Skilled players have the technique to get tone and some break-up out of relatively clean, powerful amps like Bassman reissues. While most of us love the early break-up of low-power tube amps, I wonder if some of the popularity of boutique harp amps is due to the ability of novice players to get tone and break-up out of these amps. While I know some top players who play boutique amps, it makes me wonder whether some pro's may eschew these amps in favor of non-harp specific amps because they don't need or want such immediate break-up. Any thoughts?
Yes that's part of it. A bigger part of it is that due to touring, most pro players have to use amps that are provided. The Bassman is available pretty much everywhere and is a known quantity for harp. So that's what a lot of pros request when using provided amps. Kim Wilson asks for Fender Hot Rod Deville amps. I seem to recall that he has said before, that for him personally even Bassman amps can sometimes break up too early.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 23, 2014 10:27 PM
My understanding is that from the 1950s to 60s the only way to overdrive an amp for a warm distortion was to use a small amp and crank it up. If you wanted more volume, you could only mic it and play it through the house PA. Each amp created a distinctive blues tone that is very hard to emulate. Today not all pros want to be limited to the sound of a single amp. But I bet most have one or two boutique amps in their closet!
Most boutique amps are closely based on a small handful of vintage commercial amps. As a general rule they use the same circuits as their vintage counterparts but they change a couple key capacitors to larger values which makes the amp capable of producing lower frequencies. You will also sometimes see extra filtering added to the power supply to keep that bass from turning into an unpleasant mushy mess.
As we know, bass takes a lot more energy to produce and because the amp is producing more bass it means you get earlier breakup and breakup without feedback. You are not actually getting more volume though. There are a few tricks that can be used to reduce feedback but that is usually at the detriment of tone so it's rare for them to be used by boutique builder.
I've owned several boutique harp amps, still have a couple, but my regular gigging amp is still a Bassman.
I favour some warmth in tone with grit when I lean into it, which it delivers perfectly.
Having said that, my very first amp was also a Bassman many years ago and I wasn't getting that sort of tone out of one then. So yes - experience, skill, mic technique, mature tone are all factors in such a choice.
@Bamaharp "Skilled players have the technique to get tone and some break-up out of relatively clean, powerful amps like Bassman reissues. While most of us love the early break-up of low-power tube amps, I wonder if some of the popularity of boutique harp amps is due to the ability of novice players to get tone and break-up out of these amps. While I know some top players who play boutique amps, it makes me wonder whether some pro's may eschew these amps in favor of non-harp specific amps because they don't need or want such immediate break-up. Any thoughts?"
"Boutique" and "harp-specific" are not synonymous (some guys have boutique amps that are not marketed as harp specific, others have vintage amps that are hard to beat as stock) and don't pertain to any single circuit topology, modification, or any other universally common factor.
Some amps, whether new, old, boutique, mass market break up easier than others. People play through what they like the sound of, easy & quick to set up. Most pros get a rich, full sound before it even hits the amp...it can be hard to distinguish what is the amp & what is them, superficially. All pros, if they fly to gigs/travel a lot, have to use pick up gear & still deliver.
Mass market amps are like cars & motorcycles, subject to manufacturing tolerances, two of the same kind might need a little blueprinting to really come to life.
Your question is interesting, but I don't really know how relevant it is in a real-world scenario. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
"Boutique" and "harp-specific" are not synonymous (some guys have boutique amps that are not marketed as harp specific, others have vintage amps that are hard to beat as stock) and don't pertain to any single circuit topology, modification, or any other universally common factor"
In this case ,the OP is referring to the HarpKing,Sonny Jr,Meteor and so forth-YES ,those are BOUTIQUE HARP AMPS-
One thing not mentioned here is the Mic. Of course the actual tone of the player is foremost however the mic being played through has a great deal to do with the final product. I have several amps and several mics and each amp responds differently to each mic. On the other hand if I play like crap it doesnt really matter. I have an old white label cm that loves my Gidson - GA-30. I plug in my R7 or ceramic and it sounds nasaly. My Bassman loves my R7 and not the CM.
TMF714 - Yours is the first post to specifically name those brands. The OP could equally as well applied to Kendrick, Victoria, Clark & so on.
