mr_so&so
787 posts
Mar 04, 2014
3:00 PM
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In the last few months I've written a few of my own songs, including a "derivative" work, writing new lyrics for an existing copyrighted song. Then I started to wonder about how to protect my work and do things legally w.r.t. others' work.
My search led me to this lawyer's blog on the situation in the USA, which I found very useful.
What do you do about doing cover songs, and perhaps recording them for YT, or having someone in your audience record you and post it, perhaps without your knowledge? In the Internet age, what is a good way to claim an original song as your own? I use SoundCloud because I retain copyright for materials I put there.
The blues is also an interesting music genre because blues musicians frequently borrowed from each other, added new lyrics to others' songs, quoted/sampled other songs, etc. This is all fine for music published before 1925 that is now public domain, e.g. "St. James Infirmary", and including many hymns and folk songs, but it's a big no-no for copyrighted material. Although it certainly has gone on in the blues long after copyright laws came into effect. What really is current practice?
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Mar 04, 2014 3:04 PM
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jnorem
69 posts
Mar 04, 2014
4:08 PM
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Under current copyright law, an original work, which is what original lyrics are, is copyrighted once it's published by the author, which in this case means putting it up on the internet.
I have several hundred of my jazz compositions protected that way, not that anyone would want to steal an original jazz composition.
So make videos of the songs with your lyrics and post them to the internet under your legal name, and you're protected, you own the copyright for those lyrics.
I doubt that anyone own the copyright to the blues progression.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Mar 04, 2014 4:12 PM
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clyde
355 posts
Mar 04, 2014
5:30 PM
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You need to copyright your material by registering it with the United States copyright office. Placing it on YouTube is not copyrighting.
As far as using your lyrics with someone else's music is a good way to get sued if you record it and sell it without rights
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jnorem
73 posts
Mar 04, 2014
5:56 PM
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I'm sorry, you have what?
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Call me J
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clyde
358 posts
Mar 04, 2014
6:08 PM
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Nice the way you deleted the post that told me to read the law
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XHarp
539 posts
Mar 04, 2014
6:09 PM
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Mr So&so, be careful of the advice. You're in Canada yet you're getting advice from south of the 49th. Laws are different. I merely write a tune and then seal it in an envelope with a lyric sheet and a sound clip (CD) and mail it to myself as per the entertainment lawyer I had at the time. That sets the date and time of your composition under Canadian law. That's for original lyrics and sound. No Idea on what to do when you are using existing melody. I'd say unless the music is free domain you're at risk.
Pay to get your info from an entertainment lawyer. Find out from the law how it works in Canada especially if you want to promote it across borders.
Good Luck.
X
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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jnorem
74 posts
Mar 04, 2014
6:17 PM
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"Nice the way you deleted the post that told me to read the law"
My fault - didn't mean to.
I don't want to argue with anyone here, quite the opposite. I'll withdraw from this thread in good faith and friendship.
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Call me J
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XHarp
540 posts
Mar 04, 2014
6:18 PM
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Oh, and it has to remain sealed once delivered.
And I was advised that the Internet posting was questionable because of hacking. It's always a question as to whether the file date is indeed the original date of the composition. The ground mail doesn't get compromised. Or at least as easy;-)
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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slackwater
15 posts
Mar 04, 2014
6:27 PM
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A few years ago I looked into all of this stuff in Australia and not just copyright but relating to tax, indemnity insurance, managers, agents, contracts-- every aspect of music business law in this country and managed to get it all in one(rather hefty) book called Music Business, by a music industry lawyer named Shane Simpson. It was written for musicians too, not lawyers so it actually was readable and a very interesting read too.
The thing is that a lot of laws change over time. I just googled the book to see if it was still available and it's now in it's fourth, revised, addition!
There may well be a similar resource in The States and elsewhere, I don't know.
Copyright, for a long time, has been pretty much the same here as that which jnorem describes above but, If I wanted to know for sure I'd have to check the latest edition...or see a lawyer!
Since the days of cassette tapes and then CD's, some people used to post ( that's "post" as in Post Office) themselves a copy and leave it unopened as proof, it would be date stamped and all. So I'm guessing- only guessing- that internet publishing would work.
One other interesting thing I discovered in that book was about the ownership of names, band names etc., but that's the topic for another thread.
P.S. I should have read all of the posts before I started, sorry for repeating what XHarp said about the mailing thing. The digital security thing? Yeah, well..?
