I help run a Blues Jam . I am the only harp player on the committee and i am the new boy as well. All the others are guitar/bass players. For some reason the Jams have been getting louder as time goes by and it has reached the stage where I don't even bother to get up on stage anymore because..well you know the reason. We used to get some good localharp players turning up but now they don't..it is just not a harp friendly jam now. I've brought the subject up at committee meetings and everyone is..Sympatico and considerate,next jam to SRV clones get up and away we go again.(Some of the Commitee are SRV incarnate including the President) I am seriously thinking of hiring a sound meter and getting the decibel reading of the average jammer. Bit of a rant here but i am wondering how do you guys who are involved in jams handle this issue. (Hey this is NZ,i can't just go out and buy an AK47)^
It SOUNDS easy, but controlling volume, even at well run jams, is a challenge. WE handle it by having a kick ass big loud harp amp and mic on stage. Since I help run the jam and am always there, it happens to be my gear - Sonny Jr Avenger and BlowsMeAway wood mic. The amp is either mic'd or line-out'd into the house system and if the harp can't be heard out front the sound guy sees me coming... and then it can! Hearing it on stage is not a problem and all the harp players who come really appreciate having nice gear to play through, and NOT having to bring their own. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
One of the reasons I stopped going to an open mic that I liked was they changed hosts and the new host (although I love his music) ran everything a little too loud. It's a cycle. You play loud, you lose your hearing, you play louder, you lose more hearing.
You almost need a big giant volume indicator on the wall that shows EVERYONE HOW LOUD THEY ARE PLAYING AND MAKES THEM REALIZE THEY NEED TO TURN IT down. The problem is it only takes one yahoo turning his amp up too loud and everyone joins in. Pretty soon all the sound is coming from the amps instead of the PA.
Or, you just start a side business selling hearing aids and hand them out at shows. :)
If somebody is too loud I ask them to turn down. There are a few regulars who are habitual abusers of volume, but nothing too serious. If the level reaches the pain threshold I get pretty direct: Turn that down now or get off the stage! I have a rep for being a bit of a hardass. Fine with me. The jam is a success.
I agree with Greg: Having a good harp rig set up for players to use is a great way to make sure the stage sound is good. Few harp players bring amps any more.
Jams have a stigma about crazy loud volumes. That drives people away. I don't allow it.
It's a disease for real. I think it actually begins with the drummer. Once the band is loosened up some it seems that the drums get louder and everybody follows suit. Of course there are guitarists and keyboard guys who believe they "need" the high volume to get "tone" and be "heard". To me there is nothing further from the truth and it becomes a pissing contest quickly.
Having just been diagnosed with a polyp on a vocal cord, and knowing it's because I allowed my vocal mic to be lower than I needed it to be- I have since quit that band- I am very aware of volume levels. Of course I have killed many a harp reed trying to hear and be heard on a loud stage. I just don't hardly ever bother with local jams partly due to this. It's not uncommon to see 4 guitars and keys on a jam stage here at the same time, all sporting 50 watts, and the harp rig is 5 to 15. What's the point in going to the trouble when the deck is stacked like that? Maybe I'm too old or too tired to fight it any more, I prefer to think I'd rather use my effort in a better setting.
Jolene and I as a duo keep the volume right. When we bring in a drummer and bassist in a few months, our plan is to use the guys who keep it down to reasonable. She has never needed earbusting loud and neither have I. We will use like minded guys.
One joint had a decibel meter for like 2 jams and it (DUH) got broked I think by the jam host!
When a host sees the audience shouting at each other, or getting up and leaving, this ought to be a clue to turn down. But there is no accounting for how these things are run. Literally. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
As a musician you're biggest single asset is your hearing. The sheer amount of partially deaf musicians is staggering and a testament to the fact that so many have a completely moronic ego when it comes to playing music. My advice is walk away from this jam and find another situation. If one doesn't come up then busy yourself with your own musical projects.
