 PM
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No. Due to the 1-liter glasses of beer, I can't even speak anymore.
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Apr 02, 2014 3:30 PM
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nacoran
7675 posts
Apr 02, 2014
5:28 PM
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All this talk about numbers of bars... we've got a tune where the harmonica is playing a 16 bar melody and everyone else is playing a 12 bar. I think we end up meeting at 48 and 96. It kind of happened organically, but until we realized what we had done it caused all sorts of problems because on stage we had a tendency to jam out a bit at the ends of tunes, and it was a pain to get the two themes to end together.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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STME58
725 posts
Apr 02, 2014
9:43 PM
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Nate, that sounds like a cool piece. And notice that as well as working with fractions in the time signature, you have used the least common multiple that my son was asking "how would you ever use this in real life?".
And they want to cut music programs from school!
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1847
1664 posts
Apr 02, 2014
10:10 PM
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Timing is one of the most critical and most difficult aspects of music.
Timing is one of the most critical, and the most simple aspect of music.
it's a bit like asking a girl out, that you really really like.
you can torment yourself endlessly
until you realize, all you have to say is...
we should hang out sometime.
if you tell your self something is hard to do
it is damn near impossible.
how many times have you told yourself
i just cant do this... "rubic's cube"
then one day the light comes on,
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
Last Edited by 1847 on Apr 02, 2014 10:10 PM
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laurent2015
673 posts
Apr 03, 2014
5:04 AM
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I think maybe you need a "maths mind", but that's not my case.
As by chance, many mathematicians, scientists and physicists are also good musicians.
Thank you all, for your answers: I have now raw material to decode.
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1847
1665 posts
Apr 03, 2014
6:20 AM
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you do not need a math mind
ask anyone here, i lost my mind a long time ago.
can you count to 4?
can you count to 12?
of coarse you can
every thing i know i learned in kindergarten.
the problem with a thread on the internet is lots
of people jump in and it gets confusing fast
"like it wasn't confusing enough already"
listen to the muddy waters track i posted
try to count it out
most blues music is in 4/4 time
the rest is in 2/4 or 12/8
oooh 12/8 time sounds difficult....t it is not
you still count to 4
one and a two and a three and a four
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Last Edited by 1847 on Apr 03, 2014 6:23 AM
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laurent2015
674 posts
Apr 03, 2014
7:01 AM
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Yeah I can count, but first of all, I appreciate your optimism!!!! I'm gonna do what you say, be sure.
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STME58
727 posts
Apr 03, 2014
8:07 AM
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Henry Ford said "Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!"
The math mind you need for music is not the in the form of being able to balance a complex chemical equation, but the math mind that is already allowing you to walk without tripping. If you can walk, your mind is already performing at the level you need to play music. I had never put it together before but perhaps it is good that early musical training for many who embark on it, is in marching band, step in time to the music and get the whole body involved and you learn quickly.
On a related side note, many marches are in 6/8 (Washington Post etc) but when you hear them it is just 1,2,1,2 step to the beat. Just as 1847 said.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 03, 2014 8:09 AM
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Greg Heumann
2670 posts
Apr 03, 2014
9:03 AM
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@Iceman: re "Number on top is how many quarter notes in each bar. The lower numeral indicates the note value that represents one beat (the beat unit)."
I think you have this wrong. 2/2 is a case in point. The lower number designates the length of the note being counted. It is NOT quarter notes in this case - it means 2 2-beat notes - which equates to 4 quarter notes - per measure.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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laurent2015
675 posts
Apr 03, 2014
9:25 AM
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STME58,
Don't confuse with "sense of rhythm": I think I feel it good, I very often comp the rhythms mechanically and generally follow the pace without problem.
OK. Now I want to be able to make same as the Winslow's analysis, but I think it's not for tomorrow.
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Apr 03, 2014 9:26 AM
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STME58
729 posts
Apr 03, 2014
4:02 PM
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Laurent, you are correct that some of what I was talking about refers to rhythm and you original question is really about meter. Winslow's example is a great one to show there is no clear cut rule for determining where the downbeat is.
Here is another example, Stephen Sondheim's "Send in the Clowns" that I got from Wikifonia before it was taken down. Because this in in lead sheet form, you can see where the words land on the beats more easily.
Clowns pdf
It is mostly in 12/8 with a couple bars of 9/8 the phases end on the down beat. The 12/8 is felt in 4 groups of 3. The form is such that you can feel it in a fast 3 or a slow 4. This could also be written in 4/4 using triplets.
I am trying to be helpful, but may be throwing out too much. If I am confusing, go back to what 1847 is saying, he is right on the mark!
PS
I find this piece works well in 12th position. The key signature is Eb but the higher As are natural so it works on a Bb harp. The A flats in the lower register are on a draw hole that can be bent down. The one Cb can be reached with a bend also.
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1847
1667 posts
Apr 03, 2014
4:56 PM
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i was hoping to use this song as a perfect example
but it is so perfect, it may not be the best example
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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laurent2015
679 posts
Apr 03, 2014
5:55 PM
|
STME58, I think that you just answered another question I had in my mind: rhythm is not pace, I mean that if the same piece can be written with different time signatures it's likely to play it with different paces. Re-writing a rock and turn it into a slow?
As for finding the downbeat on the pdf sheetmusic, Shaganappi would find here a reason to his beef.
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STME58
730 posts
Apr 03, 2014
9:04 PM
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Laurent2015 if you don't check your curiosity you are going to end up being able to read music! Of course being able to read music and make music are quite separate things you can do one without the other.
What you are calling pace is normally called tempo. You don't have to change the time signature to change the tempo. Most sheet music has a tempo marking. In the case of Send in the Clowns previously posted, it is the word Lento over the first bar. To change the tempo, change this word. Lento means slow in Italian. You can find the common tempo markings defined here;
Tempo Markings Defined
Most rock or blues charts would not have tempo marking in Italian. They would have a note above the staff with an equal sign and then a number. That number is the number of those notes per minute. Sometimes they have both. I just looked at my lead sheet for Hotel California and it says "Moderately slow (quarter note) = 76".
If you want to slow down the tempo of your rock song, just make the number smaller. If you have a metronome you will usually see both the Italian tempo names and the beats per minute numbers on the set points.
You can also write the same tempo several ways. Quarter note =50 is the same as half note =25.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 03, 2014 9:05 PM
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