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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Bending Help Request
Bending Help Request
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SmokeJS
207 posts
Dec 18, 2013
3:11 PM
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One of my biggest issues as a relative beginner is bending. I can reasonably hit all the draw bends outside of a musical context but when an accurate bent note is needed in a musical passage it becomes hit and miss. The main culprit seems to be nose leakage. With my nasal passage well closed off I can be okay but otherwise forget it. Any helpful hints out there that might help me? Do more experienced harpers play all draw notes, bent or not, with a closed nose? Is this a conscious act or just something you did naturally? What about blow notes? Thanks for any tips!
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nacoran
7430 posts
Dec 18, 2013
4:11 PM
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I never really thought about it, but I don't seem to close my nose. I can still feel air coming in.
As for getting pitch just right, you can practice with a tuner. There is a neat app called HarpNinja (http://harpninja.com/wp/) that is good for practicing hitting bends to pitch.
When I was learning there was Bend-0-Meter, but HarpNinja is better.
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The Iceman
1343 posts
Dec 19, 2013
6:49 AM
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The ability to consciously open and close that passage that leads to your sinus area is just one of the techniques to learn if you want to improve your technique.
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The Iceman
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colman
283 posts
Dec 19, 2013
12:51 PM
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The meat part of bending a note[2draw]is as you draw in 2d ,feel THE SAYING of AAAAA!,not ah but A! Then pronounce ALL, THATS A-ALL.IF U DO THIS GOOD YOU WILL NATURALLY BEND THAT 2D,THATS A-ALL. and this helps control the air between the mouth and nose.
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STME58
620 posts
Dec 19, 2013
5:14 PM
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I have not noticed a difference in the ability to bend based on whether or not air is passing out of my nose. I sometimes exhale though my nose while playing if I am going to need to do a long draw after a short blow. I am not saying this is good or proper technique, it's just my experience.
Most of us have some control over this as evidenced by the fact that we don't hold our noses in order to blow up a balloon.
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BigBlindRay
208 posts
Dec 19, 2013
5:56 PM
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Hi MBHers.
Im going to throw a monkey wrench in here. In my opinion, learning to practice bending with the aid of a tuner or any related app is probably THE WORST way to get better at bending?
Why?
Because you're relating the pitch to a dot on the screen or a needle on a tuner - you are not doing anything to train your ear to hear relative pitch.
In regards to utilizing the nose. it like to think of it as a valve that will help regulate breath control.
You should however, work on not relying on it in the early stages of playing if you are having problems with bending - It might be a case of having to relearn the muscle memory which in that case may require you to go back to basics.
A student of mine had been having issues with working bends into a musical context but his practice routine was lacking discipline.
Try sitting with a metronome at round 50bpm and play your major scale in 1st, 3rd and 12th position. Play each note over a two beat period - focus on maintaining even control over each note throughout.
If you need pitch reference, test it against a piano keyboard - NOT a tuner. You want to be able to hear the sound in your head and trust your ears.
Then try working the Major pentatonic scales in the same position using the same tempo and approach.
Sometimes you need to think less about what it is you are doing internally and focus more on how it sounds. "Are my notes stable? In tune? is it sounding smooth? connected? even in dynamics? Am I relaxed? What can I do to be more relaxed when I play?"
Constant self assessment will help to understand the inner workings - But at the end of the day - however you get there - Its the result that should speak for itself.
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SuperBee
1589 posts
Dec 19, 2013
6:58 PM
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I think using a tuner can be very helpful when you're getting started. Sure, you want to be able to hit the pitches relative to the music. Its a learning aid, not something to become dependent on.
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Komuso
258 posts
Dec 19, 2013
7:15 PM
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@BigBlindRay Yes, (waves to fellow aussie) you're correct in having a reference pitch but HarpNinja includes that and a whole lot more for helping build your mental model of the harp faster. It's no different from using a metronome to hone your rhythmic awareness.
From David Barrett's recent Tip of the Day: Bending & Harmonica Visualization Software (HarpNinja)
"This is the most effective tool I've found to provide a visual reference of the depth of your bends and to help you dial in your bends to a particular pitch
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It tracks the pitch of your bend, and when you play a bend in tune (to a particular pitch), the harmonica hole lights up to tell you that you got it. You can also click on that hole and a reference pitch is played (very helpful). "
re: If you need pitch reference, test it against a piano keyboard - NOT a tuner. You want to be able to hear the sound in your head and trust your ears.
I also just added a piano keyboard view to HarpNinja recently too (based on a suggestion from David Barrett & which I happened have lying around from another project so it was an easy,quick addition) with same clickable button functionality to hear a reference tone.
I also agree with SuperBee and Nacoran (ty for the mention)
"Its a learning aid, not something to become dependent on."