Good luck. After many years of trying, I have given up on getting our rehearsals and gigs anywhere near a reasonable level. I have come up with a great solution; musicians earplugs. Unlike usual earplugs they don't kill the sound and make it muffled and dead, they just knock several dozen decibels off. I mic my amp and run it through the PA, so if they wanna play loud, I can match them. They get tinnitus and headaches, I just have fun! ---------- Lucky Lester
Stupidly regulated volume? Actually a certain Texas blues guitarist Stevie Ray Vaughn. And yes we have the same problem in UK, every so called blues/ rock player wants to sound either like Clapton, SRV, Or perhaps now, Joe Bonamassa? It's all cranked up amps, overly saturated by pedals and pedal boards, or the scourge of jam nights, the earpiercing tones of a solid state amp with everything on 10 ! Not to mention the drummer who with a set of cheap bin lid cymbals who has to hit everything just because they can doesn't automatically mean they should! Sometimes it' s like the kid in a candy store syndrome, they all want to show off and it becomes a sonic battlefield! But now and again, you get a good jam but not that often!
Best jam I know is the all acoustic Irish circle on Saturday afternoon at the New Sydney Hotel . If only I liked the music enough to learn about it... ----------
This is the one thing that really pisses me off at jams. It always seems to start off with everyone at acceptable levels,then 3 or 4 songs in, all of a sudden i,m being told the harp can,t be heard.I talk to the bass player who usually says he turned up the volume because the guitarist did....the guitarist says the same about the bassist.Then I get "it,s a lot busier in here now so we had to turn it up to be heard.Just turn up the volume on the harp." That,s fine increasing volume if its getting a bit roudier,but for f#!#k sake lets all turn it up together.....always gets turned up,never seems to get turned down ! It,s the way in how it,s done that pisses me off.
Earplugs for the band? Is that like putting an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff instead of a guard rail at the top? What about the audience???? I see earplugs come out, I'm leaving whether I am on stage or out front. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
God bless the beer garden / outside smoking area, if it sounds worse than fighting cats, I disappear for a calming smoke. Another bugbear is the cliques , who are up all night and preventing newcomers from getting up. One such occasion at a jam, I was asked to play and sing 'help Me ' as nobody else knew all the words etc. I wanted it played reasonably quietly And chilled out. What . Didn't expect was the guitarist and bass player having a conversation while playing. The guitarist being the host and his mate Who never seems to leave the stage for someone else waiting. With that I unlpugged my Mic , turned ny amp off and calmly walked out. And later on when packing up, I had a quiet word or two with the host about his manners and left him uninjured but nonetheless we'll warned not to repeat his little onstage chats!
1. Jam host is responsible for maintaining good volume, a la Rick Davis.
2. On stage, when it is my turn to solo on harmonica, I don't just jump in and start playing at the first beat of the first measure. I will allow a whole 12 bar form to cycle through while turning to the band and giving the universal hand signal to come down in volume, which is catching the eyes of the other musicians, bending at the knee while extending my right hand palm down and motioning downwards.
Most times this works. When they ignore the "come down" signal, I will turn towards the audience, shrug my shoulders and simply walk off the stage. ---------- The Iceman
jbone - Four guitars on stage together?? That is irresponsible jam management by the host. There is a "Two Guitars" rule. Most good guitarists I know refuse to play a jam set with more than two guitars. If there are four guitars plus keys it will be way too loud and the songs will be way too long if everybody solos. Talk about abusing your audience....
Iceman has it right. Signal the band to reduce the volume when your solo comes up. If that doesn't work talk to the host. If that doesn't work don't go back; find a different jam. If there are no other jams in your area you should consider starting one up. Surely there are other players and fans ready for a better jam.
@jbone: yep its insanity, but in a small town with limited options, its either get on with my band or play solo. I have for years created friction and bad feeling harping on about volume. @Iceman: leaving twelve bars before you come in on a solo? Maybe it depends on what type of music you're playing, but in my neck of the woods that would pretty well guarantee to kill a song and make an awkward moment for crowd and band alike. ---------- Lucky Lester
Yeah J you and your other band host have to take the bull by the horns,reminding everybody more than once about noise levels,and common courtesy for other jammers,and audience.This works for awhile,and definately needs repeating.Talk with the owner,because people will walk out on these ego-love fests.
The las vegas blues society jams were harp friendly,and run by a harp player with a sonny junior set right,he was respected and preached dynamics.Now other guys are running it we will see.
One jam I go to is run by an old time conga player,and he tries to keep it down,and yet lets a full horn section play off to the side,tells the crowd please tell me if it is getting to loud.I play thru the vocal mics,and cut,but you eat that mic the shrillness factor,isn't the way I want to sound.Yes and no more than 2 lead guitars,until the end when some gigging pros stop in,and they know the score.
