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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
"blues is black music"
"blues is black music"
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kudzurunner
4428 posts
Dec 11, 2013
9:49 AM
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When I was hanging out with Raoul Bhaneja in Clarksdale last night, he mentioned that a minor race war has broken out on Corey Harris's Facebook page after Harris, who has become a hardcore Rastafarian, posted a one-line status posting, "blues is black music".
This is a perennial issue, as we all know: possessive claims vs. universalist claims on the music. I've explored them at length in my Blues Talk series, which can be found elsewhere on this website. In any case, since I know Harris in a good-acquaintance way--I brought him to Ole Miss as Honorary Chair of a Blues Today symposium back in 2004 and gave him Mr. Satan's "Mother Mojo" mandala as a gift--and since I know and have worked with at least one other musician who contributed to the thread, Bill Sims, Jr., I decided to revisit the issue. Here's what I posted:
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Blues is creole music. It's mixed from its earliest moments. Blues melodies--B. B. King's melismatic singing, those long descending riffs--trace back to the Arab element in Senegambian and Malian music. The "African" element of blues, at least melodically, contains a strong Arab tinge, because Senegal was a trader's crossroads. The genius of the blues, and one central reason its the taproot of most American popular musics, is its infinite adaptability: its ability to absorb influences from all directions and retain an identifiable sound. That's one reason it has conquered the world: it's the "transformer" of world folk musics, the one that can't be contained. For this reason, the assertion, in the year 2013, that "blues is black music" is a kind of strategic fundamentalism, making it hard to account honestly for where the music has been and what it has accomplished. The very word "blues" is a word that black American musicians borrowed from white culture and spun into something new. (There's a white Western miner who talks about having the blues in ROUGHING IT (1872), long before Delta bluesmen were using the term. W. C. Handy, the so-called (and self-styled) "Father of the Blues," was moved to embrace the blues and write "St. Louis Blues," arguably the most popular and influential blues composition of all time, when he watched a black trio in Cleveland, Mississippi drive a roomful of white dancers wild while his own big band took a break. Blues is call and response music: all of us would stipulate that. But important as it has been, and continues to be, as a black community music, it has always sought, and found, and moved, white audiences....
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Dec 11, 2013 9:49 AM
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kudzurunner
4429 posts
Dec 11, 2013
9:49 AM
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....Handy wanted to cross over--as B. B. King, in the late 1960s, wanted to cross over, and as Buddy Guy wanted to cross over. White audiences, and white blues musicians, have been important to a wide range of African American blues performers down through the years. Honeyboy Edwards speaks admiringly and fondly in his autobiography not just of Little Walter, but of Harmonica Frank Floyd, a white Mississippian he traveled and played with. B. B. King and Buddy Guy both speak with great admiration, in their autobiographies, for the white blues players, and rockers, they've shared stages with. Either that praise, that expressed fellowship, is nothing but cynical lies--in which case, shame on them--or it's not. The argument that whites haven't contributed anything original to blues music is silly--although the argument that many white blues singers and players are imitative, stylistically conservative, and tinged (or infected) by the residue of blackface minstrelsy is NOT silly, and it's a claim I've made publicly more than once. A lot of black musical masters have expended a lot of time and care over the past three or four decades teaching white musicians how to play the blues--on bandstands, but also in teaching workshops (Augusta Heritage, Port Townsend). Corey is one such teacher; so is Fernando Jones in Chicago. Either such teachers are cynical profiteers, trying to make a buck while holding back the good stuff for Those Who Count Within the Race, or--as I believe, hope, and trust is the case, they're actually trying to communicate, pass along, something like real musical, cultural, and spiritual knowledge. There's a rich paradox here, isn't there? As for me, the blues almost killed me twice: once when I was playing on the streets of Harlem with Sterling Magee in the summer of 1989, after DO THE RIGHT THING came out, and two guys from Brooklyn said "Why are you here?" and tendered a pretty clear threat. The other time was when I had a heart attack onstage in 2000 while trying to keep up with Jason Ricci--a brilliant and original blues harmonica player. My friend Bill Sims, Jr. knows how troubled I was in the year that followed. He gave me a helpful talking-to at a gig in New Jersey shortly after that. There's a family element in the blues world, a community element--a brotherhood, sisterhood element--that I suspect all of us have experienced and that is, from my perspective, one of the most powerful sources of the blues' magic. Blues people help each other survive and care when we lose one of our own. You can throw race onto that, if you want. I don't.
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The Iceman
1320 posts
Dec 11, 2013
10:32 AM
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It has been agreed within the jazz community that jazz is black music.
Jazz was born out of blues, so what does that make blues music? methinks black music.
