Mirco
43 posts
Dec 09, 2013
9:17 PM
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Last month, I went to a jam for beginning blues players. This jam did not usually have harp players, but they welcomed me. I played my songs on a vocal mic. It went over pretty well.
When I left, the jam host invited me to bring my own mic and cable next time. So tonight, I showed up with my rig. When I was called up, they plugged me into the guitar amp and I spent the first few minutes of the song adjusting volume and trying to fight feedback, until I eventually gave up and played with the mic totally off. No one could hear me, but I had fun. The organizer suggested that, next time, I bring my own amp so that I can have complete control over the sound, instead of working with something that's already been set for the guitars.
Now, I think that maybe I should have just played through the vocal mic (like last month). What do you think? Do you ever bring your own mic to a jam?
This is why I love going to the jams run by harp players. It's usually set up where I can be heard. Frustrating...
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Kingley
3308 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:03 PM
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Most of the time in a jam situation where it's only playing a few numbers, I'll just use a vocal mic. Sometimes I'll take an SM57 and use that. If it's a dedicated blues jam and I know I'll end up playing quite a lot then I might take an amp. Generally though it's easier to just play through the vocal mic, because most of the time I'll be singing a few numbers too and it keeps things simple. The questions I get asked most at jam sessions by the host/PA engineer are "How do you want the mic set up?, Do you want reverb on it?, Do you want it in the monitors?," My answer is always the same "I don't care. Just make sure people can hear it please."
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 09, 2013 10:04 PM
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Rick Davis
2758 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:08 PM
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Mirco, do you own a good harp amp suitable for jams? If not, it's best to just step up to the vocal mic on a mic stand and blow. Don't cup the mic; leave it on the stand.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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Mirco
44 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:09 PM
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@Kingley:
That's funny. Thanks for your response.
I think a vocal mic is probably the way to go. Why complicate things?
Maybe I'll get a vocal mic specifically to practice for these situations. I really know nothing about vocal mics. The Fireball is generally the vocal mic that harp players gravitate towards, right?
Last Edited by Mirco on Dec 09, 2013 10:15 PM
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Mirco
45 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:14 PM
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@Rick Davis:
I was using a vintage Turner mic. On its own, it's a good mic, but I've never played it with a band. Generally, the blues jam I attend is hosted by a harp player, so I use that setup.
Got the message about using the vocal mic. Any reason that I shouldn't cup the mic?
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Rick Davis
2759 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:39 PM
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Mirco, don't grab a vocal mic on stage and cup it and start wailing. They likely have it trimmed in the PA for vocals, and you will cause immediate and savage feedback (to say nothing of ill will.)
Just use the vocal mics they already have on stage. Do a Sonny Boy thing; play acoustically with lots of cool wah effects. You will have a much better jam experience if you don't have to fight your equipment.
If you have a mic and suitable amp at home you can practice and be prepared. If not, you should just take the simplest route and play through an existing vocal mic. Jamming can be stressful enough without having to wrangle with unfamiliar gear.
I speak from long experience here, having hosted a jam in Denver for four years. Been down this road a time or two...
I always have one or more cool harp amps for players to use, but still new players sometimes insist on trying something someone suggested online, like a mic or pedal straight into the PA. It often is a trainwreck because the newbie assumes it will be plug-n-play with immediate killer tone, because that is what they have been told. It's not. After several minutes of twiddling the knobs it still sounds bad and the newbie has a negative jam experience. Nobody wants that.
It is hard to beat the sound of a harp played well a couple of inches from a Shure SM58, running into the PA using a regular vocal mix. If you are unsure, you should do that.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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BigSteveNJ
26 posts
Dec 09, 2013
10:52 PM
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Rick said:
"It is hard to beat the sound of a harp played well a couple of inches from a Shure SM58, running into the PA using a regular vocal mix. If you are unsure, you should do that."
Right on. Remember that NOTHING, no amp, mic, pedal, EQ, brand of harp... NOTHING will improve bad acoustic tone. If you have good acoustic harp tone, you can (in the right environment) have good amplified tone.
If you have at least a basic grasp of how to achieve good acoustic tone, standing in front of a 58 and really working your tone-shaping tools (hands, embouchre, etc) will sound fantastic.
I've been in the room with a person who insists on playing harps that are SO blown out of tune that he sounds like he's in a minor key to the band's major key on every song. This noise is pumped through a poorly cupped hot vocal mic with plenty of shrill and sloppy playing to go with it. Ouch is not the word.
I've gotten compliments on my tone playing through an SM58 on some Chinese-made Kay "Chicago Blues" harps. Yes, the ones that come in a seven-key set for around $40. Of course, I spent years playing the streets of a major college town with no amplification at all. Helps to have nothing more to generate tone with than what the Lord gave you. :)
Good luck!
Last Edited by BigSteveNJ on Dec 09, 2013 10:55 PM
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Joe_L
2415 posts
Dec 09, 2013
11:26 PM
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Dare I ask, which jam was this? What I bring depends on the jam and who is hosting.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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atty1chgo
788 posts
Dec 10, 2013
1:13 AM
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I use an Electrovoice RE-10 almost exclusively now when playing, but especially when plugging in to a PA for a blues jam. It fits into my bag easily, and does not take a tremendous amount of adjustment at the board once plugged in. It is Low Impedance (Low Z) which of course eliminates the need for any transformer to be attached.
It's getting to the point lately at jams where the area to set up your own amp up is small, and the competition with the guitar amp of everyone and his brother-in-law on stage is fierce, where it is just less of a hassle to bring your own mic on stage, let the sound guy (if any) know what you are doing, and let 'er rip.
