Littoral
1029 posts
Feb 12, 2014
3:19 AM
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For a solid cup on a mic it makes sense to have closed vents vs open. I'm guessing that I haven't thought about this enough because it seems a bit obvious (now that Greg mentioned it in the Rocket thread). I have a habit of liking my MS blues harps in spite of them being "ranked" lower than a lot of other models. I get a really nice curve to my tone with them. Curve meaning round smooth or even soft. I do cup tight and rely often on the vacuum compression for tone. BUT I really am happy with Crossovers now because of their responsiveness.
Question, anyone closed the vents on MB's for playing amplified?
Advantages, disadvantages. How do you close the vents.
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MindTheGap
252 posts
Feb 12, 2014
3:43 AM
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Please could you explain what is 'vacuum compression'?
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MTG
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arzajac
1283 posts
Feb 12, 2014
4:43 AM
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"How do you close the vents."
Tape. Hakan Ehn made a video or two on closed versus open and showed a quick way to close them off.
Or swap for SP20 covers. In the latter case, many folks just prefer to play SP20s.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Feb 12, 2014 4:43 AM
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Milsson
108 posts
Feb 12, 2014
5:07 AM
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On the other hand you are destroying the nice marineband, vented covers sound if you put tape over them. I don´t have big hands and i can do the "hook grip" to cover the side vents. It´s even easier with a mic because your hands are further apart.
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jiceblues
279 posts
Feb 12, 2014
6:40 AM
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If you like to cup and want responsiveness , just play SP20's .They are good when you play amplified .If you want to play acoustically , for street busking , open the covers in back , and that's it .
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HarpNinja
3759 posts
Feb 12, 2014
6:40 AM
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My main harps are Special 20's, but I have a few MB's with SP20 covers too. I go back and forth with side vents.
I am assuming vacuum compression means an airtight cupping of the harp.
My $.02...
If side vents were good enough for Little Walter and endless other badass blues players, then it isn't that big a deal.
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Mike
My Website
My Harmonica Effects Blog
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harpwrench
770 posts
Feb 12, 2014
7:27 AM
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Exactly Mike, unless you need a completely air tight cup to drive a weaker mic cartridge. I like mine hot enough to interact with the amp, and there needs to be a path for the sound to do that.
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clyde
354 posts
Feb 12, 2014
7:28 AM
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In this case I don't think it is so much about how the crowd hears us but how we hear ourselves
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Greg Heumann
2602 posts
Feb 12, 2014
8:24 AM
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"Exactly Mike, unless you need a completely air tight cup to drive a weaker mic cartridge. "
I would say you need an airtight cup to drive ANY mic.The closer you get to airtight, the more you cut the highs. That makes for that creamy, unharsh tone many of us crave. It also allows you to keep the treble UP on your amp so that when you DO open your cup there is a bigger change in sound.
If you like Gary Smith/David Barrett/Kim WIlson/Mark Hummel/Rod Piazza/Rick Estrin/Deak Harp/Mitch Kashmar etc. style amplified tone then you need to be able to get an airtight cup.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Feb 12, 2014 8:26 AM
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Kingley
3460 posts
Feb 12, 2014
8:48 AM
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"If side vents were good enough for Little Walter and endless other badass blues players, then it isn't that big a deal"
I agree completely with that statement.
I also think people put far too much emphasis on the "airtight cup" thing. If you watch players like Piazza, Estrin, Guyger and Kashmar they rarely cup the mic that tight. They play pretty loose. They only cup it "airtight" when they want to emphasise a certain phrase or to create some tonal variety. Hell, look at William Clarke he often played with one hand completely off the mic and he had huge tone. I think the secret is a relatively good seal, which allows you to use multiple tonal variations created by cupping. The "airtight seal" can be a good thing if it's used as part of a bag of tricks, but when it;s used as the only game in town as it is by so many then it can create a very one dimensional sound. I'd advise people to learn as many cupping techniques as they can because, there are many varied ways to cup a mic and create good tone. Good tone isn't just that big fat muffled sound that has become de rigueur amongst so many players today.
Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 12, 2014 9:15 AM
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harpwrench
773 posts
Feb 12, 2014
8:51 AM
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Thanks for the tonal advice. I have no problem doing that with vented Marine Bands nor do any of the guys you listed.