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The Iceman
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TheoBurke
527 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:06 AM
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The history of blues as a creole music is informative and sheds a broader light on a contentious subject, but at the end of the day, the blues, like jazz and and r and b and soul and rap/hip hop that evolved from it, is black music. It is true to say that many different kinds of people, from many backgrounds, had experience and musical ideas of their own that contributed to the creation of a musical form that has many varieties, moods and nuances, but it is the experience of black men and women that informs the blues narrative , and it is the innovations of black musicians that made them the designers and creators of the music we mutually love. I am a fierce believer in the idea that the metaphysical nature of a musical style can accomadate those musicians who don't have a cultural/ethnic stake in a music's origins; genuine feeling and fresh, individual expression are the only things , in my book , that are required for someone's music to be "authentic". Blues and jazz and rhythm and blues have credible non-black performers in their histories, and there are a good many non-European musicians performing classical music. As as been discussed in an earlier thread, there is a history of black musicians playing music traditionally thought of as country, ie, white music. In that respect , music belongs to everyone. But the final state is that blues is a black music.
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Ted Burke
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.coM
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Slimharp
67 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:16 AM
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Very well written Adam. Of course it's origins are black.The origins of baseball are white. Does it mean you have to be of it's origin to play same. There is nothing new in the human experience. As with anything, race has little to do with it. You either have it or you dont. I know of people of all races that CAN play blues, and I know same that play at blues and that suck. IMHO - Mike Bloomfield of Jewish ( Hebrew ) decent. He had and could play the blues. It's the feeling, not the DNA.
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rbeetsme
1447 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:20 AM
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My ancestors are Dutch. Maybe I should be playing Polkas.
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walterharp
1251 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:26 AM
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Blues was MOSTLY black music
now blues is MOSTLY middle aged white guy music, in the US and Europe at least.
I just went to the Memphis blues awards photos.
Performers 4 white women, 3 black women, 10 black men, 22 white men.. mostly not very young people. The one crowd shot had over a hundred people in it only a few were obviously not white... maybe the wrong venue, but I get the feeling that is a pretty good representation of who is interested across the US, maybe skewed toward people who have money to travel though
Last Edited by walterharp on Dec 11, 2013 12:15 PM
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blueswannabe
381 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:50 AM
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Blues is like breaking bread amongst all people. It is universal in many ways yet it is also distinct. It is the dialectic, like in Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit. However, I would love to see more African Americans carry this torch as is carried by James Cotton, Billy Branch, Sugar Blue, Professor Harp, Terry Harmonica Bean,and others whose names escape me right now. Billy Branch has been associated with Blues in the School Prgrams which introduces blues music to mostly african american school children. I would love to see more of that.If "Blues is Black Music," I would like to see more African Americans play the blues.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Dec 11, 2013 11:54 AM
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groyster1
2484 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:56 AM
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blues music is for all to enjoy....John R WLAC Nashville is solely responsible for my love of blues...he was Caucasian....
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atty1chgo
789 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:56 AM
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"I am a fierce believer in the idea that the metaphysical nature of a musical style can accomadate [sic] those musicians who don't have a cultural/ethnic stake in a music's origins;"
The idea that "those musicians who don't have a cultural/ethnic stake in a music's origins" - i.e. anyone but African Americans - must be "accommodated" through metaphysics, and that only African Americans can TRULY "inform the blues narrative", is perhaps the silliest thing that I have ever read on this blog.
Regarding 'inform[ing] the blues narrative" - among and to which listeners? The dwindling number of black Americans who listen to blues music?
As between musical genres, white and other ethnic blues musicians have surpassed the like achievements of, for instance in the area of soul music, the "blue-eyed soul" practitioners in that kind of music. The achievements of white and other ethnic musicians in the realm of jazz music is also considerable. A visionary in jazz as well as world music such as the late Joe Zawinul being reduced to an abstract understanding of jazz music due to his not having a "cultural/ethnic stake in a music's origins" is absurd.
Taking the premise further -
Ry Cooder contributed to, and presented to a larger audience the music of Cuba through the Buena Vista Social Club project. Paul Simon brought us the music of Africa through his album Graceland. To argue that these musicians merely had a "metaphysical" connection that was somehow accommodated in order to produce this fine music is, quite frankly, a bit insulting, and difficult to justify with facts.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Dec 11, 2013 11:58 AM
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blueswannabe
382 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:11 PM
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Here is a quote from Ronald Reagan: "In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. Perhaps we need some outside, universal threat to make us recognize this common bond. I occasionally think how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world"
"alien threat" to the blues community = pop music
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mr_so&so
771 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:15 PM
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I think it is a useful exercise for every blues musician to grapple with this issue. It brings a deeper understanding and, perhaps, experience of the blues.
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blueswannabe
383 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:25 PM
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Mr. so and so, I would agree. I have achieved a greater understanding and reverance for the music and the culture from these discussions. However, I would also like to see something tangible and productive come out of it, other than the understanding (which is in itself positive because I think the lack of understading has led to issues like the above).
Adam, you bring out very intersting points regarding origins. And along those lines, Who can lay claim to language or to the number system? For instance, the number "0" came from India. The Summerians had the first alphabet. Your origns analysis is interseting because, somewhere down the line we are all related. There was one strand of DNA that led to us. WHere do you want to place your focus, on the tree or on the forrest? Both are equally valid. Both equally true.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Dec 11, 2013 12:32 PM
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Seven.Oh.Three.