Last Edited by slackwater on Mar 04, 2014 6:33 PM
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isaacullah
2656 posts
Mar 04, 2014
7:02 PM
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Yo X-Harp! But you gotta watch out and write that postal code perfectly, or Canada Post will have sent your CD to Yellowknife! :)
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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mr_so&so
788 posts
Mar 04, 2014
7:16 PM
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Thanks for all the responses so far. You're right XHarp, I'm in Canada. But most songs I'd want to cover are US copyrighted. I should try to find a good source of Canadian info. Any leads? I am going to be really careful about even just performing my "derivative" work. Too bad because I really like it. It's an updated version of People Get Ready. I am considering getting permission from the copyright holders, but don't want to pay a lot of money for something I probably won't make any money on.
For my own songs there must be a modern equivalent to mailing a CD recording to myself. I record my songs on my digital recorder, which has a date on each file. Posting a file on-line is a pretty good way to preserve it (forever?) and put a date on it. I'm pretty sure it would be considered a legal date stamp too. Recording it is certainly required. Actually, I store several copies in various locations, Google Drive, Box, etc., and SoundCloud if I want to make public.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Mar 04, 2014 7:26 PM
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didjcripey
717 posts
Mar 05, 2014
2:46 AM
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You guys seem a bit obsessive/paranoid to me.
Do any of you know anybody who has been sued for public performance of copyrighted songs?
Do any of you know anybody whose original material has been performed by others to their detriment?
Doesn't mean its not going to happen, but is it likely enough to worry about?
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Lucky Lester
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Rubes
813 posts
Mar 05, 2014
3:06 AM
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What about putting covers up on sites like Reverbnation? Not making any money from that.....!?
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
Benny and Rubes at Reverbnation
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mr_so&so
789 posts
Mar 05, 2014
9:45 AM
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@didjcripey, your are right the law and its enforcement are two different things. If you read the blog I linked to above, you'll see that performing songs live is not generally a problem (however the venue is supposed to take care of the licensing for you and if they don't, that's their problem, not yours). It's when you record a cover that you can get into trouble, or change the lyrics, like I like to do sometimes. Recording is super easy to do now and can be posted for the world to see, without you even knowing about it (if someone else records you).
Copyright owners generally don't chase down fans and sue them. People covering your tune can make it more popular, and it's bad for business to p*ss of your fans. My biggest concern is about derivative works (e.g.changing lyrics). If the copyright owner does not like your version you could very well get sued. I thought this was a particularly appropriate topic for blues songs because we know that everybody (was) steeling from everyone else for decades, even impersonating other people. And yet somehow recordings and money still got made by the record companies.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Mar 05, 2014 9:46 AM
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mr_so&so
790 posts
Mar 05, 2014
9:49 AM
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@Rubes, not making any money doesn't protect you from the law. You may not be a worthwhile target to sue, though. You're still taking a chance, however small. Advice from the blog above is to always attribute the song writer(s).
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isaacullah
2657 posts
Mar 05, 2014
10:32 AM
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Especially for Blues and other "folk" music, do a thorough search of what songs are already in the public domain BEFORE making inquiries into paid licenses for "covering" the song. I'm sure that any music biz lawyer worth her salt would immediately say "Yes, it's copywritten, but you can cover it for XXX$" upon ANY such inquiry! Chances are, if it's a blues tune, it's a cover of a cover of a cover of a traditional song, and so the original song either CAN'T be copywritten, or the copyright has long since passed into the public domain. If it is an old tune that's now in the public domain, you just have to state that your inspiration is the original public domain piece (usually written in the credits as "traditional", etc.). Here's a good site where you can start your search: http://www.pdinfo.com/Public-Domain-Music-List.php
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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isaacullah
2658 posts
Mar 05, 2014
10:39 AM
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Here are a couple more links for lists of PD songs. Some of these links are mainly for Jazz and Blues, so could be very useful for you.
http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
https://archive.org/details/78rpm
http://www.jazz-on-line.com/pageinterrogation.php
https://archive.org/details/opensource_audio
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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mr_so&so
791 posts
Mar 05, 2014
1:47 PM
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@isaac, your advice to search public domain first is fabulous, thanks. I'm sure you are right that you could certainly pay someone for the right to use PD music if you want. And those links are excellent. I tested them all with "St. James Infirmary" and "God Moves On the Water", two songs I really like. They were both found by the last three sites you linked. And I learned something, because I had thought Blind Willie Johnson had written God Moves On the Water. I guess he wrote a version, as have I. This raises the question of copyright over new lyrics written for PD music. Bob Dylan did that a lot, so I guess if you write "enough" new lyrics to a song they belong to you.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Mar 05, 2014 1:49 PM
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XHarp
541 posts
Mar 05, 2014
5:58 PM
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Mr So&so, I too am in Canada and not far from you. I used a lawyer that I had engaged when I was co-writing for the band several years ago. Nothing famous or even recorded beyond our own gigs but we both wanted to protect our work. It was clear to me there would be questionable defense on web postings as legit date stamping. You'd spend more defending them or yourself than to prepare up front doing the right thing.
