Rustys26
5 posts
Dec 11, 2013
10:39 PM
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Is this something I should be trying to figure out after only 5 (dedicated) years of playing? I have tried the "straw method" as well as the "reverse bend method" if that is what you want to call them. I just dont get it...but it seems to me that is usually the case until about more like 10 years of playing. Should I be too worried about overblows at this point in my playing?
Cheers
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didjcripey
668 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:12 PM
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Not one of my favourite harp players use them.
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Lucky Lester
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hannes
12 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:44 PM
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I can't tell you if you should or should not concern ourself with overblows, it all depends on the music you want to play. But I think the idea that overblows are only for advanced players is outdated. To me overblows (at least the 4, 5 and 6 hole OBs) are not inherently more difficult than bending, they are just a different technique. Gapping is the one thing that greatly will assist you in learning to overblow. Search youtube for "Joe Spiers adjusting harmonica reeds", he has a great 3 part video series on this which has also been mentioned on this forum. And the way I've learned overblows might be helpful your you too: Blow bend hole 9, than 8, then 7 and then do exactly the same thing on hole 6 - I was really surprised when the OB just popped up. Hope that helps.
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STME58
610 posts
Dec 12, 2013
12:58 AM
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if you don't find your harp is missing the note you want and you are happy with what you are playing, you can do fine without overblows. There are plenty of other things to work on. As @didjcripey implies, there are a lot of great players who never use them.
I have been trying to do some jazz and classical tunes and I frequently find the note I need is not on the harp, so I am learning to overblow. As @hannes says gapping is critical. When the harp is gapped properly the overblows come out with little effort and are quite controllable. If the gap is too big they pop and disappear uncontrollably.
I have also find that supporting the air from the diaphragm, like a brass player would, helps with the overblows. Contrary to the name, is is a finesse thing, not a power thing.
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 12, 2013 12:59 AM
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harpdude61
1926 posts
Dec 12, 2013
5:28 AM
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Rusty...have you gapped properly? I have helped several players get an OB on the first or second try. It is hard to tell you what to do unless I see your embrochure and what you are doing/not doing when you attempt an overblow.
I don't like the straw method because it implies tension. Careful with the blowbend method because some players hinge their jaw closed when blow bending which is really not proper for Bbends or OBs.
Reversing a draw bend works for some, but draws bends can be made with a variety of techniques, not all will work for an OB.
"Popping" an OB is not a good term either. It implies build-up and release of tension. OBs and ODs can be played at the softest, most relaxed level possible.
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The Iceman
1324 posts
Dec 12, 2013
5:31 AM
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Rustys...
As much as human beings seem to seek out some sort of "rule" regarding almost everything (like how many years of playing until learning to OB), this is just a funny mind concept without much basis in reality.
There is no rule and no time line.
I've had fun over the years teaching beginners in different ways to find the most effective techniques.
What is interesting is that, if you don't tell the beginner "this is a hard thing", "this is very advanced technique", "you must play for x years before we get to this", you can get them to do amazing things.
I've gotten beginners to OB within a few months by telling them this is just another bending technique.
My favorite success is getting rank beginners to bend to pitch on holes 1 - 6 within 2,3 weeks of showing them how - never mentioning that this is difficult.
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The Iceman
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hannes
13 posts
Dec 12, 2013
6:11 AM
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@harpdude61: English is not my native language, so I may not have the same associations with certain words as a native speaker. When I said "the overblow popped up" I was just thinking of pop corn - it doesn't seem to struggle, when the moment has come it just goes "pop" :-)
@Iceman: I'm glad to see my views against overblows being an "advanced" technique backed up by a much more experienced harp player than me!
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Grey Owl
421 posts
Dec 12, 2013
6:51 AM
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When I started playing the harmonica again about 4 years ago after a long break, I hadn't heard of overblows but was interested in trying them. They didn't come quickly. I looked at the methods you have tried with no luck.
The method that worked for me eventually was one that didn't work when I first tried it. Playing a blow bend on hole 7 then move down to hole 6 and use the same technique to get the overblow.
However, when you do a blow bend on 7 it is a smooth transition with both the blow reed and draw reed working together to get the bend.
When you try to overblow using the blow bend technique it will feel different and not smooth because as you try to do the blow bend the blow reed will basically stop vibrating and no longer sound. (It is tempting to stop blowing at this point because it feels wrong and doesn't feel like a blow bend anymore) Keep going as if you are still trying to blow bend and the draw reed will start moving and produce the overblow.