252 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:35 PM
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I saw his post! Currently there's over a hundred responses to his original five word post. As I read through the responses I thought "I wonder what Adam would have to say about this and these folks responding". So good to actually hear your thoughts and as always they're fairly spot on, clearly calculated and very articulate/insightful. Bravo Professor!
7.o.3.
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TheoBurke
528 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:37 PM
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atty1chg: I suspect you've misread my point. I argue that blues IS black music for the obvious reasons that it is black musicians who created the music with their musical innovation and narratively from their experience as black people . Blues is black music. It's an art form created by and defined by black Americans. What I argue is the metaphysical aspect of the art--"... of or relating to things that are thought to exist but that cannot be seen..."(Merriam Webster Online)-- is that blues conveys a set of generally recognizable emotional situations and states of being that a non-black listener can relate to on a gut level and , that being the case, the music can accommodate and accept the testimonials of non-black musicians as legitimate and real and as genuine contributions to a the music. It's a legitimate point to make and the word "accommodate" is used rather precisely, I think. Insulting? I have a suspicion you were looking for something to rant over. My idea here is for you and I to cease this part the discussion. Your objections are a tad overwrought.
Ted Burke
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.coM
Last Edited by TheoBurke on Dec 11, 2013 12:50 PM
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LIP RIPPER
717 posts
Dec 11, 2013
12:57 PM
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All I can say is that if you are white and drive through Highway Park on the south side of Lake Placid you'll be the only white person in there and I'll be damned if you'll here the blues anywhere. Mostly a welfare culture of waste shouting broken English and listening to Rap. A culture that doesn't work, has no ambition to; wears more expensive clothes, and in some cases drive newer cars than I do. Do they own the Blues? No. Do we own anything? No. We possess things while we breath, that's all.
Last Edited by LIP RIPPER on Dec 11, 2013 1:04 PM
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kudzurunner
4430 posts
Dec 11, 2013
1:01 PM
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You're exactly right, mr so&so. Every musician, of ever color and nationality, would be well advised to grapple with the issue.
atty1chgo: Although many blues players and fans, black and white, share your belief that "a dwindling number of black Americans...listen to blues music," the truth is that many, many black Americans listen to the blues, buy and share blues recordings, attend blues shows, and support blues radio. I have a Ph.D. candidate writing a dissertation about this precise subject, and it is going to blow people's minds. He spent the entire summer knocking on doors in the Mississippi and Arkansas Delta, asking folks to fill out a questionnaire about their musical preferences. He did not say that he was interested in blues. What he found was a huge and surprising majority of black southern respondents who listed blues as one of their first two or three preferences (and there was a list of about a dozen different musics, including jazz, rap, r&b, soul, gospel, rock, and country). This was true even among a 30-and-under cohort who most people presume to be rap fans. He did a lot of supplemental research--discovering, for example, that there are something like 15 or 20 all-day Saturday blues shows on black radio in the Deep South (meaning at least three or four consecutive hours of programming).
His conclusion is that the blues is just as popular now among black people in the Deep South, per capita, as it was during the heyday of the blues back in the middle part of the century.
But here's the catch: although this black audience calls the music "blues" at every available opportunity, Living Blues magazine and David Whiteis in his new book call it "soul blues."
It's blues. It's music that black people call blues and that DJs call blues. It's music made by black people for black audiences. It's music that speaks to contemporary variations of the same concerns that blues has always spoken to, especially male-female relationships. It's the music of the post-plantation South, and it's popular in certain places, such as Chicago, that have lots of migrants from those southern regions. It's music that is frequently passed from hand to hand, illegally duplicated, so that modest sales figures frequently lead people to underestimate the size of the audience.
So yes: in this specific sense, blues is black music. White singers and players essentially NEVER sing or play this kind of blues, and that is worth noting--although nobody ever does. What's interesting is that the folks who argue that "blues is black music" are almost never talking about THIS blues, the music of Ms. Jody, Marvin Sease, Johnny Taylor, Theodis Ealey. Most of them don't pay any attention to this precinct of the blues. Bobby Rush they may know about, because he's crossed over.
The real scandal is that the Blues Music Awards essentially ghettoizes this music, all but ignoring it--pretending its merely "soul blues," one curious but minor offshoot of the contemporary blues scene. But it's not! It's black people making blues for black audiences who care deeply about the music.
Here's another key point: artists who play THIS kind of blues never insist that blues is black music--because their kind of blues clearly IS black music and that point doesn't need stating. And they don't complain that white folks are stealing the blues. Because white folks aren't covering their kind of blues.
The problems arise, instead, when black blues artists seeking mainstream success--bookings on the blues cruises and at the big festivals--realize that they are competing against white artists for the favors of almost entirely white audiences. They feel as though white folks are running the show--dominating the blues award judging, the International Blues Challenge. The fans, DJs, booking agencies, record labels: white people everywhere!
If they relinquished their desire for the love and financial support of white audiences, if they actually chose to make race-music--black music for black audiences--they'd have....
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kudzurunner
4431 posts
Dec 11, 2013
1:04 PM
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less to complain about. It's a curious paradox, in any case.
