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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Question about adding a Cabinet to a small amp...
Question about adding a Cabinet to a small amp...
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Suffering Heath
20 posts
Mar 24, 2014
6:31 AM
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Hello Blues People -
Can someone school me on this?
I had a line out installed into my '65 Kalamazoo Model Two that I use with a direct box to go to the soundboard. But this means trusting the sound-guy.
I want more power. What happens when you hook up an external cabinet? What is lost, and what is gained?
Can you please explain this slowly, using small words?
Thank you!
Heath
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www.reverbnation.com/thebluesprofessors
Last Edited by Suffering Heath on Mar 24, 2014 6:35 AM
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rogonzab
521 posts
Mar 24, 2014
6:41 AM
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If you add another speaker you will get more volume, maybe 3db if the speaker is good, but not enough.
If you have a line out, why dont you run the line out into another (big and clean) amp, and use it as a stage PA. The sound guy can mic the kalamazoo and use that in the mains.
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Suffering Heath
21 posts
Mar 24, 2014
6:48 AM
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Can you explain this to me? I don't understand.
Let's say, for argument's sake, I have the 'Zoo and a big clean Peavey keyboard amp.
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www.reverbnation.com/thebluesprofessors
Last Edited by Suffering Heath on Mar 24, 2014 6:54 AM
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rogonzab
522 posts
Mar 24, 2014
6:54 AM
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I will try.
If you add another speaker you will increase the moving air, and you will have a more complex sound, that is good. But you need power, and another speaker will only give you a +2db or +3db. To increase 3db in volume you need 2x power (or another good speaker), so if you add another speaker to your 5w amp, is going to be like a 10W version of the same amp. So, is not too much diference.
If you run your line up into a another amp on stage, you will using the second amp power to give you the volume, but the tone is coming from the kalamazoo.
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HawkeyeKane
2412 posts
Mar 24, 2014
7:23 AM
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rogonzab's right. For an extension cabinet to be effective, at least for harp, it'd need to be a bigger amp than a Kalamazoo or a Champ.
Heath, does your DI box have a 1/4" output on it as well as an XLR output? Here's what I've done in the past....I run my mic to my Zoo, line the Zoo into a Behringer DI100 active DI. I run the XLR output to the mixer, and the 1/4" output to my second amp. This way, the level of my sound through the board remains constant, but I can turn the second amp up or down as I need it to hear myself onstage.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
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Suffering Heath
24 posts
Mar 24, 2014
7:33 AM
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Oh, that's interesting, Hawk. So the "clean" amp is used merely as a monitor, right? What about the problem of your mic "hearing itself" through that amp?
I don't own a DI box, I usually borrow. But I would certainly buy one if I could solve this magic equasion of how to control my sound.
So you DO use a second amp? Which one?
As a harp player, it seems like it's really pushing it to carry two amps into a gig... But then, I'm not satisfied with what I currently use.
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www.reverbnation.com/thebluesprofessors
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LSC
617 posts
Mar 24, 2014
8:26 AM
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Although the Zoo into monitoring amp of some description is one viable idea, personally I very much prefer simplicity, ease of set up, and the use of the smallest number of cables and bits possible.
Seems to me your problem is simply not getting enough stage volume. So why not get a larger harp amp? There are many possibilities available both new and vintage. There are many threads on this forum describing the various attributes of several. The choice is dependent on budget, the size of the stages you play, and how loud the rest of the band is. And there is no reason not to keep the Zoo for situations where it is able to stand on it's own and avoid bringing more than you need.
If you have a loud band and/or play fairly large rooms there is the common or garden variety R.I. Bassman used by the majority of players. Though pretty good stock there are loads of threads describing the best tube swap to control feedback and it's not rocket surgery. You take out one and plug in another.
In the middle range you have Mission amps touted by Rick Davis, vintage Gibsons such as the GA-6, and certain other Fender models as well as some of the lesser known vintage brands.
In any event, you can carry in two amps, DI box and connecting cables, which btw also adds more things to break down, fiddle about getting a balance between the two amps or you can carry in one amp, plug in, turn on, and tell the sound guy to stick a mic in front of it. Depending on the room/amp size you often won't even need that.
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LSC
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LSC
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Suffering Heath
26 posts
Mar 24, 2014
8:28 AM
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Thanks for the follow-up, LSC. I'd love to get a larger amp, but I just can't drop $1000. Two toddlers, a teacher wife, and I'm an adjunct Literature/Film professor and a bi-monthly $100-a-gig bluesman.
I LOVE the tone I get from my 'zoo, but I do not love having to rely on a soundguy - who probably would rather be somewhere else - for the right mix. And yes, hearing myself would be nice...
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www.reverbnation.com/thebluesprofessors
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HawkeyeKane
2415 posts
Mar 24, 2014
3:08 PM
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Heath, to answer your question about the clean amp and its risk of feeding back, I usually set my Zoo volume at about 7, run one attenuator on the DI, and set the second amp at about 3 on its volume. The decisive factor will be the strength and characteristics of the second amp as to where you set its volume though.