It's called "Scaffolding" in learning design terms, and HarpNinja is designed to act in this capacity, as well as a reference and analysis tool for more advanced players.
Instructional scaffolding
"Instructional scaffolding is a learning process designed to promote a deeper level of learning. Scaffolding is the support given during the learning process which is tailored to the needs of the student with the intention of helping the student achieve his/her learning goals (Sawyer, 2006).
Instructional scaffolding is the provision of sufficient support to promote learning when concepts and skills are being first introduced to students. These supports may include the following:
resources
a compelling task
templates and guides
guidance on the development of cognitive and social skills
Use of instructional scaffolding in various contexts:
modeling a task
giving advice
providing coaching
These supports are gradually removed as students develop autonomous learning strategies, thus promoting their own cognitive, affective and psychomotor learning skills and knowledge. Teachers help the students master a task or a concept by providing support. The support can take many forms such as outlines, recommended documents, storyboards, or key questions."
re: Sometimes you need to think less about what it is you are doing internally and focus more on how it sounds. "Are my notes stable? In tune? is it sounding smooth? connected? even in dynamics? Am I relaxed? What can I do to be more relaxed when I play?"
This is a great point. Hal Galper has some excellent advice on this in relation to practice mind vs performance mind
kenoath!
(that's a little aussie slang that means really good)
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 19, 2013 8:30 PM
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Milsson
98 posts
Dec 19, 2013
11:12 PM
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I would say that using a tuner is fine when you start out bending. BUT when you can start playing scales it's essential that you practice with piano/guitar/whatever. It will give you a sence of intervalls(the distance between notes). I do this as often i can. I play a major scale on my chrom listen and then play it on my diatonic, Over and over.
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MindTheGap
125 posts
Dec 19, 2013
11:37 PM
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The OP was asking for advice about closing off the nose, rather than about using tuners, software etc.
My understanding is that this is done with the soft palate. You automatically open or close it to make various spoken sounds (e.g. saying Nnnn vs T). Or as STME58 says, when you blow up a balloon. Or draw through a straw vs humming. And for playing, it's useful to be take conscious control of it.
Iceman - can you elaborate?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 19, 2013 11:41 PM
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SuperBee
1591 posts
Dec 20, 2013
12:21 AM
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You can practice breathing in through nose, out mouth and vice versa. Don't move tongue or jaw. Build up speed. I'm not sure it's got much to do with accurate bending of itself, but it's part of the whole package of control I'm sure.
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Komuso
259 posts
Dec 20, 2013
12:32 AM
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re: closing off nose
Difficulty with it may also be related to not having full control and awareness of your body - from the inside of your mouth, your tongue, your lungs/diaphragm, even your whole body tension/relaxation.
It does take time to be fully relaxed and be fully aware of individual parts of your body at the same time.
I've actually found visual feedback from a pitch tuner can help here as well. You can be playing a note on pitch but the tone to get that pitch can vary dramatically based on the the resonance chamber you form with your mouth/tongue/jaw palette etc. One configuration may show on pitch but slightly sharp, another slightly flat with a significant tonal difference.
By using visual + audio feedback when experimenting with different configurations of your embouchure you can gain awareness much quicker of the effects of changing different aspects of it to optimise both tone and pitch.
Recording yourself and listening back is also an essential part of this. What we hear between our ears is all to different sometimes to what we hear when played back.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 20, 2013 12:41 AM
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MindTheGap
126 posts
Dec 20, 2013
1:08 AM
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Komuso - "Recording yourself and listening back... ". Different topic but I couldn't agree more. I was shocked and deflated when I started doing this, and still am, as what I was hearing when playing was clearly quite different to what was going into the room. I think it's particularly a harp thing, as the sound is resonating in your own head and body, like your own voice, it sounds radically different to what's being projected out. Lots of people must have had the experience of thinking that they sound like Richard Burton, but when they hear their voice recorded - well they don't.
From experience you get that with other instruments you have a physical contact with e.g. violin where half the sound you hear yourself is coming through your bones, and you've got one ear about 4 inches from the thing. But the harp it seems to be a particularly strong. At least with piano or guitar you can be fairly sure what you hear is more or less what they hear. However good or poor your sound.
Actually when I play amped which I do most often, I'm less shocked and deflated as I can hear the actual sound out of the speaker.
Yet another thing I wished I'd known at the start - get recording early, and avoid disappointment. Thanks Komuso, that's a great topic for the beginners thread.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 20, 2013 1:15 AM
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The Iceman
1346 posts
Dec 20, 2013
5:24 AM
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I am in agreement w/Big Blind Ray and am not a fan of using a visual reference to instill pitch accuracy from within.