Gapping will help a lot but with a bit of luck you might be able to get an overblow on one of your harps without gapping.
I made a video describing the technique which might be helpful.
6 Overblow Video
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Grey Owl YouTube
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HarpNinja
3637 posts
Dec 12, 2013
6:54 AM
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The harp won't overbend unless the action allows for it. It is just like how a harp can be tough to draw bend. The better you get at OB'ing, the less of an issue that can be.
I learned to OB the same time I learned to bend.
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My Website
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nacoran
7414 posts
Dec 12, 2013
7:49 AM
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Someone posted a link to a video a while back that used a different technique than the 'straw' method and it got me a few overblows. Anyone remember a non-straw video a few months back? It was helpful, but I've lost the link.
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Nate
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florida-trader
407 posts
Dec 12, 2013
8:01 AM
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There are lots of guys on this forum who have way more experience overblowing than I do , but here are few thoughts that have helped me along the way.
To me, here is a big key to getting the correct embouchure for overblowing. When you blow bend you are automatically thinking about lowering the pitch. With overblowing you are raising the pitch. To me there is a subtle difference in the embouchure of a 7 blow bend and a 6 overblow. And it is the fact that on one you are lowering the pitch and on the other raising the pitch.
Here’s a simple exercise to illustrate the difference. Whistling. Do a blow whistle and lower the pitch of the note you are “playing”. Observe how your tongue and embouchure changes slightly. Your tongue will drop and increase the size of your oral cavity. Now do a blow whistle and raise the pitch of the note. The change in embouchure is different than when you lowered the pitch. The back of your tongue will rise slightly and make your oral cavity smaller. That is the embouchure you are looking for. It really helps to think in terms of raising the pitch. When you do the whistling drill, first play the 6 blow on your harp and match the pitch of that reed. Then as you blow whistle that note, raise the pitch to the tone of the overblow note. You may have to listen to a few recordings to get it in your brain. Once you know what note you are aiming for it is a lot easier to hit.
The other big thing is the gaps. The gaps have to be small enough to allow the blow reed to choke because in case you don’t know it, the overblow note is coming from the draw reed. If all this is just too foreign to you, take the covers off your harp. Make the gap on the 6 draw pretty narrow. Put your finger over the 6 blow hole and blow into the slot. That will at least help you get the sound in your ear and help you feel it in your mouth. That helps a lot too.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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CarlA
403 posts
Dec 12, 2013
9:01 AM
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To me, having always believed OB to be unnecessary, decided to learn and adopt them in my playing. Since then, my entire style, ability, and musical expression has improved.
IMHO, the more notes available the broader your musical expression can be. A painter that only uses the primary colors and refuses to mix colors and create new ones will imprison themselves in a box, artistically speaking. The same is my belief with the refusal to learn and adopt OB.
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arzajac
1219 posts
Dec 12, 2013
9:41 AM
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"I just dont get it...but it seems to me that is usually the case until about more like 10 years of playing."
That's 100 per cent myth. No matter how much experience or talent you have, it's not all about the player.
Not every harmonica can play overblows. Many can if you close down to gaps to the point where it's mostly unplayable. The more airtight the harp is, and the better the shape of the reeds are, the less you will suffer from having to deal with really tight gaps to get your harp to overblow.
On the player side of things, I'm not saying it's easy and it doesn't take skill/practice to play overbends.
But it's a chicken-and-the-egg situation, because in order to learn the proper embouchure, you need a harp that can cooperate.
Here's something you can do to help shed some light on whether it's you or the harp. Take the covers off the harp and block the 6 blow slot with a finger. Play the 6 draw note with and without a bend. It will blank out when you bend because the blow reed is blocked with your finger.
Exhale. Now you are starting out from the blanked out position. "Feel around" for the embouchure you need to get the draw reed started (the overblow!) To do that change your embouchure like you are going for the bend.
If you've never hit an overblow before, that should give you some inkling on when shape your mouth needs to be in.
Try hitting it without your finger on the blow slot. Adjust the gaps and keep trying. If you just can't hit it, your reeds are probably pretty far from perfectly shaped and your harp is probably not as airtight as it can be. If you address those two problems, I would expect you have more success at hitting the overblow cold and without the coverplates off.
To answer your question, when should someone start to learn overblows?