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Littoral
1030 posts
Feb 12, 2014
8:53 AM
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Greg: "That makes for that creamy, unharsh tone many of us crave."
Yeah, I called it vacuum compression because it feels that way when it works -meaning "that creamy, unharsh tone many of us crave" -which I described as a really nice curve...meaning round smooth or even soft.
So, does a closed vent allow for a better cup (or perhaps a better directed flow of air to the element)?
As soon as I get the chance I'll find out for myself by closing the vents on an XO (thanks arzajac) but any prior experience on this is most appreciated.
Last Edited by Littoral on Feb 12, 2014 8:56 AM
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chromaticblues
1545 posts
Feb 12, 2014
9:11 AM
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Thank You Kingley! You beat me to it.
I can only speak of my own experience with mics.
In the first 10 to say 15 years of playing I would try to get the tightest grip on the mic because it sounded so good getting that big fat sound.
Honestly I think it was because I wasn't that good yet and just didin't sound very good unless I did that.
Now I'm trying different mics because when ever I hear something played back it sounds too dark with no high end sparkle. To me if you have a good sweet natural tone. You don't want to worry to much about that big fat amped tone! WAY to many people I hear sound like mud! Distortion, flat with all midrange. Just too much! Sometimes I'm one of them and I didn't even know it untill a few months ago.
The last half of Kingley's 3460 post is absolutly a fact!
Honestly I think Sp 20's sound better acoustically and MB's sound better amped.
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Greg Heumann
2603 posts
Feb 12, 2014
10:58 AM
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My position is "if you can't get there, you don't know what it sounds/feels like and you might be missing something." Once you CAN get there, you have more tonal tools.
I do not advocate a full airtight cup all the time. However I DO advocate learning to get there. The vast majority of players I coach, even guys who have been playing for 40 years - are amazed when they learn that they "never knew that" and love what it can do for them.
You play with a spectrum of tone from full cup to open hands. But if you can only get from open hands to some fraction of full cup, you will tend to have less RANGE between dark/fat and bright/harsh. A tight cup significantly cuts treble, allowing you to use brighter mics and cleaner amps from which you can STILL get warm tone - but also a wider range of tones available through the use of your hands. The players I mentioned ALL use a very tight cup part of the time.
I am not in the same league as those guys. But, thanks to the business I'm in, I have paid great and deep attention to tone for years now. I have been told I have excellent tone by many pros, and I'm very proud of my tone personally. I think I know what I'm talking about in this regard, but I certainly don't claim my way is the only way. I can tell you that side vents make it a lot harder to achieve what I'm talking about.
Come to my "amps, mics and tone" seminar at the 20th Anniversary Harmonica Masterclass extravaganza and I will demonstrate this and SHOW you.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Feb 12, 2014 10:59 AM
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chromaticblues
1546 posts
Feb 12, 2014
11:35 AM
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@ Greg I totally agree with everything in your last post. I just wanted to clearify my position.
I think harp players obsess over tone way to much.
It just comes naturally with time/pratice/performing.
Your probably right about "if you can't get there then how do you know".
Also this is not a personally atack on you or anyone.
This is just me explaining my personal taste in harmonica playing.
I have heard many top pros play live and HATED their tone! Not because it wasn't fat enough, but because that's all it was! I'm not going to start naming names, but it is part of the harmonica culture to do this and honestly I just think it sounds to low-fi.
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Barley Nectar
299 posts
Feb 12, 2014
11:44 AM
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+ 1 for Kingly and Chromaticblues. You guys nailed. Greg, you have world class tone and phrasing...G
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nacoran
7531 posts
Feb 12, 2014
12:38 PM
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Would you say the curve to the tone you are describing is the opposite of rasp?
I like the sound of Blues Harps too, although I don't like the feel on my lips, and I prefer the pre-MS ones. I'm actually putting together a playing set of pre-MS Blues Harps, leaning towards making them my playing model.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
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Littoral
1031 posts
Feb 12, 2014
2:03 PM
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@nacoran "Would you say the curve to the tone you are describing is the opposite of rasp?"
Sure, but not so much "opposite" as different than the rasp MB's do well. My take on rasp is the intentional blend/bleed of a second note.
Opinions... I think having to articulate harp/sound concepts in words is helpful because we have to think carefully about it. We learn a lot that way. But some of the parsing of language gets tiresome because we're often saying so close to the same thing that if we were sitting in the same place we'd agree on 90% of what we are dicussing. The other 10% would quickly sort out real and interesting differences.