The most powerful resource is contained inside your mind's ear. All pitches "live" there in one form or another based on your life long programming of listening to music done properly. It is merely a matter of accessing what you already know, which is a shorter path than using an external reference (ie - keyboard) or a visual reference.
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The Iceman
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Komuso
261 posts
Dec 20, 2013
8:06 AM
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"All pitches "live" there in one form or another based on your life long programming of listening to music done properly."
That's correct, and nice in theory, but lack of deep listening skills is a key weakness in most people - and a lot of musicians as it happens.
Hal Galper (there he is again!) says a lot about listening all through this one - one comment at 34:00 for beginners is useful
fyi the history of color/visual music goes back to at least the 18th century, when Louis- Bertrand Castel, invented the first color organ.
Visual Music Notes
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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KDT
20 posts
Dec 20, 2013
9:27 AM
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Ok, SmokeJS. I'm going to take a stab at this from a bit of a different angle. Firstly, you should know that while I am probably moving into the intermediate range by Adam's definition, I have been playing for less than 2 years and lack the experience of some other posters.
It seems to me that if your are happy with your bends in a practice context but not a musical one, rather than trying to solve the problem within the musical context, it might work to try to transfer you practice technique to music. In my mind, this approach comes out of this Dan Gage video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBvE5h0G4EI
I would start by picking a bend and hitting it several times in a row. Then, maybe start a simple jam track and play that same bend to the rhythm of the track. Are you still happy with the bend? If so, add the next complexity: play to the rhythm of the jam track with only the bend and the draw note (unbent) on the same hole. Next add and adjacent hole to your riff. At each step, try to add the "simplest complexity" you can think of. If the bend starts to deteriorate, go back one step and play that step for longer.
What I am trying to get at is I don't think you have to solve the problem "What is wrong with my bend when I play music?" because in the right context, you've already got the bend. The wheels are falling off the wagon when you have to deal with the added complexities of playing music rather than playing a note. If I understand your problem correctly, by breaking the path from notes to music into tiny manageable steps, you might get the results you want.
The video above has become a foundation of how I am learning harmonica. Instead of additive techniques, I think about additive complexity. Any new complexity my brain needs to deal with while playing the harmonica risks undercutting complexities I am already handling, so I try to break these complexities into the smallest parts possible and add them to my playing in a systematic way. I hope this helps and best of luck.
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The Iceman
1347 posts
Dec 20, 2013
1:24 PM
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Kumoso...
interesting stuff.
"That's correct, and nice in theory, but lack of deep listening skills is a key weakness in most people - and a lot of musicians as it happens."
Maybe so, but I have great success with my students when approaching them this way.
It is much easier for them to accept that they already have the knowledge programmed into them and merely need to learn how to access it rather than the daunting task of learning music theory from scratch.
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The Iceman
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SmokeJS
211 posts
Dec 20, 2013
2:16 PM
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KDT, good, simple, logical approach that I will certainly give a shot for awhile.
Iceman, not sure I have a grasp of the approach you're suggesting. Accessing something I already know makes sense but how that relates to consistently hitting bends in a musical passage as opposed to a practice session is over my head. If your discussion is more about getting bends without a point of reference other than past experience then how can a student accomplish that without external guidance from a mentor to ensure accuracy?
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Dec 20, 2013 2:17 PM
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The Iceman
1348 posts
Dec 20, 2013
2:53 PM
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SmokeJS...
What I expound is based on my evolution of teaching harmonica over the years into a razor sharp focus and accelerated student learning experience, based on shortcuts I've found.
I am the mentor that gives guidance to the student. This is what I'm paid to do.
To discuss it in a chat environment is somewhat helpful, but doesn't encompass the full range of information imparted to a student.
If you search the archives for discussions on bending, there are many instances in which I outlined a few of the approaches I've found successful.
Once I've posted these, I don't really like to rewrite them over and over again.
Happy hunting and remember, you already contain all you need in order to hit those bends. All you need is someone to open your internal door so you can access the information.
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The Iceman
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timeistight
1463 posts
Dec 20, 2013
3:18 PM
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"I can reasonably hit all the draw bends outside of a musical context but when an accurate bent note is needed in a musical passage it becomes hit and miss."
"Accessing something I already know makes sense but how that relates to consistently hitting bends in a musical passage as opposed to a practice session is over my head."
Maybe part of your problem is that your practicing bends mechanically, "outside of a musical context". You should be practicing music, not air pressure variations.
I think Big Blind Ray gave you the best advice for how to practice bends. The only thing I'd add is to suggest you practice playing simple melodies in the first octave, tunes that you already know well: "Happy Birthday," Christmas songs, anthems, etc. Playing them in as many positions as you can figure out will give you lots of different bends to practice in context.