I don't think a raw beginner should worry about them. Maybe wait until lesson number three when they can hit single sealed notes.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Dec 12, 2013 9:43 AM
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rosco1
31 posts
Dec 12, 2013
5:59 PM
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Everyone's experience is different, I could play the 6 OB soon after Howard explained to me what it was, but it wasn't until I hung out at Augusta in the 90's with all the cats who knew how to set up harps that the other notes worked. Set up was the key for me. After that, playing OB's isn't really the challenge, getting the pitch right and getting them smooth and consistent is where the work comes in.
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Kaining
21 posts
Dec 12, 2013
7:39 PM
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Seeing what year we are in, overbends (not blow, bends) should be learnt from the get go.
Getting a good airtight harp and learning how to breathe properly get you more than half the way. Overbend are tricky 'cause you don't need to be able to pop them out, you need to play them on pitch and make sure they don't sound too different from natural notes.
Rosco couldn't be more right here.
Same for the regular bends actually. One thing that shouldn't be forgotten is that 3 and 10 holes bend are much, much harder to master than any simple overbends. When you get to experiment with double overbends however...
From personal experience, having an airtight harp is really important here. The more airtight it is, the less work needs to be done on the reeds. Some gapping, minimal waxing and voila !
It won't make you a better overbender but it will help you hone your skills by showing you were you can improve.
I bought a full custom made harp this summer, and got some surprises along the way.
Keep in mind that i ain't playing that great, i am just discussing about the process of learning here.
I got that double 10 overdraw to pop a few time with it and what surprised me with that note is that the problem of getting it like any other notes lie more with me not having a perfectly airtight embouchure than with my tongue/lung/breathing ob technique.
With more practice it comes more easily, still not usable anywhere else than in the woodshed. Working on that 10** doesn't make me really works on overbends but on most basic skills that i though were "good enough".
Incidentaly, where i could do 7* and 7** before, i have a harder time now. The reason is as follow: Better embouchure = more airtight player = less air/force needed to get the notes which resulted in 7* and 7** becoming 7** and 7*** and harder time getting a simple 7* because i apply/applied to much pression on the reeds ... I need to learn atm to play with less effort than before if not to play effortlessly.
Easier said than done.
TL; DR
Learning overbends, just like bends or any other techniques from the start create some sort of feedback loop about your skills.
Every is hard at the start.
The better you get at them, the more you realise how little you know and how to get better at everything else. (and how much love you should give to great gear too. There is a reason why most of the best instruments are hand made/tuned)
It forces you to work on your basics skills more than anything else.
In the end however, it's still just skills.
If you don't use them to make music out of it it doesn't matter that much and asking yourself "should i learn overbends ?" Or "should i learn how to warble/tongue block/ect..." isn't the question you should be asking yourself but "what music do i want to play?"
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GMaj7
318 posts
Dec 13, 2013
4:03 AM
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Any discussion on OB/OD wouldn't be complete without at least mentioning the other technique for achieving those notes which is through the single reed bend on a half-valved harp. PT and Brendan have mastered this. I saw PT at the jazz jam at SPAH. He was before and after great OB/OD players as well as chroms and ripped it.
Each technique has advantages and disadvantages but the single reed bend needs to be in the discussion.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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arzajac
1221 posts
Dec 13, 2013
5:17 AM
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Both overblows (overbends) and half-valved (PT Gazell/Brendan Power) bends are single-reed bends. Overbends immobilize the primary reed using airflow while half-valving immobilizes the primary reed using one valve.
Both techniques create a similar sound. Their sound is different than "regular", dual-reed bends. Both single-reed techniques suffer from the same limitations - squeal, pitch control, end technical difficulty.
Is one technique easier than the other? I can't say...
Is it easier to set up a harp for overbends or to half-valve it? I can't say...
(Edited one line for clarity)
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Dec 13, 2013 7:16 AM
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ridge
475 posts
Dec 13, 2013
6:02 AM
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I'd put it this way. I played for years before knowing overblows existed. Then I found out about them and spent a lot of time trying to figure them out. I'm glad I did.
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Ridge's YouTube
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The Iceman
1326 posts
Dec 13, 2013
6:42 AM
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This discussion about OB and beginners lead me to introduce it to another beginning student.
Last night my student came for a lesson. He already inhale bends to pitch and was working on his high end blow bends.
Within 20 minutes, I had him OB'ing on holes 4 and 6 on a harmonica that was set up nicely.
