Martin
638 posts
Mar 18, 2014
6:27 PM
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This is instructive. The lady with the mouth organ is sharing the stage with JJ Milteau, one of the world´s greatest players. She is clearly at an earlier phase in her musical development -- yet it´s her we´re hearing all the time. All The Time.
She takes the first solo, then goes on wailing (4D, you guessed it) through the next one, and shows no sign of letting JJ come to life when she jumps on solo no 3.
Then she gracefully concedes a few bars. JJM handles this with composure - but there´s a lesson for beginners here: this is not the way to do it. (Even non-beginners can reflect upon these matters but this is mainly an effect of a fairly recent contact with the instrument.)
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eharp
2136 posts
Mar 18, 2014
7:57 PM
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Doesn't JJ have a little obligation, if he wants to wail, of getting into someone's sight line?
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KingoBad
1447 posts
Mar 18, 2014
8:00 PM
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Sure, when he walks up and stands right next to her and stares, I thought that was pretty obvious...
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Danny
Last Edited by KingoBad on Mar 19, 2014 5:21 AM
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Jehosaphat
718 posts
Mar 18, 2014
8:58 PM
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I saw Kitty, Daisy and Lewis play when they toured NZ.
Great concert but have to say that the harp was well,adequate.
But only a harp nerd woulda thought that,the audience loved them.
They are a great act.
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jpmcbride
39 posts
Mar 18, 2014
9:36 PM
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They do a great version of "Going Up The Country". Ya, the harp in this is not technical at all, its a lot of 4 draw with some sliding down to the 2, but its catchy and fits the song. It definitely adds to the song, and I like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcywnNixrQw
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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Rubes
819 posts
Mar 19, 2014
3:31 AM
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They do look like a lotta fun...but it did sound like she killed a cat or something! :~}
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
Benny and Rubes at Reverbnation
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didjcripey
728 posts
Mar 19, 2014
4:05 AM
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My respect for JJ has increased.
He demonstrates patience, humility and a good natured attempt to school her (which it seems was wasted).
A gentleman and a scholar.
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Lucky Lester
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Kaining
29 posts
Mar 19, 2014
4:52 AM
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Oh god, don't know the girl and i don't want to know if that's all she can do under those circonstances but doing the same thing over and over again and over one of the best harp players there at the time...she shows guts.
That's pretty much it. If you don't watch but just listen anyway, to me, she is ruining the song.
She can probably do some other stuff on the harp ( i hope she can or else what the hell is she doing here ?) but no, no, no, she's just doing some first hour harmonica licks.
BTW, look at the guitarist in the middle, it's hillarious 'cause he seems to get what's happening and isn't showing great confidence in being where he is half the time.
Also, that smirk on Galvin is amazing.
@Kingobad: they aren't fronting, both bands are sharing the stage. The annoncer makes it very clear.
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KingoBad
1450 posts
Mar 19, 2014
4:56 AM
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Who is singing the song?
Look, it is one of their regular set pieces. They left no room for JJ, which was rude. For a collaboration, the harp player never looked up - a horrible thing to do if you would like to communicate on stage. JJ was watching politely for his spot and space, and she finally remembered he was there, but still barely looked out of the corner of her eye.
If JJ had been fronting the song, he would have more control over what happened. As he wasn't, he did a great job with what he had and showed plenty of class and professionalism you'd expect from such a great musician.
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Danny
Last Edited by KingoBad on Mar 19, 2014 5:12 AM
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MindTheGap
353 posts
Mar 19, 2014
5:51 AM
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I agree that the above advice is good advice for beginners like me. Space, eye-contact and respect, all that. Very good advice.
But isn't the interpretation of this clip the most negative one? Kitty, Daisy and Lewis are an established act, and a bit of a 'thing'. Wouldn't a more positive interpretation be along the lines of: those crazy young whippersnappers stealing the stage from the old guard, with the clear endorsement of the old guard, and everyone enjoying it?
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MTG
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Martin
639 posts
Mar 19, 2014
6:31 AM
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I said nothing about the general musical value of it. (I have views on that but leave them.)
My point is only that some kind of interesting interaction between harmonicas could have been entirely possible, had the lady in question shown a little more attention to the rest of the crowd, including a world class harmonicist.
Whether they are an "established act" or not is immaterial: she plays with a beginners approach, and is not very considerate.