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blueswannabe
384 posts
Dec 11, 2013
1:37 PM
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Adam, what would you call the blues of Little Walter, Big Walter, James Cotton, SBWI, SBWII, Junior Wells, Carey Bell?
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Dec 11, 2013 1:38 PM
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atty1chgo
790 posts
Dec 11, 2013
1:50 PM
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@ TheoBurke - "...blues conveys a set of generally recognizable emotional situations and states of being that a non-black listener can relate to on a gut level and, that being the case, the music can accommodate and accept the testimonials of non-black musicians as legitimate and real and as genuine contributions to a the music."
Expanding on previously narrow word choices is always appreciated, and I thank you for your clarification. To so narrow the manner in which people absorb and enjoy the blues is speculative. Some people are drawn to the music (sans lyrics) itself in which case the cultural/ethnic identity may be a minor part of the attraction. And for those younger listeners who don't know much of the history behind the lyrics and music, there may be little or no situational message at all that is relied upon to form their like or dislike of what they are hearing.
You would still insist that only blacks can inform the blues narrative. I don't believe that this point is necessarily always accurate. But taking your point above further, the reverse implication is also that cultural/ethnic natives of the music do not need metaphysical connections to appreciate the music?
When you made the statement, you were talking about any "musical style", not solely limited to the blues. I merely pointed out that the premise as applied to jazz music, having its "true" essence be confined to a narrow cultural/ethnic category of ownership is difficult to justify anymore due to its expansion of expression, which does not rely on lyrics as much in many instances and is such a universal language,
And please refrain from the urge to direct when and if I might respond to one of your statements. This isn't a courtroom. :)
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Dec 11, 2013 1:53 PM
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atty1chgo
791 posts
Dec 11, 2013
2:05 PM
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@ kudzurunner - Great points all around. I learn something every time you write, and it is appreciated.
I guess an overriding point being made is that poverty (bootleg copying as well as light support at live venues) is somehow largely responsible for the perception of a lack of popularity for "soul blues, but that really it is popular. Given that this audience is older and by and large has more disposable income, I guess the question would be why?
The younger community has elected to invest their money in more contemporary styles of music. I guess it's too bad that music has to be such a business.
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BigSteveNJ
27 posts
Dec 11, 2013
2:21 PM
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Louis Armstrong was a descendant of slaves. He thought Bix Beiderbecke and Jack Teagarden were great musicians. Was he a sucker, an "Uncle Tom" or just someone who let chops and feeling transcend all this horseshit about race?
I've been broke, homeless, on my deathbed and discriminated against because of my color and my physical disabilities. I have every right to have and play the blues, ethnicity be damned to hell.
Blues is HUMAN music. We would all do well to be "blind boys" in that regard.
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Shaganappi
64 posts
Dec 11, 2013
2:25 PM
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Color/Origin/Race/Culture (and the other un-mentionable items) can be of interest to discuss (particularly as we have a knowledgeable moderator) but no matter how much I read and hear, I still find it stupid to attach any ownership to music. It smacks of someone just trying to stir up a pot to get publicity or similar. People like publicity, even bad (cheap shot) publicity.
The more we discuss it in this manner, it generally only makes the issue worse per either riots or the extreme of 9/11 being the height of culture wars. Not to say that I am colorblind, but all day I deal with all sorts of people of all shades/origins, etc. per outsiders and other fellow workers. Seldom if EVER, do the issues arise except where a chip on the shoulder is involved.
I get so sick of this. Maybe I am just getting old and cranky. I know I am getting old and cranky. Culture is just a way of delineating you guys and us guys. The sooner culture is buried, the better off the world will be.
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TheoBurke
529 posts
Dec 11, 2013
2:35 PM
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atty1chgo:This isn't a courtroom, but it is a forum, which means give and take. Instructions for me to resist the urge to respond when I think I'm misrepresented goes against the spirit of forums in general. I respond thusly:
"You would still insist that only blacks can inform the blues narrative"
I made no such claim, I insisted on it not at all. I wrote, (to quote the same passage again):"blues conveys a set of generally recognizable emotional situations and states of being that a non-black listener can relate to on a gut level and, that being the case, the music can accommodate and accept the testimonials of non-black musicians as legitimate and real and as genuine contributions to a the music."
To paraphrase, blues is a black art form because it's originators created and defined the musical and narrative bedrock on which the music is based. It is defined by black musicians, from their experience as black Americans. Even so, blues music has at its core a set of emotional modes that, though, defined by the experience of by black Americans, has within it what we can call a universally understood expressions of pain, delight, tragedy, joy, et al, that nearly everyone who has a pulse can relate to and feel at a gut level. Though black in origin, the blues is a form that has been adopted and adapted by non blacks who have added their own "genuine contributions" to the music. By implication , that includes real and authentic informing of the narrative line. A man of your apparent intelligence and discerning wit ought to have been able to grasp that from my original statement. That is why I suspect you're being just a little obtuse here.
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Ted Burke
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.coM
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The Iceman
1321 posts
Dec 11, 2013
2:56 PM
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It has been stated that the only original art form to come out of the USA is jazz, created by black people.
