Philosofy
528 posts
Mar 19, 2014
8:53 PM
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The title pretty much says it all. Wouldn't it make more sense for "Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do" to be A B C D E F G A instead of C D E F G A B C? And how many times do beginners like me ask this question?
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STME58
685 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:14 PM
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That's a great question! I have no idea what the answer is but if I had to guess I would say that minor scales were common at the time letters were first used to name notes.
I look forward to seeing what someone knowledgeable on the topic has to say.
I wonder if the answer to that is related to why orchestras usually tune to A (whereas bands tune to Bb)
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Joe_L
2441 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:15 PM
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I would suggest taking a music 101 class down at the local community college or google the major scale.
In terms of notes on the C Major scale, the half steps occur between notes E and F AND B and C. If I remember correctly and my math is correct, when you go up the circle of fifths, you'll add one sharp, e.g.
G, A, B, C, D, E, F# and G.
On the piano keyboard, you'll add one black key for F#.
In the key of A:
A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A.
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Last Edited by Joe_L on Mar 19, 2014 9:16 PM
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SuperBee
1780 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:38 PM
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Yeah but I don't think that is the question Joe. I think philosofy is asking 'why' start with C. Why not A? Not 'how does music work', but 'how come it was decided to name the notes this way?'
I think. I don't know the answer. Was there a committee meeting of a church music society?
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dougharps
584 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:43 PM
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Here is one answer found via the wonders of Google:
Why the Key of C?
However, my answer is that the naming of keys was an arbitrary act by human beings that gradually was validated by popular usage.
The intervals of the Ionian major scale are set intervals, but where you choose to start "Do" is arbitrary and what pitches you are playing in in your scale is relative to the key of the instrument you are playing.
An ironic example is that if you play a Bb clarinet (a key whose name includes a flat), and the sheet music for a song is written in the key of C, you would play in Bb without sharping or flatting any note on the instrument, unless there was an incidental note somewhere in the song.
From the point of reference of someone playing a C instrument you would seem to be playing a song with 2 flats (Bb and Eb). To play along with you that person with a C instrument would need to play music written in the key of Bb, and play those two flats.
If the Bb clarinet played from sheet music with two sharps, written as key of "D" with an F and C sharp, they would be playing in the key of C from the point of reference of the C instrument. This can all be seen on the circle of fifths.
So the answer is, that was how it was made up by people, like everything else we represent with a word or symbol.
The map is not the territory, the note name is not the actual note sound, and a rose is a rose by any other name.
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Doug S.
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Philosofy
529 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:44 PM
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You are correct, SuperBee. Maybe I'm just a little OCD, but that bothers me.
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STME58
686 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:54 PM
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From the same site that dougharps found is something that supports my guess.
Starting with minor
excerpt from above link:
"That's a roundabout way of getting to where I can say that if you began a major scale pattern on the note A, you'd have to put in sharps because the original scale on A was not like our modern major, but corresponded to modern minor. Wasn't planned that way; it just grew naturally."
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 20, 2014 12:03 AM
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STME58
687 posts
Mar 19, 2014
10:07 PM
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As what I find to be an interesting historical side-note on dougharps comments on Bb instrument music. Writing the fundamental note of the instrument as C started with horns. They originally had no valves so you had to have a different horn, for each key (sound familiar). The trombone (sackbut) is typically a Bb instrument but it was the first horn that could play all the notes so it was scored in C because trombone players did not have to change horns to change keys.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 19, 2014 10:08 PM
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slackwater
29 posts
Mar 19, 2014
10:31 PM
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I seem to remember hearing that Middle C is at about the middle of the range of the (normal) male singing voice. Maybe that's where it comes from?
It seems to me though, that the deeper you dig into music theory the more arbitrary the whole thing looks.
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Chris L
41 posts
Mar 19, 2014
10:49 PM
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The naming of notes and scales using the first 7 letters of the alphabet is pretty arbitrary. The 7 tone scale goes back to the Greeks who did some amazing theorizing about music, but named their scales after different ethnic regions. If there is an answer to why C has no sharps or flats instead of A, I don't know it, but I suspect it was a fluke of the evolution of music theory.
Or if you prefer a religious theory rather than evolutionary: God invented music and then gave people the job of naming the bits and pieces of it. No wonder A ended up with sharps and flats! Did you catch the thread on butting heads and insults?