But JJM is.
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MindTheGap
354 posts
Mar 19, 2014
7:39 AM
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Well, I agree with you really, I'd rather hear JJM play than Kitty, or some interplay between them would have been good. And as you say, it's a case-study in seemingly not interacting very well on stage.
But I like to imagine a conversation during rehearsal where Kitty says to JJM, 'Please, please play the lead harp on our song, it would be such an honour.' And JJM says, 'No, Kitty - I'll comp, I want to see you close your eyes and take the lead out front.' Is it too much to imagine a world where that conversation might take place?
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MTG
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arzajac
1314 posts
Mar 19, 2014
12:44 PM
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I think people are focusing on the negative interpretations of what happened. That these two artists (they are three, actually, the two ladies and the guitarist) dissed JJ. "Glass-half empty" I guess.
That not what I see. It was their moment and JJ Milteau was there to share the stage.
I heard a well-known and amazingly talented Québecois singer tell the story of how she was teaching her son how to sing with her. He had trouble figuring out when to come in, how loud to be, etc... She told him "accote-moi" which pretty much means lean up and support me.
To me, that's what J.J. Milteau is doing here. Perfectly. He doesn't take up too much space and when he does go for more space, he carefully controls his acceleration to not take the spotlight away from the star-of-the-hour. Brilliant!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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kudzurunner
4619 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:03 PM
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. Of all who have posted here, I think only arzajac has gotten this right.
The danger of kibbitzing a youtube video is that you have absolutely no idea 1) what songs preceded this one; 2) how much or little JJM played on those songs; 3) what JJ's relationship with the harp-woman, Kitty, is; and 4) what JJM and Kitty said to each other about who was taking the lead on the harp on the song in question.
Without knowing those four things, there is absolutely no basis on which accurately to judge what is happening here.
For all we know, JJM and Kitty had agreed that she was going to take the fills, take most of the leads, and he was going to come in later on. It's entirely possible that the song before this one was a JJM blowout and that he was resting while she wailed on.
It's even possible that Kitty is one of JJM's students and that he very much WANTED her to take the lead here while he basked in the glow of her blowing, so to speak. (Mixed metaphor alert!)
Y'all are being way too harsh here, and with an entirely inadequate evidentiary basis.
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SteamrollinStan
134 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:14 PM
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Ha, I purchased the cd ages ago, I reckon she wails away pretty darn good, it all fits in, JJ is just there in this number to fill in etc, he's the expert in his own right, KD&L, have thier own music, and they seem popular.
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MindTheGap
356 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:22 PM
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But I think Martin's point was more about it doesn't look like a good interaction on stage, e.g. not making eye contact and so on. And so generally it would be good for beginners to avoid that. I take that as well-intentioned advice.
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MTG
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Mar 19, 2014 1:22 PM
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harmonicanick
2145 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:22 PM
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Unless lead, harmonica is there to ENHANCE, JJ has been doing that for singers for years
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nacoran
7628 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:46 PM
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After Humbleharper, I feel self-conscious agreeing with Adam!!!
I was more focussed on what J.J. was doing with what she gave him. I've seen lots of times where two harp players trade licks, but it's a lot rarer to see two harps playing complementary parts. It's actually a hard thing to do, to play a secondary role in a song, so doesn't it figure, it's the guy with the great chops that does it?
And actually, although she plays most of the song, she does give him a little bit of room at the end, and he uses the space she gives him well, and I like the back and forth. Yeah, they could have done that the whole song, but that might have turned it from a song with nice harmonica into some harmonica with a song attached.
And I'll end it at that... I see a doe and her to babies outside and I'm going to grab my camera.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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Martin
641 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:46 PM
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@kudzurunner: Well, we can all hear what she sounds like, can´t we. And that she plays a whole effing lot.
Regardless if that was agreed upon beforehand, it was a BAD decision, and still falls under the heading "How not to do it".
It´s not that I think this lady should be guillotined or so for this overstepping of aestetically well-founded boundaries (in fact she might even get a kiss), so let´s call this a "musical misdemeanor".
I still think it might have some educational value for beginners: "See, look, listen: how not ..." etc. It´s not a question of bringing up rage or hate; just a question of taste.
Mindthegap has said the rest.