As stated above, jazz came out of blues.
So, black people are responsible for the only original art form to come out of the USA.
(sez a lot about us white folk)
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The Iceman
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walterharp
1252 posts
Dec 11, 2013
3:00 PM
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Interesting that the current blues tradition has diverged into at least one of two paths.
One major influence on the way modern blues is played, at least the kind that fills large concert halls and blues festivals, is the amplified feedbacky guitar approach developed in what was the acid and hard rock of the 1960's. That was when Hendrix, Clapton, etc took the next step and was much more of a cross racial part of the development of the blues as we know it today
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kudzurunner
4432 posts
Dec 11, 2013
3:30 PM
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@blueswannabe: Those blues artists, Af-Am harp players all, are ones that the mass of contemporary black folks in the Deep South, especially those 50 and under, would not recognize by name and have no particular interest in. (A few might recognize Little Walter, because he had that famous hit in 1952.) None of them show up in the questionnaires filled out by my doctoral student's respondents in the Delta. They're old-fashioned stuff.
The names that do show up, apart from the soul-blues artists I mention, include B. B. King, Bobby "Blue" Bland, and Jimmy Reed. I bought a best of Jimmy Reed CD, off-brand, from a rack in a Qwik Stop in Holly Springs, MS a few weeks back.
Here are a couple of representative tracks from the kind of music I'm talking about--the kind that contemporary Deep South black folk call "blues". Be sure to check out the "60 and over dance contest" in the second video:
This video is from the "Memphis Tri-State Blues Festival" in 2011. A very large event, and the attendees would have been 99.9% black.
Johnny Taylor remains a huge name in Mississippi. Here he's singing straight ahead blues:
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TetonJohn
176 posts
Dec 11, 2013
3:34 PM
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I once asked Muddy Waters (circa mid-'70s) why there weren't any black people at the show (maybe I said black kids; there were mostly white kids at the show).
I had sneaked downstairs/"backstage" at My Father's Place (NY), euphoric from the show and innocently perplexed by why anyone would not want to partake of such a wonderful experience.
Sorry, this is anti-climactic:
He said he didn't want to talk about that!
(I was pretty sh*t-faced, so I'm sure he didn't want to talk about much with me).
So, I'm gonna follow his lead and not talk about it.
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LIP RIPPER
719 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:02 PM
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Big Steve, you hit the nail on the head. But as long as people want to bring up this black white bullshit it will remain.
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Slimharp
68 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:12 PM
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The above videos seem to me to represent R & B or what you are calling soul blues. Interesting what different cultures call blues, which in this case is a far departure from what I call blues. This may be indicative of the lack of interest I have seen ( or maybe financial ) due to little to no black audiences at the last 100 blues shows and gigs I have been to. Maybe today we are talking apples and oranges, or could it be the equivalent of me listening to folk or cowboy music.
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Komuso
250 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:17 PM
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I was outside Rosedale in '94 by the riverside (not joking) in a park having lunch in my van listening to a bunch of locals having a BBQ and dancing to the most god awful crap on a boom box and all I could think was "Robert Johnson would be spinning in his grave".
Tastes change I guess. Granted it was a small sample size. But then I was in Baton Rouge having a drink in a bar and a guy comes in and starts talking to the barman/owner and when he said "I'm selling this new thing called a karaoke machine..." I knew it was really all over. But then I went to Tabby Thomas's joint that night and it was ok!
There's always going to be people who say "Blues is black music" or "Fado is portuguese music" or "Flamenco is spanish music" or "hip hop is bs music" (ha!) or whatever...at some level it always is, at another it's gone way beyond that now.
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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blueswannabe
385 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:20 PM
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Adam, thanks, I just learned something new. I had no knowledge that a distinction existed. I hope your student publishes his results.
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Ugly Bones Ryan
15 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:31 PM
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I heard of Harris through Martin S's movie but don't understand the controversy. Blues IS black music but that doesn't mean other people can't feel it. That's like saying Behtoven is deaf music and only deaf white people can feel it. Yeah, technically a lot of it is white deaf guy music but that doesn't mean other people can't feel it. Blues is for everybody but it started as a way to sing away the opression they had faced. Harris is going to say that blues belongs to the black people because as a Rasta he probably condones racial pride and so that Black people don't forget about it.
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LSC
555 posts
Dec 11, 2013
4:47 PM
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Okay my tuppence worth. The subject has certainly been hashed over many times but when somebody like Corey Harris makes such a flat out statement it is always going to start the discourse yet again. Not necessarily a bad thing. The problem, if "problem" is the right word, is that such a simple four word statement is open to all kinds of interpretations none of which is going to be absolutely right or absolutely wrong.
For the first time in many years I've been privileged to play with black blues men and to discover a lot of black blues musicians in this area that I wasn't aware of. Some really great cats. In the context of this discussion there are a couple of things which have struck me.
One is the voices. There are very very few people who are not black that sound like black folks. There are phrases, accents, and textures that to my ear come from a certain culture and community that sure ain't white. And if one allows that blues is fundamentally vocal music then to say "Blues is black music," has to be a pretty correct statement.