The three (excellent) brands you mention all have/had differing attributes - cathode bias vs fixed, paraphase vs long tail PI, cathode follower driven tone stacks vs plate driven...other than being push-pull there isn't any single, defining, universally common feature, which was my point.
The OP's question seems to infer that boutique amps principally aim to give novices a "leg up" in getting a good tone, that accomplished players may not need. As an owner of several harp specific amps, perhaps you'll be persuaded to contribute your on-topic thoughts on that subject?
My eyesight is fine, there is no need to write big. ---------- ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
It's certainly true that a pro will make any gear sound better than an amateur. It's also true that, no matter the player, better gear sounds better. That's why pros typically own boutique amps and mics. And it is true that they don't bring them everywhere. Air travel with a Harp King 610 is prohibitively expensive for any pro harp player (except maybe Steven Tyler, but he doesn't use one.) ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Do pros really do that much air travel? Don't most ride buses when touring?
At any rate, if they are a full production show, like Aerosmith would be, they would have semi's bringing the stage to shows and could easily accomodate the gear.
If you are talking the typical blues pro - touring in a van or something, they can usually get gear to go with them too, right?
The odd balls might be guys like a Charlie Musselwhite, or other pro level players that do spot gigs at times and aren't always on a a long tour.
At any rate, I think we generally discuss gear from the wrong view ponit. I see guys rank gear like:
"Skilled players have the technique to get tone and some break-up out of relatively clean, powerful amps like Bassman reissues."
Most these guys play rooms where self monitoring with a large amp at the point of breakup is reasonable."
"While most of us love the early break-up of low-power tube amps,"
This is because you don't need the volume before break up and they are cheaper too.
"I wonder if some of the popularity of boutique harp amps is due to the ability of novice players to get tone and break-up out of these amps."
In part...it is also a status symbol thing. It is cool to have the gear whether you need it or not."
"While I know some top players who play boutique amps, it makes me wonder whether some pro's may eschew these amps in favor of non-harp specific amps because they don't need or want such immediate break-up. Any thoughts?"
See my first comment, but yes, you are probably right. Driving a clean amp gives you more control and dynamics...small distorted amps can be one trick ponies, often. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog Rock Harmonica Lessons
I figured once I used the term "boutique harp amp" everyone knew what I meant. And I know that a boutique amp and a harp specific amp can be two different things - I play for a (very modest)living. I think I cluttered the question too much, so I'll ask it again more simply: Are there advanced players who consider some harp-specific amps to be "beginner amps" and unsuitable for their needs because they may have been designed to provide good tone and break-up without solid technique?
I personally witnessed a novice friend of mine get turned down by a major harp amp builder-its garbage in,garbage out. If you work on your acoustic tone, and get good at it,then the amp will naturally emphasize your attributes-but the same can be said for poor acoustic tone. I have seen many novice players truly think the sound they are hearing comes from a specific amp or mic-simply not true.
There are no "beginner amps" that I am aware of-you would have to specify.
@ Bamaharp: "I think I cluttered the question too much, so I'll ask it again more simply: Are there advanced players who consider some harp-specific amps to be "beginner amps"
What I was trying to convey is that may seem a simple question, but the answers aren't quite as simple.
I know a couple of players who like to play "stock" amps. However, when one lives with an amp for so many years, they inevitably go through changes which may be "in keeping" with the design philosophy, but not the same as they left the factory, so there is rarely a rigid definition of "stock". Add pedals into the equation and you change the characteristics & tone of an amp some, whether you want to or not.
Also, before you start making blanket statements about what constitutes a "boutique harp amp" you need to define exactly what that is...there aren't many folk who can objectively & accurately do that - lots can read nameplates, but the nameplate doesn't carry signal ;-) - unless you can point me to the resistor, cap, speaker, tube, voltage, current that all boutique harp amps have? Even 2 different models of "boutique harp amp" from the same builder may have significantly different MO's.
Also, of the pros I have met, they may have specific reasons for using what they do, but they are fans of the instrument, music & other players and usually polite and complimentary about their peers & reluctant to publicly cast aspertions about each other. A quick "who's who" of guys that use boutique amps/boutique harp amps/modified/vintage amps will show that if you were to suggest that pro players need some "special help" to sound good you'd better have some damn fine chops to blow them into the weeds with your non boutique, non harp specific amp. Plus anyone with any longevity will probably change amps, or accumulate more than one during their career.