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DukeBerryman
152 posts
Feb 13, 2014
7:47 AM
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I'm not that familiar with open vs. closed vents - I play Lee Oskars. But I agree with Greg about cupping. You can make any mic/amp rig sound good with proper cupping. In fact, you should already have the perfect cup for accoustic playing. You should be able to sound like you are playing amplified while playing acoustic with good cupping. I don't know if my cup is technically airtight, but know exactly how to change my tone - amped or not - with my hands.
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Todd Parrott
1195 posts
Feb 13, 2014
8:35 AM
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I can't comment about amplified playing, but acoustically, if you really wanna hear the difference between vented and non-vented covers (or any other changes in the covers), spend some time recording through a nice condenser mic, and listen back to the comparisons. This allows you to hear very clearly what the sound is like coming out of the back of the harp, versus what you hear while the harp is in your face.
Sometimes I like side vents, especially on keys Bb and lower, and sometimes I don't - just depends. But I don't think side vents make or break my tone. They look cool on Golden Melodies though. :)
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CarlA
454 posts
Feb 13, 2014
9:13 AM
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It seems like simple common sense to just create a cover plate that has the ability to covert from closed to open vented cover plates with a simple "slide" mechanism to allow the user to either open or close the vent on a dime??
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walterharp
1315 posts
Feb 13, 2014
9:45 AM
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Interesting thread.. I am with Todd. You cannot hear what everyone else hears while you play. Your jaw physically transmits sound to your ear. So the only way to really tell is record it.
On cupping, I was noticing just the other day that Wilson does not cup much of the time very tightly (his right hand is always waving around making him look cool)
On the vents, not quite a slide, but Joe showed me, just a little electrical tape inside the cover plate will do it, no time at all. and for those little holes at the tops of some of the harps on the ends (where they fold the metal to make a cover plate) that does not seal very well... blue tack works.. just a dab will do ya!
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Todd Parrott
1196 posts
Feb 13, 2014
10:06 AM
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A local player here showed me his Marine Bands, and he'd used some type of silver, metallic electrical tape that seemed to work really well. It looked like he'd permanently bonded it to the harp somehow. Almost looked like it was welded. Next time I see him, I'll ask him again how he did it.
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walterharp
1317 posts
Feb 13, 2014
10:38 AM
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The black electrical tape on inside is invisible from outside and never falls off. I even sent them to Spiers for a fix and tune, and they came back still in the same place (meaning shipping did not knock them off, not that Joe would ever purposely change anything that somebody obviously wanted on their harps)
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arnenym
265 posts
Feb 13, 2014
11:25 AM
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I put on a bit tape. -The style of tape you can use when you tape a small wound. We call it surgeon tape in Sweden-. I put the tape on the inside of the covers and put on a clear cellulosa laquer on both sides.
I have some Marine bands with vents when i play in a song mic.
Last Edited by arnenym on Feb 13, 2014 11:29 AM
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Milsson
109 posts
Feb 13, 2014
2:19 PM
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Dennis gruenling showing us all how's it done! http://youtu.be/jBmDhwUTmIY
Last Edited by Milsson on Feb 13, 2014 2:19 PM
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Littoral
1032 posts
Feb 13, 2014
5:58 PM
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Pretty sure his main harps are XO, and out of the box. That is what he told me. But that's not quite relevant to the vent topic.
Tape. Thanks for the suggestions. Simple simple simple.
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Frank
3821 posts
Feb 13, 2014
6:15 PM
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May have been mentioned already...but Gregs smallish wooden mics will go along way in securing better cuppage capabilities :)
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Chris L
33 posts
Feb 13, 2014
10:37 PM
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A silver metallic tape like Todd mentioned can be found at most auto shops. I've used a tiny rectangular snip of thin "Chrome" tape on a couple of Big Rivers. Blends in nicely and feels very solid. Similar to muffler tape. I haven't used it on a Marine Band because even though the bond is not actually welded, I expect it would be a devil to get off.
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dan.rfd
10 posts
Feb 17, 2014
4:22 AM
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I use a compromise.. I close the vents on the left side only. I use bluetac and build it up to make the grip more comforatlbe and a create tighter seal with my left hand.
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