The other is performance, particularly the inclusion of improvisational dance moves. Again specific things that do not come from any other racial community that I know of.
When it comes to instrumental performance, that is another matter. The forms are laid out. The tones and phrasing are laid out and there are plenty of players from all over the world who study the originators and can produce their styles very competently. But beyond that there is in fact a universal human-ness of emotion that is expressed regardless of race. Heart break, poverty, oppression, joy, humour, and soul are not the exclusive domain of any particular race.
Ultimately this idea of ownership is bogus in my view. Those of us who play this music and even the non-players who nonetheless love and support blues are in fact merely custodians, caretakers of what has been given to us by those who came before and whatever Great Spirit that gifts us with the ability to appreciate and/or play this art form which moves us in so many ways.
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LSC
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LSC
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gene
1140 posts
Dec 11, 2013
6:44 PM
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“Is blues black music?” is a question that keeps popping up. The discussions go on and on and on. The problem is that the question is so ambiguous in meaning that it has no meaning, thus can’t be answered. The question should be broken down to several questions in separate threads. Then, those questions could be answered much more easily, and (IMO) we would see that the questions, for the most part, are academic and do not warrant all the emotion attached to them.
Here are the questions (that I could think of) that the main question, “Is blues black music?”, could be broken down to.
Did blacks invent the blues?
Did blacks popularize blues?
Is blues primarily enjoyed by blacks?
Is blues primarily performed by blacks?
Is it really blues if not performed by blacks?
Do you have no moral right to enjoy blues if you’re not black?
Are blacks better at playing blues?
Would black blues artists prefer that only blacks buy their products?
Last Edited by gene on Dec 11, 2013 6:51 PM
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Mirco
50 posts
Dec 11, 2013
7:43 PM
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Right on, gene. Before we can really have any sort of deep discussion, we need to agree on what we're actually discussing. The original question-- "Is blues black music?"-- is wide open to different interpretations. What are we actually asking?
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wolfkristiansen
254 posts
Dec 11, 2013
8:54 PM
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"Blues is black music". Long time forum members know my thoughts on this subject, which, for most of my life, have been close to what Corey Harris asserts. I won't try to convince anyone here and now, because there is no absolute right or wrong on this issue.
There are, and always will be, eternal disagreements about this. I've provoked a few in the past.
My Love Affair With the Blues
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/743166.htm
What Happened to the Blues?
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/4608902.htm
Thanks, Adam, for not being afraid to bring this topic up again. It's always simmering under the surface in any blues forum; usually avoided because it's akin to discussions about religion and politics-- dangerous territory. It's especially like religious discussions-- no amount of argument or logic is going to persuade anyone to join the other camp. It is an important discussion, nevertheless.
Forgetting for a minute whether or not "blues is black music", I want share with all forum members what I know about myself, musically: This white, Copenhagen-born immigrant (me) has gravitated towards black music all his life, for reasons that even he cannot understand. It is so real I never question or doubt it.
I was immersed in a deep European (white) music background as I grew up. Opera singing father, classical piano playing mother. Two sisters taking piano lessons (Mozart, Bach, etc.), one sister taking classical guitar.
And yet, when I heard "Dem Bones" aka "Dem Dry Bones" aka "Ezekiel Connected Dem Dry Bones" in music class in grade four, my eyes and ears opened wide. The melody and rhythm, and even lyrics, caught my ears like no white song did. I listened and learned. Late in the year, whenever Miss Smith said, "what song do you want to sing today?", my hand was up, I shouted "Dry Bones", or "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot", before the teacher even gestured to me. Black spirituals, black composers, and originally, black performers.
The other songs in that small Canadian elementary school class were English folk like "What Shall We Do With the Drunken Sailor?" or American pop like "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". The other kids wanted to sing these.
Something about black music caught my ears at an early age, without encouragement from family or friends, and contrary to my musical upbringing at home. This is a repeat from an earlier post-- when I was 12, I told my parents, "I don't know what's wrong with me, but I like this Negro music better". (Don't jump on me, I'm quoting my innocent self from 1960). It was a mystery to my parents as much as it was to me.
So... I guess what I'm saying is that, blackness in music has always caught my ears from the moment I began to appreciate music. I know many will say there is no such thing as "blackness" in music. Let me put it another way-- when I hear vocal or instrumental music I really, really like, and I chase it down, I usually find that the composer and/or performer is black.
Of all the black music that has grabbed me over the years, the kind that has grabbed me by the throat and has never let go is blues. I go further and say, without hesitation, that the blues music that grabs me, like no other, is black blues, old or new. I prefer black blues. That doesn't mean blues is black music, but it does mean that, a century after it was born, and a half century after it was assimilated by whites, I prefer to hear blues performed by its originators. It's ironic, because I'm a white person playing blues, like 95 percent of us in this forum.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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wolfkristiansen
255 posts
Dec 11, 2013
8:55 PM
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I've not talked about the other aspect of early black blues-- lyrics that touch on a life of oppression. Blacks were severely oppressed in earlier centuries in America, and that condition certainly informed many blues lyrics. No one would seriously argue to the contrary. But oppression knows no race. Anyone, of any race, can be oppressed and might be moved to sing about it. Modern blues lyrics don't touch on this theme as much as they did at the beginning of the 20th century. They often touch on that universal theme that has engendered blues songs forever-- the tension between male and female. Practically all of us, in this forum, black, white, purple or green, have been hurt by this, and have something to say about it. We've all had the blues, oui?