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MindTheGap
357 posts
Mar 19, 2014
1:59 PM
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Focussing more on the 'lessons learned' side of this which I think is the important thing...
...as a member of the audience, it is great to see when musicians *are* communicating on stage, trading phrases, body language and so on. It's one of things that sets live performance apart from recordings.
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MTG
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KingoBad
1451 posts
Mar 19, 2014
2:10 PM
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I agree with arzajac & Adam. I got my panties in a wad trying to both to defend Kitty Davis & Lewis, and got a little myopic in addressing the issue.
If you have ever watched them in concert, they are half bent over their microphones all day anyway.
This was probably a bad example to illustrate what beginners shouldn't do, as none of these folks fit in that category.
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Danny
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MindTheGap
358 posts
Mar 19, 2014
3:16 PM
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Ha ha, I've just seen Frank101's comment. I could have sworn that wasn't there before. One of these new ghostly, 'now you see it now you don't' posts.
Still, good that no one has been banned during the making of this thread.
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MTG
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CWinter
157 posts
Mar 19, 2014
7:06 PM
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I just watched the video again, and I'm going to side with Martin 100% on this.
I don't care what was or wasn't discussed beforehand. The way that performance looks to an audience is exactly as described above. She has a lot to learn about punching above her weight, sharing the spotlight, and overplaying.
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laurent2015
646 posts
Mar 19, 2014
8:31 PM
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Anyway, she's not expecting any approval from the master, since she doesn't look at him: yes, she has the guts.
But leaving her freedom to play is a bless in disguise:as a fair return, although it's not purposely, Milteau is highlighted through his few seconds playing; the girl IS wailing, and I hope it's not in that sense that we read "wail on" in the subheader!!On that point, I agree with Rubes.
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Bamaharp
22 posts
Mar 19, 2014
9:06 PM
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Yes, this makes me chuckle, as I've been in her shoes and in more recent years I'd like to think I've been in his. She simply doesn't know how to give and take with another musician - as nacoran said, this isn't easy. She doesn't look at him because she's uncomfortable in the situation, and wailing the riff she knows over and over really is her best defense. Some more of these situations and she'll grow into them. As Adam pointed out, some of us are reading too much into this, but it's oh so familiar.
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SuperBee
1782 posts
Mar 19, 2014
11:38 PM
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Not take the spotlight away from the star of the hour?
But I think he does...this is definitely a less is more situation. It's so pleasant when she stops making that sound which sets the teeth on edge...what does JJM do ? Just plays very similiar notes but leaves some space and plays with good intonation and tone. It's such a relief from the wailing. There was no way he could lift the intensity from the wall of sound...so he created space...the most eloquent statement I can think of...'it could sound like this'
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Slimharp
253 posts
Mar 20, 2014
11:09 AM
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Just because you can play does not mean you can play, especially with others. This is terrible stuff. Dont know who's gig it was and who was sitting in, nevertheless the greastest gift in this case is manners. You either are aware or you are a jerk, informed or not.
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Slimharp
254 posts
Mar 20, 2014
11:26 AM
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One thing I had in my favor when I was starting out were people that had the guts to tell me straight up where I was making mistakes and were not worried about my feelings. Because of that I learned very quickly what not to do - ie never play over vocals, turn down, play fewer notes, dont hog leads, dont play lead lines when another is doing there leads, create tension - contrast - resolve. When in doubt, lay out.
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KentuckyBlues
56 posts
Mar 20, 2014
5:15 PM
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Sounds muddy as heck.
she should chilled out when he came up and stared her down, she keep going, and the result sounds, to me, muddy (not muddy waters muddy, but pos pickup truck muddin muddy..)
if I had been him, Ida just turned my MIC off and had fun.
I personally like to keep an open eye path to all the others playing, because of that, last night, I was able to do a call and response with the guitarist, but stopped when he was ready for me to.
its all about give and get. Give the other guys(and ladies) their space to be themselves on stage, and they should give you yours.
if I ever pulled that mess, id hope someone would straight up tell me. If I'm wrong I'm wrong, harps sound cool, but we have a place, just like everyone else, thats what makes it a band.
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didjcripey
731 posts
Mar 20, 2014
9:01 PM
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I think the prof is right about context.
I stand by what I say about Milteau though. He's a gentleman and a good bloke.
I wonder how some of the old school bluesmen would have handled it.
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Lucky Lester
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