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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Don't bring a wet noodle to a knife fight
Don't bring a wet noodle to a knife fight
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TheATL
76 posts
Jan 20, 2014
10:12 AM
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This topic has been covered door-to-door on the forum, but just to repeat, I thought I would relate what happened at a gig last night.
[short version]
Don’t bring a wet noodle to a knife fight. If you know a venue is going to be loud, then bring an amp that is large enough to compete, or at least one that is loud enough to let you hear what you are playing. Also, know when to go home.
[long version]
Saturday evening I went out and ran across a guy who was killin it. It was just him on vocals and guitar and his bass player, and they were fantastic! I just happened to sit next to a guy who knew the band. He encouraged me to go talk to the guy during the break. I did that, and he invited me to sit next to the stage off mic and play. Fair enough - he never heard me play, and it's a paying gig for him. At the end of the night, he invited me to bring my amp Sunday evening and play with him at the same venue in a jam after the main gig. Well…
I show up with my LW-modified Epiphone Jr. He is there playing with his full band and it’s LOUD. I am guessing he is running 100 watts in a 800 sq. ft. room in addition to the house PA. After his gig is over I set up, and first song out of the box, I can’t hear s*#t. Try putting a house mic next to the Epi, but no joy – tons of feedback. Throw in the towel and try playing through the house PA. So loud that I need to cup the mic to get enough gain to hear what I am playing – but when I do that, the feedback is horrendous. Try playing on a few more songs and get the ‘hater’ look from the guy. I can see him thinking, ‘another harp guy that can’t play worth a darn’. I pack up the harps, toss down the free shot from the bar (hey – at least I got something out of it) and head for the barn.
So, having read about similar experiences on the forum, I thought about it and tried to focus on what I can take away from it:
- I really don’t suck that bad. The situation was difficult/impossible, so I should not focus on how poorly I was playing (this is a lot easier to say than to do – I feel like I seriously crashed and burned). If you don’t have enough amp to allow you to play softly so you don’t loose your tone and nuances, then don’t play.
- Don’t play at really loud gigs. Not worth it when the stage volume is unbearable (did I mention that I wore an earplug on the side facing the guy’s guitar amp to reduce the pain?).
- Sometimes you get snookered. An opportunity looks good when it is not. I should have declined to play as soon as I went into the place and heard the sound levels, even though it was an opportunity to play with a really talented musician and vocalist.
- Don’t bring a wet noodle to a knife fight. If you know you are going to play in an environment like this, pack a Bassman or something appropriate. My Epi has great tone, but relying on the house PA last night was a disaster, whether I tried to mic my amp or play through the house.
- Take a breather and then get back up and live to play another day
Out
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HarpNinja
3695 posts
Jan 20, 2014
10:17 AM
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"Don’t play at really loud gigs. Not worth it when the stage volume is unbearable (did I mention that I wore an earplug on the side facing the guy’s guitar amp to reduce the pain?)."
Agreed!!!
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Mike
My Website
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MP
3065 posts
Jan 20, 2014
12:20 PM
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Ah, one of the many problems of 'sitting in'. Seems you don't need any advice. It is not always possible to have a Bassman out in the trunk of your car.
When the "volume is unbearable" that tells me that the band is probably either not very good or very rock oriented.
most bars around here don't go for loud bands because the bartenders and the wait help need to be able to hear orders.
I rarely get out to sit in with bands I don't know. I took the place of a bands harp player Sat. cuz he couldn't make it and tonight I do the Hard Rock Café w/ my own band.
It's been decades since I haven't had my own band and I'm soooooo grateful I don't have to find a jam so I can play my harps. Soooo grateful.
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LSC
577 posts
Jan 20, 2014
2:48 PM
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Beyond the hindsight of possibly asking the guy from the beginning if you needed a small or large amp there are two things that kind of jumped out at me.
"Try putting a house mic next to the Epi, but no joy – tons of feedback."
I assume the feedback was coming from the monitors when you mic'ed the amp. Sounds like a not very good sound guy. You should have been able to use your amp as a monitor as long as you didn't wander too far away and reduce the harp level in the stage monitor to a point where it was not feeding back but did give a bit of extra boost.
" Throw in the towel and try playing through the house PA. So loud that I need to cup the mic to get enough gain to hear what I am playing – but when I do that, the feedback is horrendous."