I'd love if the few blacks in the forum were brave enough to voice their thoughts on all of this, but understand if you don't. It's a scary, sometimes ugly topic. A few ugly remarks have already appeared.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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didjcripey
667 posts
Dec 11, 2013
9:51 PM
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I can relate to that Wolf.
I remember as a kid growing up in suburban working class Australia hearing Harry Belafonte singing Banana boat and being taken by it, as well as some calypso song about a yellow bird in music class.
When I first heard Howlin Wolf, it didn't even occur to me he was black, but it really grabbed me.
'White' music always seemed to me a little uptight and self conscious; there seemed to be a groove and ryhthm in black music that instantly appealed.
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Lucky Lester
Last Edited by didjcripey on Dec 11, 2013 9:59 PM
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nacoran
7411 posts
Dec 11, 2013
10:09 PM
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It's interesting what aspects of our being we choose to identify ourselves by. We could identify ourselves as poor or rich, or educated or uneducated or happy or depressed. Who decides which boxes you have to check?
There are some songs I'd feel uncomfortable singing because of my race. There are some songs I'd feel uncomfortable hearing from other people too...
edit- now why did that post twice?
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Nate
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Last Edited by nacoran on Dec 12, 2013 7:50 AM
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wolfkristiansen
256 posts
Dec 11, 2013
11:11 PM
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Nacoran-- I may be misunderstanding you. In case your post is partly a reaction to my long post--
I did not choose to identify myself with black music. I did not choose to identify myself with blues. Both chose me and I happily succumbed, once I got past my childhood puzzlement about different tastes for different folks.
Back in the day, when I still sang on stage, I did not sing songs that were clearly inappropriate-- no "Cotton Fields Back Home" for me. But so many blues songs are universal; i.e. there are plenty of race neutral topics to sing about.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
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The Iceman
1325 posts
Dec 12, 2013
5:36 AM
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God help us get over "political correctness".
I'm from Detroit. My musical experience over 20 years there was that blacks had a direct to the heart connection to the music and how they play it - jazz, blues and funk.
In Detroit, I would much rather play with black musicians (and to a black audience) than white - for the most part - based on my real life experiences.
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The Iceman
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jbone
1440 posts
Dec 12, 2013
5:49 AM
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I was born the last of six children and life was destined to start out humble anyway. Father died when I was four, and this put us squarely in poverty.
I was called trash at an early age.
I discovered those monumental talents and artists at age 6 or 7, BB, Muddy, Wolf, Slim, Bobby Blue, a host of others via am radio. I was imprinted with a musical form at an early age that was sometimes my only comfort.
To me it was natural to echo that which gave me such solace and was deeply ingrained in my psyche.
As I became a young- and older- adult, I have done my best to emulate my heroes, not as a way to make a living or even impress the girls, it has always run deeper than that with me. Those men and women who filled the air waves when I was a child, and hurt, and lost, I owed them, and I still owe them. Hence, when I have the opportunity to play that music which has always been such a part of me and a comfort to me, I try and let folks know where it came from, who originated a given song, where i got my gift.
At this point in my life, and pretty much always, I have spent more than I've made if you count up the hours spent as a student, the stuff bought to amplify and play well, voice lessons and doctor visits, gas, travel, rooms in places like Clarksdale and Zachary Louisiana. The cost has never been an issue. If we had the time and money we would go. Wherever and whenever. I want to promote and foster the music. I'd rather get 2 bucks in the tip jar and turn on 3 people than turn on nobody and go home with 50.
I adopted this form as a labor of love a long time ago and it has helped bring me to adulthood and it has always challenged me to do more and to raise my personal bar.
Either we all own a concept or none of us do. either way, for me it's a bit late to turn aside from my avocation and labor of love. All due respect to persons who may or may not agree. My house is a small humble place that is my home, but blues music is a palace and castle for my psyche and soul.
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5F6H
1715 posts
Dec 12, 2013
7:08 AM
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@Jbone - Nice post.
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colman
279 posts
Dec 12, 2013
7:58 AM
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Blues has always been a black peoples language,and learning the language can be any human too speak,sing a song.when some one starts to push black only with the blues,then they have a personal problem...this music is world wide now.be glad it`s here to be sung.My self ,i have been into black gospel,doo wop,R&B`r&r since i was a young kid[7]when i heard Chicago blues [12]i`ve been singing playing harp and guitar since.i`ts part of my language now too.it`s not a thing of race it`s all SOUL,from a human respect...