Last Edited by timeistight on Dec 21, 2013 1:11 AM
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SmokeJS
212 posts
Dec 21, 2013
4:26 AM
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timeistight, I akso think the BigBlindRay suggestions are good and the most practical for me. I already practice the low end 2nd position major scale which needs two whole steps bends and will continue to do that plus simple melodies. Hitting the bends isn't the issue instead the problem is nose leakage at higher tempos causing a weak airy bend. So I was trying to determine if others keep their noses closed for all draw notes or for both draw and blow notes in addition to looking to see if others did it naturally or needed a conscious approach like I seem to. A lifetime of breathing in through my nose and out through my mouth is tricky to reverse.
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Mirco
60 posts
Dec 21, 2013
10:12 AM
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I posted this elsewhere, but it bears repeating:
Timeistight mentioned how you should "practice playing simple melodies...in as many positions as you can figure out."
Jon Gindick publishes a book, "Bluesify Your Melody", that does just that for over 90 songs. Christmas songs, children's songs, gospel, patriotic songs. It will really force you to develop those bends.
http://www.amazon.com/Bluesify-Your-Melody-Songbook-Harmonica/dp/0930948300
Last Edited by Mirco on Dec 21, 2013 10:13 AM
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Komuso
262 posts
Dec 21, 2013
6:04 PM
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Gindick's book is great! I picked it up recently to learn some more tunes as well. I like how he does the same tune in multiple positions, which is an excellent way to test your knowledge and playing skills.
fyi HarpNinja also includes a song learning game mode with 30 songs + scales for exactly this purpose.
Some users seem to think they are "too simple" or "children's song" but in my view (and I agree with timeistight & mirco) simple melodies are a great way to learn (and this dovetails with what Iceman is saying about embedded knowledge - a lot of these simple melodies we all know and are also very cross culturally known, or easily taught quickly due to their scale basis).
Plus it's how you play it as well.
Bluesify the melody (as Jon Gindick says!), play it with different feeling.
Play it in different keys, positions and tunings. Until you can do all that, don't tell me they are "too simple";-)
HarpNinja Feature List
/Snip
The Melody Dojo is an advanced game mode for practising and learning Songs, Scales, & Riffs. When the notes scrolling down the screen reach the green “hit zone” you score points by playing the correct note on your own Harmonica. Select “Pause Mode” if you want the game to stop if you miss the note, and it will wait for you to play the correct note before proceeding to the next one. The difficulty modes of Slow, Normal, & Fast control the overall playback speed, which you can also adjust in the dojo via the speed slider. Tunes are organized by Harmonica position and currently include:
Beginner Tunes – No Bends:
Baa Baa Black Sheep, Goodnight Ladies, Jingle Bells, London Bridge, Mary Had a Little Lamb, On Top Of Old Smokey, Ring Around The Rosey, Row Row Row Your Boat, Taps, When The Saints Go Marching In, C Chromatic (for chromatic harp)
1st Position tunes in C:
C Major scale, 3 Blind Mice, Jingle Bells, La Cucaracha, Lili Marlene, Mary Had A Little Lamb, Oh Susanna, Yankee Doodle Dandy
2nd Position tunes in G:
G Mixolydian scale, 12 Bar in G, Frere Jacques, Shuffle in G, Mexican Hat Dance, Twinkle Twinkle
3rd Position in Dm:
Dm Dorian scale, Help You Shuffle, Sakura, St James Infirmary in Dm, You Got To Move
4th Position in Am:
Am Aeolian scale, Shuffle in Am, St James Infirmary in Am, Swing in Am
Tunes are able to be transposed to any other key, and also any other harmonica key and tuning available with HarpNinja. A warning will show if some of the transposed notes are unavailable for the selected transposition.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 21, 2013 6:27 PM
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Mirco
61 posts
Dec 21, 2013
7:03 PM
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In reference to what Komuso said about simple melodies: when I attended the Gussow/Shellist workshop last September, Ronnie pointed out how it can be really effective to weave one of those common melodies into a solo. Even if it's just for a bar or two, it gives the audience something to latch onto.
I definitely need to work on memorizing more of those melodies.
Last Edited by Mirco on Dec 21, 2013 7:04 PM
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The Iceman
1349 posts
Dec 22, 2013
8:00 AM
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There is an interesting approach I use with the beginner students.
I teach them that notes created through bending techniques should quickly stand on their own as notes themselves.
In other words, they learn to create them out of "thin air", hold and sustain them and make them sound as equal as possible to those "given" notes on the diatonic, instead of bending down to them and bending up from them constantly.
This frees them from having the harmonica play them and opens the door to them playing the harmonica and making any type of music they wish appear.
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The Iceman
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