So, there maybe guys who feel as you suggest, but they're not in the majority & they're certainly not vocal about it.
I think there is something of a straw man fallacy in your thinking. There are only beginner players, no amp can give you good tone & technique. Amps can help you fine tune your sound (& tone can be quite a personal thing) & make you louder than acoustic, but they don't make your sound.
Use an amp/PA/preamp, whatever, because you like the sound, not because of arbitrary, almost impossible to define philosophical theories. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by 5F6H on Feb 24, 2014 1:18 PM
My two cents; I don't think there is much..anything...in the speculation that pro players sometimes eschew boutique harp amps as a class because they break up early. It's just tools for the job. And sometimes it's down to what's available. I can think of pro players who use and endorse specialised harp amps...gruenling piazza harman musselwhite and more if I think about it...Barrett..Gussow I believe uses a hg2 at times... Just off the top I spoke to Ian collard one night about gear, specifically about an sj1 I'd seen for sale in Sydney. His remark was that I'd be better off with a bassman, and he proceeded to tell me his reasoning. It all boiled down to volume, sound character and feedback. And from the pov of playing at festivals...no bus available to other countries from Australia...but also, the festival circuit isn't a logical progression like a tour...at least in Australia, people do fly to locations quite often. It's a long way between population centres. But Ian's story was largely about how he'd sold his bassman to finance a SJ, after talking to Gary, then still feeling frustrated with his stage volume...then finding himself at a festival without his amp, where a bassman was available and having a better experience. Certainly touring acts playing in my town often source back line locally. In short, re OP, it's a "no" IMHO.
I still love Bassmans, concerts, vibroverbs, Vibrokings etc…and am thrilled to see any of these as back line on fly dates. Early Break up has never been an issue with me on these rigs or a reason for a preference for a boutique amp. I prefer the balanced sound that some of the nicer boutiques have. I can get early break up out of almost any rig with a simple tube swap, or tweak of a pedal especially the Lone Wolf Harp Break. To me the harp Gear HG 50 is still the most balanced, congruent and amazing rig I have ever played. Here is the review I wrote for Harp Gear many years ago after playing and receiving the very first HG 50 ever built. Still every word of this is true to me. For some time I kept one in Europe and one here, I am still trying in vain to get that rig back to the US!
"Jason Ricci signs with Harp Gear Harmonica Amplifiers!
As many of you know I have been offered many different 'Boutique' amp endorsements over the past five years. Without mentioning any names I can say all of those amps were beautiful, well made virtual works of art, both visually stunning and great sounding in their own right. However, even though all these wonderful amps were offered to me for free or next to no charge, I just couldn't get behind any of them (fine as they are) as none seemed to suit my particular needs the way my old Fender Bassman I nick named the 'Egyptian' did. I tried many times with many different models to get that 'Tone' I had with that old Fender. Fender did not consider me a worthy endorsement decision and would not offer me even the slightest discount on their amps or repair service despite the fact that I was obviously and inadvertently selling many Fender Bassmans for them each year. I really wanted to get behind a small 'Boutique' company and back the little guy but no matter how hard I tried I just couldn't find an amp I liked by anyone that sounded better than that old Fender, until now... My friend Brian Purdy has been making small 'Boutique' harmonica amps for years now under the name 'HarpGear'. I loved all those little amps and so did hundreds of other players although due to their small size, the volume of our band, and my dependence on that one tone from the 'Egyptian' I just couldn't find a practical use for a HarpGear amp outside the recording studio and smaller gigs. The Popularity of Brian Purdy's smaller amps took off and players pro and am alike could be seen everywhere with those little monsters. Eventually almost all the other 'Boutique' amp builders took notice and followed suit in an attempt to sell a smaller HarpGear style amp. After that move Brian Purdy came back with the HG 50. A 4x10" 50 watt harmonica beast the size of a Fender Bassman but very different. I had been hesitant to try any Bassman style 'Boutique' amp as I had tried many in the past only to be disappointed and return to the real thing (which was actually not made as well but sounded better), but Brian assured me this was not another point to point wired Bassman mimic. Additionally, I was also worried about our friendship should I not like this amp as he told me the amp was built with me in mind. He brought the amp to a gig in Florida and before I plugged in I told him; 'No matter how good it sounds I'm not using it on the gig.' I plugged in and after two or three minutes of knob tweaking I was wondering not if it was 'as good' as my Fender but exactly how much BETTER it was. I played the next two nights on the HG 50 and then gladly signed an endorsement deal with HarpGear! I have never been happier with my sound, the HG 50 has everything my old beloved Fender had with a more balanced, clear, natural, and fuller sound! The HG 50 amp has quickly become an extension of me and I feel as close to in love with an inanimate object as a person can be. Thank you Brian Purdy and HarpGear for doing the impossible and making THE BEST sounding and BEST looking and BEST ever HANDMADE harmonica amp ever!!!"