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nacoran
7415 posts
Dec 12, 2013
8:12 AM
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Wolf, no I was responding to the thread in general. In literary theory, you've got your reader responders, your Deconstructionists (one of my favorites) and your Marxist readers (not all Marxists) who believe everything is about class distinction. When you've been exposed to Marxist theory (of the literary variety, not the political) you tend to see groups based on wealth rather than color. I've got friends who, for instance, never even thought about going to college, or owning a home, or even living in the same place for more than one lease, who rented appliances and took out payday loans, who went to bed, well, maybe not starving, but wishing there was a little more to eat, who got arrested for petty stuff and didn't have a good lawyer. I lived in a suburb, so most of them were white.
I've lived in a flop motel, not had health insurance, maxed out credit cards buying food and medicine, driven (still drive) a car that's older than some forum members. I had the advantages of parents who were teachers, a grandparent who helped pay for college, and $8 sneakers that had holes in them that we couldn't afford to replace, slept in my car and had no address.
I like blues. When you are poor, everything looks like it's about money. When you are discriminated against, part of the protection mechanism is to form a group and guard it from outsiders. That strategy has it's benefits, but it also has it's pitfalls. I think culture works best when it spreads back and forth. You don't hear many Americans complaining that other countries are stealing McDonalds. How your perceive whether you are a victim or not can change whether you view your cultural appropriation as cultural appropriation, diffusion or even cultural imperialism. The problem is, if you spend too much time in the victim mode, whether it's because you are poor, or black, or female or whatever, is you start to see everything in the worst light.
Now, another question... is blues old people music?
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kudzurunner
4433 posts
Dec 12, 2013
8:37 AM
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Nice posts all around, everybody. I'm particularly moved by what jbone writes, and wolf.
I think these particular issues will continue to dwell with us, irk us, maybe even piss us off, whoever we are. Gene is exactly right to discern that the statement "blues is black music" is in fact a provocation to a range of somewhat different questions. I should note that the prevailing direction of academic musicology these days is towards what is called anti-essentialism--which is to say, skepticism about phrases such as "blues is black music." The most sophisticated such study is by an African American musicologist called Ronald Radano and is entitled LYING UP A NATION: RACE AND BLACK MUSIC. Looking at black American music from its early 17th century origins through the mid-20th century, Radano argues that the "black music" has always been as much about the ideas that white listeners and intellectuals had about the music as it was about the actual musical practices of black people. In fact, he argues that the musical practices of black people were partly shaped by the need to respond to those white ideas.
It's a bold and difficult book. I reviewed it, and another book, Scott Saul's FREEDOM IS, FREEDOM AIN'T, for a journal called American Literature back in 2006. Saul's basic point is that black jazzmen did two seemingly contradictory things with their music: they made jazz the repository of racial meanings--they inscribed their blackness, so to speak, into the music--but they simultaneously made the music a medium for the idea that race (which is to say, blackness and whiteness) is a fiction. The truly hip, in other words, manage to live and reconcile the contradiction. They tried to help us see that race was simultaneously everything and nothing.
Translated to my own life: I'm white, my wife is black, my kid is whatever he is (or wants to be), and we're all just people, no big deal--except that American history has made it a very big deal, and I'd be a fool not to know about all THAT, too, and teach it to my son at the appropriate moment. Even though, of course, he's just Shaun David Gussow, not somebody who can be sold off to the highest bidder. That stuff doesn't go on any more, even in Mississippi, Home of the Blues. Sorta makes you wanna laugh and cry at the same time, doesn't it?
Here's a link to the review. They'll ask you to pay $15, unless you have access to an academic library that has a subscription to Duke University Press journals:
http://americanliterature.dukejournals.org/content/78/2/400.citation
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Dec 12, 2013 8:43 AM
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Frank
3469 posts
Dec 12, 2013
9:08 AM
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Is blues black music? Can't answer that at this moment...but from my experience -
There seems to be a pertinent difference when at a show and I watch a white performer do blues, then watch a black performer do blues...
As great as the white blues performer may have been - the black blues performer always leaves me feeling like I witnessed the real deal :)
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Slimharp
71 posts
Dec 12, 2013
9:52 AM
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" the black blues performer always leaves me feeling like I witnessed the real deal :)" I respect your view Frank. Contrary to that I feel if a performance is honest, emotes feeling,it does not matter what color you are. I am closing in on 65. I have seen most of the well known black blues artist. About 85% of the time it was a good experience. The other 15% of the time I felt I was ripped off, or the person was just not "on" that day. Color has nothing to do with it. I saw Jimmy Reed ( one of my favs ) 4 times, two of which he was so drunk he couldnt find the the mic and his wife had to sing the lyrics behind him so he could remember. I saw Hendricks 3 times. Once he was pissed off, did 3 songs, threw his guitar down and said into the mic " this is a drag " and walked off stage. I had the honor to jam with Muddy Waters. One of the most humble, respectful, gentle, genuine people I have ever met. For me it's about honesty and continuing the art, no color lines involved.
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Frank
3470 posts
Dec 12, 2013
10:12 AM
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Of course - there are variables, but I'm a believer through my experience watching blues performers over the past 20 something years that the blacks are the REAL DEAL :)
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