Again an indicator of a not very good sound guy. Common problem with vocal mics used for harp. Reduce the gain on the mic which reduces how "hot" it is. You can often reduce gain and then lift the volume fader. You can also reduce the treble a lot which also affects gain and reduces the usual frequencies that are creating the problem when playing harp. Harp and vocal require different eq. If you need to adjust on the fly it is usually possible to get quite close to the mic but without cupping. A good practice is when you first step to the mic put your hand over it for just a split second. If it's going to squeal it will usually do so instantly, which is why you need to treat it like a hot pan you're not sure about. Get your hand out of the way before it can get burned but you'll still know what you're dealing with. Cup a vocal mic with great caution and expect it to feedback. Sometimes you can even use a sort of half cupping technique where your hands are around the mic but still open. This is with the mic left on the stand of course. You can get a bit more volume but without creating feedback.
As for the rest, don't beat yourself up about it. Chalk it up to experience.
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LSC
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LSC
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harmonicanick
2126 posts
Jan 20, 2014
2:51 PM
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@TheAtl
Over many years IMHO just get a SM57 and crank the pa as high gain as it gets, and let it rip.
Stand forward and side of the band..
Remember the audience dont give a..
Last Edited by harmonicanick on Jan 20, 2014 2:53 PM
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6SN7
415 posts
Jan 20, 2014
3:52 PM
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I know many MBH members here love their 5 watt amps and use them when performing. I have used low powered amps at gigs only when their was a dedicated and knowledgeable sound man and an excellent PA system with a mixing board and monitors. Or the room was small.
As for the suggestion of cranking the pa because the audience doesn't care, I would not like someone playing like that with me. I am sure nick wouldn't either.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Jan 21, 2014 5:32 AM
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Barley Nectar
247 posts
Jan 20, 2014
4:05 PM
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+1 for LSC, he nailed it...BN
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SuperBee
1627 posts
Jan 20, 2014
7:27 PM
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And importantly, don't bring a knife to a noodle fest. These are chopstick-only events. Knifes are only gonna see someone get hurt
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LSC
579 posts
Jan 20, 2014
7:51 PM
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Always bring a gun to a knife fight. See Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, the very short knife vs gun fight in the market. Which by the way was done at Harrison Ford's request because he had food poisoning and couldn't hack the long fight scene that was scripted. Which is another lesson, one must be able to adapt.
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LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Jan 20, 2014 7:51 PM
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Rick Davis
2893 posts
Jan 20, 2014
8:33 PM
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LSC is right: The big feedback you got when you tried putting a vocal mic in front of your amp was probably from the monitors. You could ask the sound guy to take that mic out of the monitors but then you would have no chance of hearing yourself.
A line out on your amp might have helped. Eliminating the mic in front or your amp eliminates a big feedback potential. with the line out you might be able to get some signal in the monitors and hear yourself play.
But some stages are just too freaking loud for harp no matter what you do. Too loud even for a Bassman with a Kinder pedal. You don't even want to be there, so save yourself the aggravation and don't get on stage.
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-Little Rick Davis
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Frank
3719 posts
Jan 21, 2014
4:45 AM
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So, having read about similar experiences on the forum, I thought about it and tried to focus on what I can take away from it...
Learn to distinguish between a band that (WANTS to PLAY MUSIC with you) and (WANTS your CONTRIBUTION to the song/s)
And a band that is using you as an "ASS CLOWN" and could really careless about you being on stage and even less about you contributing to the song/s.
You can choose to not play these silly games...
Raise your musical antennas a little higher...You should quickly learn...WHO your musical FRIENDS are and WHO wants you to be their ASS CLOWN :)
So if you do bring a wet noodle to a knife fight...Bring your common sense along to...RUN :)
"You Can't Polish a TURD"
OR...can you?
Last Edited by Frank on Jan 21, 2014 6:01 AM
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jbone
1469 posts
Jan 21, 2014
4:53 AM
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You know, I don't like to be a civilian at a loud gig. Why would I want to be a player at one? No offense ATL, I have been there several times. Sometimes I was in a band that was just that way and I hoped for better and tried to influence the band to lower volume, but there's a reason it's called volume DISEASE. I think some folks just can't not play loud.
I have sat in with guys who have custom earplugs. Last time they asked me to sit in I asked if the whole joint would have earplugs like that. Of course I got that funny look. I did NOT sit in with them and will not support that silliness any more. Life is too short for that kind of stress.
Wife and I are about to recruit a bass player and drummer. They will be low volume like us or it will be someone who is. We want to play cafes, 800 sq ft rooms, not arenas. To me the whole rock show mentality is a farce and an insult to real music appreciators. If you look out at an audience and see people shouting across the table, there is something really wrong with the sound.