EDIT: Here's an example with my Alamo Fury. The audio quality isn't the best because it was recorded on my phone. Gets kinda muddy. But you get the gist in terms of volume boost.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 24, 2014 3:17 PM
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Barley Nectar
331 posts
Mar 24, 2014
4:07 PM
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For the price and hassle involved, you may as well get a larger stand alone amp. No need to spend a grand. You can find a good used 30W tube amp for around 400 bucks. JMO as always. Good luck...BN
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Suffering Heath
27 posts
Mar 25, 2014
6:06 AM
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Hawk -
Cool, thank you. Love that horn-like tone you're getting on the back end of that video. Can you explain this to me:
"run one attenuator on the DI"
What's an attenuator?
So, just to clarify, I can run the Zoo to the DI Box, the DI box out to both the PA Mixer and another on-stage amp (which acts as a monitor I can control).
Could it be any old amp that acts as the monitor - I see you have a tube amp...
Barley! Can you give me a suggestion or two regarding a "good used 30W tube amp for around 400 bucks?
Thanks guys - very helpful...
Heath
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www.reverbnation.com/thebluesprofessors
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HawkeyeKane
2416 posts
Mar 25, 2014
7:21 AM
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Heath, an attenuator, in the case of a DI box, acts as a gain cut on the outgoing signal. On the Behringer DI I normally use, there are two 20dB cuts that you can activate for up to a total of a 40dB diminish. I like to run with one activated because it allows me to crank up the Zoo's volume to get the nice distortion I'm looking for, but it'll roll off the extra volume being pumped to the board and the second amp so it doesn't blow things out of proportion in the mix and onstage. In the video above, I was not...repeat NOT, running a DI between the two amps with attenuation. That's part of what lent to the muddyness of the sound you heard.
The second amp COULD indeed be "any old amp" as you put it...but choose wisely. Don't go using something like a Marshall stack. Something clean is probably a good idea. I use my Alamo in that configuration because honestly, it's the only other working amp I own. But the good news is, it's a hybrid bass amp, meaning it has a SS preamp and a tube output. Those tend to be gainy, but with the bass-specific tone stack, it winds up being fairly clean. You just have to run something my harp-friendly in front of it for it to produce good harp tone...ie-my Zoo, or a tube preamp like a LW Harp Attack or ART Tube MP. But to amplify the Zoo, you could use a keyboard amp, or even a powered loudspeaker with a Class-D amp in it.
To chime in on Barley's suggestion though...a 30W for $400 might not be the easiest thing in the world to come by, at least one that's good for harp in its stock form. Maybe a Peavey Classic 30 or Delta Blues 210? The Peavey ValveKing 112 is a 50W sleeper that can be harp friendly if you use it right. I think you might have better luck finding a used 15 or 20 watt amp in that price range. A Pro Junior might fit the bill.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Mar 25, 2014 2:04 PM
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Suffering Heath
31 posts
Mar 26, 2014
8:32 AM
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Hawk -
Would something like a 1x12 Cabinet work?
Like an Epiphone (see below)
Epiphone Valve Jr./Extension Cabinet, 1x12
http://allentown.craigslist.org/msg/4385865553.html
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http://www.reverbnation.com/thebluesprofessors
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HawkeyeKane
2422 posts
Mar 26, 2014
8:45 AM
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The EVJ 112 is just a speaker, and a 16 ohm at that. It still needs an amp to power it. Unfortunately, your Zoo's output is 8 ohms, which would result in an impedance mismatch, so you couldn't use it with that. If you got the EVJ head along with the speaker cab, then you could run the Zoo's line out into the EVJ and use both amps, sure. But that's only gonna get you another 5 watts. The 12" speaker would move some more air for you, but in the end, I imagine you'd still have trouble hearing yourself going this route.
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Hawkeye Kane - Hipbone Sam
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Barley Nectar
337 posts
Mar 26, 2014
6:13 PM
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Well, we have had this price vs power discussion several times here recently. I guess it depends on where you live. I'm north of Pittsburgh and things are pretty reasonable around here compared to many places. There are all kinds of deals if you are always on the lookout as I am. Flee mkts, yard sales, old musicians have amps they no longer use, pawn shops on occasion although those guys are pretty savy. Craigs list works well for me. One thing you must consider, used gear usually needs work. Old amps are more repair friendly. New gear is not as durable in many cases. It's all somewhat of a crap shoot. Getting proper effects and running straight into a PA is an option. That has shortcomings also. I am a tube amp hobby tech so I love big amps. That is my thing so you know where I'm coming from. I showed off a Fender Deluxe Reverb to a fellow long ago and said "this is my first amp" he promptly responded "and it won't be your last". Man was he right!!! Good luck...Goose
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