I've read the whole string and it's clear to me that everyone has an opinion and they're all different indicating the complexity of the solution.
If you want something less expensive check out Canadian Songwriters Association or Nashville Songwriters Association International. For nominal membership you can get advice on this from the industry.
Good Luck.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
Last Edited by XHarp on Mar 05, 2014 6:07 PM
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XHarp
542 posts
Mar 05, 2014
6:06 PM
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Isaacullah, yessa, they sure will. Yellowknife or Tuktoyaktuk. Either way, you're not getting it back.
So, where you at now? Last I heard you were leavin' Indy. Hey, there's a tune! Leavin' Indy. And I give open rights to any one who wants to use it. lmao.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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Rubes
814 posts
Mar 05, 2014
11:14 PM
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Many thanx Mr So & So and Isaac!! More work to do,,,, ;~}
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
Benny and Rubes at Reverbnation
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isaacullah
2660 posts
Mar 06, 2014
5:43 AM
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@mr_so$so: Glad I could help! Yeah, I think if you write new lyrics to a traditional song, you can copyright those, but only if you change a specific percentage of the lyrics (something to inquire of a person more knowledgeable of the law).
@Xharp: I'm in Pittsburgh this year, doing a one-year gig at the University of Pittsburgh. Next year, it's either back to Arizona, or on to Fayetteville Arkansas... I'm still waiting to find out which one! (part of the joys of being a young academic!) Hope things are well up in your neck of the woods!
@Rubes: Glad to have helped!
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YouTube! Soundcloud!
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mr_so&so
793 posts
Mar 06, 2014
11:30 AM
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@XHarp, thanks for the tip about the Songwriters Association of Canada. Their FAQ page is very useful. It says an MP3 file does not protect your copyright.
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mr_so&so
802 posts
Apr 02, 2014
3:12 PM
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Just updating this thread with a very good Web site I just found, located in Holland, that traces back popular songs to their originals, called The Originals. I was looking up "You Got to Move", often attributed to Mississippi Fred McDowell, but Wikipedia says the Blind Boys of Alabama recorded it earlier. I couldn't find it in any of the sites listed above, so Googled some more and found this site. It seems to be very thoroughly researched.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Apr 02, 2014 3:13 PM
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JustFuya
30 posts
Apr 02, 2014
7:37 PM
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When I was writing software I looked into copyright. Extensively! Right off the bat I learned that legally; software=music. I did not hire a bonded professional but why would I bother? In 2 cent increments the internet gave me more information than a $150/hour professional could. I slept well.
This is not a sad or happy story. The reality is that if you don't have a lot of money the big guys won't try to take it away. Don't worry, be hoppy. If you are a big guy, stealing another big guy's stuff, you've got yourself more entertainment than a half hour of Judge Judy.
A case in point is Ernie Ball: An excellent employer with an excellent product and top of the line clientele. I was working IT in a bank when they made local headlines as targets of a Microsoft/AutoCAD group that prosecuted them for violating their copyrights. They were as guilty as 80% of the population on earth, my employer included. Ernie Ball was a big guy in town and the bigger guys knew how to make a headline.
Since my employer was in the 80% I called Ernie Ball and asked how they got busted. It was a disgruntled ex. I brought the headline and this information to my CFO at the bank and he understood. Suddenly I was ordering legitimate copies of a shit OS (Windows) that we had to use.
Now! Remember Napster. Fondly, please. I never partook but that was a legal howdy that focused light on the subject.
PS: Ernie Ball strings are now made in Mexico.
Last Edited by JustFuya on Apr 02, 2014 7:42 PM
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mr_so&so
806 posts
Apr 03, 2014
10:38 AM
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@JustFuya, I'd think twice about banking with your former employer.... I think the point of this thread, as it progresses, is that with a little research on your part, particularly on The Originals site, you can find out if songs you might like to record are in the public domain, and if not, who might have written them. This is not always easy for blues songs. You can save yourself a world of hurt with a little knowledge, and attributing the authors of songs you cover, rather than just taking the "don't worry, be happy" approach.
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