Why does all this loudness happen? BEER! I go to jams all over the place. I'll drive 2 hours to a jam. I enjoy them all. Jams that don't allow drum kits, (hand drum only) or electric guitars are rather subdued. Jams that have a host band are very clickish and can get very loud. Truly open jams are my favorite. No rules, no host band, anything goes. These afairs can get wild. If you don't have a big powerfull amp, don't go! I'll have a blast whether you are there or not. I'm 58 yrs old and can still hear. Ear plugs, sometimes, they are in the harp case.
This is the American way folks, Big, Loud, and Balls to the Wall. 5 watt amps are for bedrooms. JMO...BN
See if they'll let you play some quiet songs - When it's your turn, step up to the mic and say, I'm going to mix it up a little now and play a few "quiet" acoustic songs...were going to keep the volume down for these 2 numbers - scan the audience and ask em - IS THAT OKAY - then smile real big. turn to the band, tell em, "nice and easy" boys lets play the blues :)
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 13, 2013 6:49 PM
The only other thing you might do is work the jam room, schmooze-fest style, in an effort to find a guitarist--one!--who can play blues and feels as you do about the excessive volume levels. Such guitarists do exist. Then get together somewhere else and start a duo.
Actually, I agree with Frank's strategy, too. If you're running the jam, you can do that: create an "unplugged" interval, so to speak. A lower-volume half-set.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Dec 13, 2013 7:49 PM
if ya gotta do it, then into the vocal mic. Harmonica played loud right near the mic is louder than the human voice. ear plugs really let you hear your harmonica better, it transmits through the jaw.. that is also why singers plug their ear when they cannot get enough through the monitor. If it is so loud that the vocal mic does not work.. then you are screwed, and so is any chance of anything that anybody, audience or otherwise, can hear in a small to medium club. it takes some discipline not to turn up, and you gotta trust the sound guy. that is not going to happen at most jams unless that is the social norm to play at reasonable volumes
Maybe we need to go full out passive aggressive. Make a recording of speaker hum, with some sputters in it for good measure, like it's about to catch fire. Get a wireless microphone, a small mixer, and get it plugged into the house system and set it next to an mp3 player somewhere out of sight. When they other amps start getting a little loud, start turning up the buzz. With a little sleight of hand, adjust the volume of the buzz whenever the loudest player adjusts his amp, sort of like a game of 'hotter/colder'. For a little added effect, find a small piece of electronics you don't mind frying. Overload it's circuits so it creates a slight smell of circuits frying (try not to actually start a fire!- maybe one of the circuitry guys can make a recommendation?)
Tape the whole thing. Alternately, only turn the buzz up loud enough for one guy to hear it. The moment he asks for quite, turn it off. Repeat until everyone is convinced he is crazy.
Will it get the volume turned down? Probably not, but at least you can have some fun in the meantime. :)
It always cracks me up to see that 95% of blues jams are hosted in a room that is at best 15'x15' with maybe 50 patrons at most listening, yet the musicians feel the need to play at volumes so loud as if they are playing a stadium event. Have respect for the audiences ears, if no one else's.
nacoran, that would be awesome and not that tough to do. It might even be easier to pull off than actually being heard. I bet a music school student could make an app for it that easily synchs to a wireless system and videos the event and links to a website dedicated to the promotion of quality jam sessions.
Last Edited by Littoral on Dec 14, 2013 7:04 AM
Yes walk away, though that wont change much except save your hearing and lower your frustration level. I try to weed out jams that tend to be a CF and a free for all. Another jam monster is the dude ( usually a guitar player ) who plays as if it were the last time he will play in his life, or he is trying to impress the chick that just walked in. They do all the turn arounds, solos, fills and comps. You might as well be picking your nose. A suggestion, once you get somewhat competent, find a band you like and get along with. Go to their gigs and at some point ask if you can sit in. Many bands have certain days ( sometimes Sundays from my experience )when they SELECT people to come up and sit in. Usually if somebody is too loud they will get told in that type of setting.
i am headed to a jam this evening it will be loud, i am ok with that. i have a bassman amp, i can play as loud as anyone "just ask anyone" lol
what is interesting, i will be jamming with most of the same derelict's, tomorrow evening same people, but we will be outside, in someone back yard, but it will be nowhere near as loud. go figure.
i will be bringing my champ to that, it does not have a line out it will not be mic'd. if i do start to get drowned out i can simply daisy chain it together with another small amp or combine it with the vocal mic ala lester butler.
geez loweeeze, there is also another jam tomorrow afternoon can you really eat to much cotton candy?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica "but i play it anyway"
A jam on Saturday night? Hmmmm... that is a big no-no with some players who gig for a living. From their point of view, Friday and Saturday are reserved for paying gigs for working pros. Sunday through Wednesday are for jams.