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Feb 24, 2014 1:43 PM
5F6H, It seems to me that either myself or you have gotten the spirit of this thread wrong. I took it to be a simple question about why people might want boutique harmonica amps, do they really help your tone, if so, how. Or in other words, what makes them different. I did not see the "who's, who" pissing match hidden in the question.
Last Edited by rockmonkeyguitars on Feb 25, 2014 2:00 AM
@Rockmonkeyguitars I think you have interpreted a tone to my response that was not intended, nor anticipated as being seen as engaging in a pissing match. Bamaharp specifically asked, "Are there advanced players who consider some harp-specific amps to be "beginner amps" and unsuitable for their needs because they may have been designed to provide good tone and break-up without solid technique?"
My response regarding "who's who" is pertinent to that. As I said earlier, most pro players aren't in the habit of running down their peers, but if one was to say, "yeah, all those guys using boutique harp amps ("BTHA", getting sick of retyping it) are only doing so because they can't get good tone otherwise" would inevitably be being unflattering towards guys who have spent years on the pro circuit & probably outsold them many times over in album sales.
I can think of players who don't typically use BTHA, or those that don't seem to care what they use, but still ...they're unlikely to suggest that their peers who do so, do it primarily because they need some outside help, nor to find unanimous consensus outside their own 4 walls. ---------- www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by 5F6H on Feb 25, 2014 2:25 AM
^I must have missread your tone. Sorry about that.
At the end of the day it's all about having the right tools for the job. If you want a big booming low end you are not going to get it from a fender champ 600, If you want a the Fender tone you don't look at marshall. The major amp builders don't build amps for harmonica players so we have to make do or go boutique.
Here is an analogy for you. I have one Phillips screwdriver that I use for 90% of my workshop needs. It technically only fits one size screw but I can make it work for screws that it is too big for and for screws that it's too small for and it still works really well. I go through about 20 sets of screwdrivers a year and I often have exactly the right size screwdriver for the job I still favor that one screwdriver even if it's the wrong size. Occasionally I can't make my screwdriver fit and I have to find another one. If I'm teaching someone else in my workshop and they are using my tools they reach for the right screwdriver for the job, not necessarily my favorite.
That is often how we are with amplifiers. It might not technically be the right tool for the job but it's what we like, other times, we need "the right tool" for the job. When we are learning it's easier if we have the right tools and develop our own favorites as we mature. Unfortunately that isn't usually possible with harmonica. We see boutique amps as too expensive for beginners and by the time we are ready to use them to their full potential we are already comfortable with something else.
Last Edited by rockmonkeyguitars on Feb 25, 2014 2:05 AM
I can also tell you that non-harp specific amps work well if you are handy at tube swaps- Moral of the story-Kim Wilson swaps tubes in his Fender Devilles he uses on fly ins to suit his wants and needs. Sometimes that will get you the sound you desire,while cutting feedback.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Feb 26, 2014 11:30 AM
He always has great tone that is driven, yet articulate. Meaning, it has cut and bite and isn't overly muddy or crazy distorted. Perfect blues tone, IMO. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog Rock Harmonica Lessons
Thanks for all the input. I certainly didn't mean the question as a blanket "production amp vs. boutique harp amp" question. When discussing amps with a well respected player I sort of read this sentiment between the lines and wondered if there was anything to it. That's all.