Interestingly enough, ABCDEFG is a perfectly good scale in the key of A. Thing is, that scale has a tonal quality long ago (definitely by the late renaissance) identified as second in popularity to CDEFGAB. ABCDEFG we call minor, and CDEFGAB we call major. So maybe the church committee that started naming notes was into sweet slightly melancholy tunes...like Gregorian chants? Just guessing now.
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Joe_L
2442 posts
Mar 19, 2014
11:04 PM
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If that's the question, accept it, move on and play the instrument.
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WinslowYerxa
521 posts
Mar 20, 2014
8:39 AM
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The major scale is known to have existed since at least Babylonian times, though they must have had other names for the notes.
Sometime in the middle ages someone asked the same question as Philosofy and tried to re-name the notes to start the major scale on A instead of C, but that system had already been in place for several centuries. (Some of his descendants are harmonica players and from time to time their genetic heritage flares up and they go on campaigns of trying to get us to change the names of things like overblows and Richter tuning.)
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Winslow
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The Iceman
1545 posts
Mar 20, 2014
9:06 AM
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For questions such as this "Why C and not A"...
A Jewish Joke:
Jewish mother bought her son two shirts for his birthday. The son opened his gift and said "Thanks, Mom, for the beautiful shirts". The Jewish mother said "Why don't you go try them on to see how they look?" So, the son goes upstairs, puts on a shirt and comes down to show his mother. "It's beautiful, Mom. What do you think?" To which the Jewish mother replied, "The other shirt you didn't like?"
Point being that one has to start somewhere with one choice from many.
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The Iceman
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WinslowYerxa
524 posts
Mar 20, 2014
9:28 AM
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Reminds me of another joke:
A woman and her small child are at the beach when a sudden wave washes him out to sea.
The frantic mother passionately implores God to send her precious child back to her, and promises lifelong devotion if He will only grant her this mercy.
Suddenly the wave comes back and deposits her son safely on the shore.
The mother takes one look at him, looks up to the sky and exclaims, "He had a HAT!"
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Winslow
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 21, 2014 9:10 AM
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Shaganappi
99 posts
Mar 20, 2014
9:38 AM
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STME and Winslow's explanation sounds best. If I understand him right, some "Minor guy" in history got to pick A first even though the Major scale was maybe even developed first. Good question Philosfy. Doug - that link just makes my head hurt. Too much latin.
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STME58
688 posts
Mar 20, 2014
10:02 AM
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Shaganappi,
I love the pun on "minor guy in history".
Which reminds me of a joke I heard Tommy Emmanuel tell at a concert.
Why do coal workers play guitars?
Because if you try to lower a piano down a mine shaft, all you get is Ab minor!
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AC
49 posts
Mar 20, 2014
10:35 AM
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Another interesting note:
A B C D E F G makes sense in English, but I grew up in a country where B actually means B flat and H is used instead of the English notation B. For these countries C D E F G A H makes as much sense as A H C D E F G - it really has nothing to do with the alphabet.
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WinslowYerxa
527 posts
Mar 20, 2014
11:57 AM
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And in France they use fixed Do, i.e., C = Do, D = Re, E = Mi, etc.
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Winslow
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Mar 20, 2014 12:11 PM
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nacoran
7632 posts
Mar 20, 2014
4:44 PM
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I've done a little fixed Do stuff. There is a form of American folk singing (folk in the more traditional sense, not the Bob Dylan type) called shape note that uses it. The note heads are actually different shapes to make it easier to read. I've thought it might, with a little adaptation, make a good form of sheet music for harp players.
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puri
146 posts
Mar 20, 2014
7:45 PM
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Without googling, here's my little knowledge, the do re mi system is commonly used by Latin countries because the names do re mi.... are abbreviations of a rather long Latin names. I'm sure you could google this. The A B C system is commonly used by the Saxons, Germans, English, I don't know why but it seems to be that way. In Germany they changed B to H and Bb to B to honor Bach. The combination of notes that he commonly used (or you could just say one of his most famous lick) is Bb A C B and after you change the names you get B A C H.
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WinslowYerxa
528 posts
Mar 21, 2014
9:10 AM
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I don't think B-A-C-H was created to honor JS Bach; it already existed and he played around with it. He was relatively unknown in his own time. His sons were much more famous (and made a lot more money) and transmitted his work to their students, including Mozart.
Why is G the lowest key of harmonica? This has more to do with range than with putting the alphabet in order. G probably seemed like a reasonable lower limit to range to somebody making decisions about a century ago.
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Winslow
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