Special events are okay - I'm playing at a pro jam tonight for charity; a holiday toy drive. Tomorrow is my regular jam at Ziggies
and if they are working friday or saturday night and are not in the union, that makes them scabs that is even lower class than a Saturday night blues jam ----------
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica "but i play it anyway"
I think that as one ages the sensitivity to noise can increase. There are losses of certain frequencies ie usually those that need to be heard. I know for myself that I have walked out of concerts because I felt the sound levels were way too high and they drowned out the individual performances. Others obviously were not similarly effected. The only jam I regularly attend is a Bluegrass Jam where no amplification is allowed due to close proximity of residential dwellings ca 500m. It is still pretty loud especially when the banjos are in full flight. But everyone is fully conscious of respecting each others space and not stepping on others solos. I know generally for my solos/ leads one could hear a pin drop apart from the double bass accompaniment. ---------- HARPOLDIE’S YOUTUBE
Not all, but the VAST majority of people who claim that volume has some essential role in their "tone" can't play worth a steaming-hot crap.
That percentage includes a HUGE number of harp players who simply don't understand what makes the amplified harp they hear from the Walters, Cotton, etc sound like it does.
If Muddy's entire band was as loud during the LW/Jimmy Rogers days as most "blooz bands" are these days, you wouldn't have been able to hear Walter at all. Not only were the amps all those guys used WAY lower in wattage than modern amps, once you turn a little amp ALL the way up, most of the time the sound compresses so tightly that there's no "cut" and the tone is lost in the mix of other, too-loud instruments.
I had a Valve Jr with a Weber speaker once. WONDERFUL tone with a vintage dynamic stick mic (and a feedback killer pedal) at mid volume.
Took it to a jam. By the time I was able to hear a 2 draw (and I'm a HUGE guy who moves a LOT of air), the tone sounded like Yngwie Malmsteen or some other metal-shred guitarist. Distorted as hell, but thin, compressed and nearly impossible to hear any individual notes clearly.
I once shut up a whole room of disinterested patrons who had grown oblivious to a jam full of over-loud wanna-bes. I was up with the house band who all agreed we needed to rescue the night.
I called "Ain't Nobody's Business", let the band play a chorus, and then sang "One day...", etc at a conversation-level volume.
You could have heard a pin drop after that, and the band and I got a HUGE round of applause.
Most jams in my experience are the domain of those who don't, won't and probably can't, get real gigs. YMMV; this is all IMHO.
That is a good question. I wonder how many people here are members? I am not a member of the AFM I am however a member of the bakery confectionary and tobacco workers union. I used to sell candy cigarette’s to children, that is a notch or Two below a non-union scab Not sure how I sleep at night.
I play music as a hobby I am not a member of a band. I did in fact play two gigs this year One of them was union scale The other I was paid 5 dollars and It included lunch.
The jam sessions are usually on Saturday from 2 till 6 Not sure why it is a night, I would prefer the afternoon myself.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica "but i play it anyway"
Volume at Jams...That's exactly why I bought a SJ Avenger. I do as Greg does. Line out to PA. I put the Avenger on an amp stand and point it at my head so I can hear it, I don't have to crank it all the way up, and let the PA handle the load. Works great. The best way to get volume down appears to be haveing the bar patrons, not the jammers, start complaining that it's too loud. The Monday jam that I go to was getting way out of hand. The patrons complained, the volume came down and, for the most part, has stayed down. I've actually been able to use my Kalamazoo 2 with the line out to the PA.
This was one of the best moments from the jam at Ziggies last night. Young players getting into it. Nic Clark is doing his thing with the 5-watt Memphis Mini amp, lined out to the PA. The band volume was just right.
After the intro set by the host band I always talk from the stage about some of the rules and protocols of the jams. Last night I included something like this:
"I might ask you to turn down. It's not because I don't like your playing or your tone. It's because you are hurting my ears with your volume."
Several people cheered. And it worked. The volume never got out of hand. Even regulars who can be habitual abusers of volume kept it down to a nice level: Loud but not painful or obnoxious. People have to be able to talk in the bar, otherwise it is no fun at all.
Here are conclusions after many years of playing...
Stage volume is usually controlled by the drummer.
(Try having drummer use brushes for a jam tune and see if the volume stays reasonable).