I didn't tell him that it was difficult, that you have to play for x number of years first, etc.
To him, it was just another technique to learn.
In the evolution of diatonic, this reinforces my stance that all these techniques can be taught to a beginner early on.
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The Iceman
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HarpNinja
3638 posts
Dec 13, 2013
6:46 AM
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Harmonicas weren't designed to bend. No style of bending was considered when originally constructed - including draw bends. It was a happy accident that that instrument allowed for this.
Therefore, little consideration went into ensuring they were optimized for that. Nowadays, tolerances and gapping from the factory take some of that into consideration...some harps, stock, are designed with bending in mind, but they are relatively new.
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My Website
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harpwrench
737 posts
Dec 13, 2013
7:43 AM
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IMO it's better to wait until mature breathing/breath control from the diaphragm and resonance control are developed, before exploring overblows. That can come quickly with a good teacher, or it can take years (unfortunately some never do). The problem with rushing it is that the player with undeveloped breath control and/or proper resonance relies on too-tight gapping to make it happen. That can cripple the harmonica for use in other styles, and makes them unreliable. It can also rob the new player of developing resonance control skills, that by default must be learned in order to make a looser harp work.
Blow reeds should not "choke" with airflow to set up the overblow; they should "stall" in the right position to close the slot, when presented with resonance supporting the pitch of the overblow note. That may sound like semantics, but it's not. The straw trick is just that, a parlor trick that presents the reed with mismatched resonance. Direction of airflow is irrelevant except "in" or "out".
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harpwrench
738 posts
Dec 13, 2013
7:48 AM
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Half valving does not immobilize the primary reed as Andrew suggests, it just blocks the other reed from the resonance system.
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Grey Owl
423 posts
Dec 13, 2013
8:19 AM
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I have found overblows very useful and am glad I perservered. For me the usefullness was the ability to play rock and pop songs more than blues. Playing a well known rock song in 2nd position would often have me struggling to find the note when I moved into the middle octave on the harp and overblows have filled that gap.
Half the problem with overblows is that you’re not sure if it’s a lack of technique or a badly set up harp that is causing the problem. It would be easy if you could try a mates harp on which he can overblow. It really was trial and error for me before I got an overblow (I don’t remember adjusting my harp to get one) Once I could play them it was then that I started adjusting my other harps as necessary to be able to do OB’s on them. (Joe Spiers vids were invaluble here)
Setting the reeds up to make overblows achievable is not the only consideration to bear in mind but proper gapping can often help. Other issues making it hard to do overblows are air tightness of the harp ie if the comb/reed plates are not flat then overblows can be tricky.
Here are some shots of one of my harps showing the amount of gapping on the draw and blow reed plates.
There are 2 photos of the draw reed plate where the reeds are on top of the plate and one of the blow reed plate where the reeds recessed down in the plate.
The gaps are about the same for both draw and blow reed in the photos. This is a good starting point. If needed you may wish to close the gaps. For the draw reed gently push the reed down a very small amount with a small screw driver to reduce the visible gap but not down into the slot.
On the blow reed place a small screwdriver in the hole and ease the reed up slightly to reduce the visible gap.
Replace the cover plates and try a normal blow and draw on the hole and if they play nicely without sticking then try the overblow. You may have to repeat this procedure to find the optimum gapping. If you close the gaps too much the reed might not play or else stick when you blow or draw (you may be able to do an overblow with this setup but it will be useless if you cant play normal notes with your usual force) in which case you will have to widen the gaps a bit.
Incidentally instead of screwing the coverplates back on to test the results of your gapping try using those small bulldog clips (similar to the one I’m resting my harp on) to clamp the coverplates temporarily in place.
I should add I’m no expert in this but have found a little tinkering has helped a lot with my harps. Take it slowly and carefully because it is easy to damage the reeds.
Draw plate 1
Draw plate 1a
Blow plate
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Grey Owl YouTube
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Dec 13, 2013 8:24 AM
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arzajac
1222 posts
Dec 13, 2013
8:30 AM
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"Half valving does not immobilize the primary reed as Andrew suggests, it just blocks the other reed from the resonance system."
Joe, you are quite right, thank you! I was making the point that one reed is prevented from vibrating, allowing the other one to sound on its own. In the case of a 6 hole standard tuning, the valve is on the bottom plate so the blow-bend would prevent the draw reed from overblowing, but cause the blow reed to resonate.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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