I will never use earplugs again. I will not assault band mates or patrons with high volume again. That's my motto. I love the intimacy of having short conversations between songs, mostly just to establish a crucial repoire with my audience.
We all live and learn. I am never afraid to just politely decline an invitation these days.
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HarveyHarp
566 posts
Jan 21, 2014
7:06 AM
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Here is yesterday's story. There are two list members from England, Joseph and Paddy, who are visiting New Orleans, who by the way did not know each other until they met here, who are both fabulous players. So, Monday night has a couple of blues Jams, the first of which is historically loud, and I told both of my new English friends about them, so I went.
The first jam was so loud that it hurt, even with the strongest ear plugs that I had. This stage is crowded and there is not a Harp Player in the band, for good reasons, so I played through the PA. Since I am going deaf, I could hear nothing, and I was sure I was sucking really bad. I was on stage with a Buddy Guyish guy, who is one of the loudest in town. He is a good player and singer, but just too loud, and doesn't care. Most people will not even let him on stage. Luckily, my new MBH Friends chose not to come to this one. After I was done, and one the way out, people were telling me how great I sounded. Amazing. But, I will never go to that jam again. I go there for other show, such as when Adam Gussow was there, and when I play in a band there, and because the food is great.
Then I went to the second jam, hosted by Smoky Greenwell, and met the second of our list members, Paddy. Joseph had been here for a week by then, and he found other venues to play in, so he was not there. So Smoky calls one of us up, and Paddy went first and got to play with some real quality players, and sounded great through the Harp King and 631 mic that Smoky uses. Then my turn comes, and guess who comes on stage to play guitar. Thats right, my Buddy Guyish friend. I am thinking great, here we go again. But to my suprise, he was not loud, played with great feeling, and I enjoyed myself. I asked Smoky, who was playing Sax right next to me if he had read they guy the riot act about volume, and he just smiled.
Th moral of the story is that the band leader can fix the problem, and if he does not care to, then he does not care to have me come to his jam anymore.
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HarveyHarp
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Martic
58 posts
Jan 21, 2014
9:27 AM
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Keep your gear for your own gigs. If you don't have the time to do a soundcheck and/or you can't tell your partners to play lower (considering you're a guest player, not a band member), you better simplify everything.
A SM57 can sound great plugged to almost anything. Playing out of town I've been borrowed of the crappiest solid state guitar amps, so as straight to the PA, and my 57 have never failed. All you need is a cable adapter, some EQ and voilá! Personally I've never needed the impedance transformer: the low z reduces the output and it gives you more headroom to play. All the rest is cupping.
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Slimharp
127 posts
Jan 21, 2014
9:54 AM
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There is a time to use discernment and say , nah, not this one. As Jimmy Day ( Hank Williams last Steel Guitar player I used to play with in Nashville )would say " When in doubt lay out ". It's never failed me. If someone said sit next to the stage and play off mic I would be walking to my car.
Last Edited by Slimharp on Jan 21, 2014 9:55 AM
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TheATL
77 posts
Jan 21, 2014
3:16 PM
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Everyone,
Had a few days to cool off. I really appreciate all your thoughts. A little extra information:
There was no sound guy - this was a bar, and the PA is run by the band. (Yeah - I know. How could I miss this as a serious clue that it was a deadly venue?)
Alcohol was involved - a LOT of it. Not on my part, but on the part of the band. Some people's personality change for the worse when they drink, and now that I have had some time to think about it, I recognize that this is what happened with the guy who invited me to come to play. Saturday night he was ok. Sunday night he was drunk as hell, and he turned nasty. Another clue - when I played on Saturday he would lean over as he was starting each song and tell me the key. Worked out great - and since it was a small venue, and he was not playing loudly through the PA, people in the house hear me just fine. Sunday I was left to hustle through the harps to find what they were playing - you know the drill. And the place was total Road House. Would have been great if I was 16 years old sneaking in to get a drink, but 16 was a long time ago, and my priorities are a lot different.
Frank made an important point - play with people who WANT your contribution. I play in a house band about 30 minutes from here, and they are great. Never had a bad experience. I also just play for the fun of it with a jam group one day per week, and that is also a terrific experience. But I wanted to play and this was an opportunity to get out 5 minutes walking from my house. So much for convenience.
The suggestion to pack an SM57 is a great one. I have one and carry it as my backup to my bullet. But...
There are a lot of good lessons in this thread, and by paying attention, I hope to never get caught in this situation again.
Thanks for the feedback. You guys are great.
Brad
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