Guitarists are insane...(sometimes they will ignore the stage drum volume in favor of hearing themselves above and beyond all others).
"I need to play loud to get -my sound-". As stated above, this is crap.
Muddy's band...check out drummer...small set, playing quietly, no monitors on stage forcing everyone to play at a volume in which they can hear themselves (doesn't apply to large and/or festival stages).
Muddy's guitar players used small amps. Their sound came from within, not from a combination of big speakers and high wattage.
Harmonica can be heard easily in Muddy's band because the over all volume was low. So much of the classic harmonica sound/tone is based on breathing the harmonica and being heard within the ensemble.
I wanna go to Rick Davis' jam. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Dec 16, 2013 9:55 AM
Totally agree iceman ! The PA systems aren't as powerful as they are now, but it's not about volume, Muddy 's bands usually had the addition of 2 or more guitars including himself, piano. And harp and yet there was a dynamic and respect of each other, but the most important was Muddy's voice! The band always followed his every word , it was all about the song rather than the solo, sure, there was plenty of solos but everyone knows their place in the sound of the band, an unwritten rule, I'm also a guitarist, and I sing, so many jams in UK are too loud, and no-one is really listening to what each other is doing, there is hardly ever any feel or dynamics. The best band I recently went to see was west weston's. Bluesonics, if you get the chance. Go and see this band! If you love Chicago blues played the old way then you will not be disappointed, Steve weston also appears with Mud m Morganfield , and Sweden's premier. Blues band, trickbag. If you are in London, he regularly plays at ain't nothing but ' and occasionally at the railway hotel in Southend -on - sea.
"Muddy's guitar players used small amps. Their sound came from within, not from a combination of big speakers and high wattage."
That may well have been true in the 1950's. If you look at pictures and video footage from the 1960's and 70's Muddy's guitarists are mostly playing big Fender amps.
I saw Muddy's bands many times during the 70's and they all used amps like 4-10 Bassmans, Twin Reverbs, Concerts and Super Reverbs but they didn't play loud and often the volume was low enough you could damned near drive an unmiked acoustic guitar through it and he was really strict about the volume, which unfortunately, seldom happens in open jams.
In most open jams, 80-98% of the guitar players tend to be horrible rhythm players and will all play the dame damned part, often the difference being who was playing loudest of them all and having 4 guitar players who suck at rhythm and dynamics, if you're running the show in an open jam is an automatic recipe for disaster, especially if all 4 are drunk or high.
Here's an example by Jimmy Reed where you have THREE guitar players, each playing a different rhythm part (AKA counter rhythm) with no one playing louder than the other and each part COMPLIMENTS each other, which too often ain't gonna happen in open jams:
If pay close attention to what's going on and ignore the solo, you can hear it happening. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Cutie pie would be fired from my band for that crap. Beers are for after the gig or at a freaking picnic. Of course, class has naught to do with that look.
This is why the average "blooz band" gets paid diddly-crap and helps better bands enjoy the B.S. we hear about "there's no money to be made" gigging. It's because the too-loud jams and tasteless posers make owners disinterested in hiring good bands. Good ones seem to be the needle in the haystack.
She had a decent voice for someone with no dynamics. Too bad she's probably in a classic-crock band playing "Bobby McGhee".
Even if you go out to play and get shutout by a couple of Blues Jrs. It's always a learning experience. That being said.. My simple advice is this. By the time you get up to play. You should know how loud the jam is going to be. That helps a lot. Ask them to bring it down. If they don't. Do yourself a favor and walk off! It will be a one man protest but you might be surprised. Protect your reputation. If you try to compete with a loud band then your playing style goes out the window. No finesse and no nuances. Just another harp player who beats up his instrument and sounds like crap. The next thing. Always bring enough amp. Don't count on the house to mic you. I have a Fender Bassman 93 RI. I never leave home without it!! I have a Mission Chicago 50 shipping this week and I plan to make that my primary amp. I can't say it enough times. Be self sufficient and bring enough amp! That's all I got for now. Except. Hi fellas. I'm new here and I like the site. Thanks for having me!
Geez... Chill, Big Steve. It was a Sunday night blues jam and it was fun, which is pretty much what blues jams are all about. She can drink on stage if she wants to, as long as she doesn't sit the drink on anyone's amp.
I posted the video to show an example of jammers having fun and playing at a reasonable volume. I don't think it is their fault you are having a problem finding paying gigs for your band.