The EV RE-10 has such a great clear sound through a PA. There won't be any imaginary "nirvana" muddy overly distorted "Chicago sound" tone being heard unless you make it yourself. And you won't have any problem being heard alongside all of the guitar slingers.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Dec 10, 2013 1:14 AM
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Barley Nectar
211 posts
Dec 10, 2013
8:22 AM
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I have played jams almost exclusively for 40 yrs. Was in a band once. PITA!. I always take my own rig. Mic, amp or two, delay, so on. You must match the gear to the room and the suspected volume levels. Yes, you can go head to head with a Twin and a LP with the right amp.
As far as stage amps go. Look at the knobs with your little flashlight that is in your harp case. Kill the gain channel that the shreder was using. Set the master V at max. Set clean channel V at zero. Set the clean chnl treble at 3, mids at 4, bass at 7-8 and bring you volume up till the amp starts to feed with you mic volume dimed. If you can't get the V past 2 roll the master V back some. Now step away from the amp and to the SIDE and give her a blow. Woofy FB is too much bass. Bright FB is too much treble. Mids to taste. No cut? Bring the treble up a little.
I use the same settings with a PA guy and a stage mic on those occasions like when doing a few unplanned songs with a local band. If your not to sure about all this, go to a buddies house and mess around with his amp. You can also try several amps at the music store in there demo room.
As for stage mics, you can grab um and cup um, just play real easy till you hear where your at. Mics on stands are cool also as stated above.
Harp in moniters will cause FB if you are too loud in them. I need some harp in the moniters and so do the other players. Without this, it's hard to interact. Good luck at the Jam...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Dec 10, 2013 8:28 AM
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Greg Heumann
2504 posts
Dec 10, 2013
8:22 AM
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The number 1 cause for feedback at a jam - the jam is a lot louder than your living room and your amp just isn't loud enough to be heard. You keep turning it up in a desperate attempt to hear yourself but it just feeds back.
If you CAN play through someone else's' guitar amp, its going to be feedbacky too. But this is the perfect reason to own the new Squeal Killer anti-feedback pedal. I have tried it - and if I had to plug into a guitar player's amp, that is exactly what I would do. It works.
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Rick Davis
2760 posts
Dec 10, 2013
8:30 AM
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There are lots of solutions, but here is the deal: At a busy jam you will have about 20 minutes for your set. You don't want to waste several minutes futzing with your gear. Those of us who have been doing this for years can get rigged up for good tone in a few seconds. That is not the case with a newbie, and it will just increase the already considerable anxiety some new players feel on stage.
Woodshedding at home includes getting your rig sorted. A new player trying something entirely new at a jam is asking for train wreckage.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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LSC
551 posts
Dec 10, 2013
8:40 AM
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+1 on sticking with just the provided vocal mic, hopefully an SM58 which is usually the case.
Even when there is a harp player there with a rig it can sometimes be better just to step to the mic stand. I learned this by accepting offers to use someones rig that sucked. Things like being handed a Shure 520DX through some breed of "custom" harp amp where everything was way too hot making the mic volume control uber sensitive. Then there are the rigs with more pedals than The Edge and the sound is bouncing around like a full swing on a golf ball in a tile bathroom.
I was also once invited by the harp playing jam host to use my own mic through another "custom" harp amp. I couldn't find a standby switch so I simply turned the channel volume down before removing the other guys mic and plugging in mine. Didn't want the big crackle thump that always occurs and can screw up a speaker.
The amp owner rushed over and got all in my grill for messing with his amp. I, somewhat, patiently explained that I was trying to protect his amp. He then proceeded to lecture me on not overplaying and not stepping on toes. I just replied, "Yeah, I think I can manage that."
Now days I just politely decline and step to an available vocal mic. Acoustic and amplified harp are different animals, rather like acoustic and electric guitars. They share similar techniques but require a different approach.
Having said all that, if I was fortunate enough to attend one of Rick's jams I'd probably ask if I could play a different one of his amps for each song, like a kid in a candy shop.
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LSC
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LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Dec 10, 2013 8:43 AM
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Rick Davis
2761 posts
Dec 10, 2013
8:51 AM
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"Having said all that, if I was fortunate enough to attend one of Rick's jams I'd probably ask if I could play a different one of his amps for each song, like a kid in a candy shop."
LOL. LSC, it would be a pleasure.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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blueswannabe
378 posts
Dec 10, 2013
9:27 AM
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I have played an SM58 at a jam. Just tell the sound guy, if there is one, to roll off the highs. Even that might not be necessary. Also, I have used a harp attack pedal and a DI box and brought a JT 30 mic with a CM element. This is a quick an easy set up (with little fuss). iF you brought no equipment other than your harps, an SM 57 or 58 directly into a PA is perfectly fine. I don't find it useful or worth it to bring in your own amp for 1-3 songs.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Dec 10, 2013 9:28 AM
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Kingley
3309 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:03 AM
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A Harp Attack and DI box into the PA is a decent amped sound and I sometimes use that too. For me the main thing is to keep things moving as quickly as possible at a jam. Audiences and jam players get bored very quickly with the players that take ages to set up or endlessly noodle while trying to get "their" sound. That's one of the main reasons I'll play direct into a vocal mic. Plus I like the sound I get doing playing that way and even though I'm not the greatest harp player around, I have enough confidence in my ability to play decently enough to be able to get a good sound from a vocal mic.
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Rick Davis
2762 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:06 AM
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Kingley nails it. ^^^^^^^^
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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MJ
651 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:12 AM
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I have played through the vocal mic at jams and was happy. I usually bring my own amp setup with me and set it up in advance. I can set it up in a mater of a few minutes. I always offer it to any other harp player who happens to be there. Both ways work for me.
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HawkeyeKane
2201 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:26 AM
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I don't attend jams very often. Maybe once a month. When I do, I usually just bring my Kalamazoo and line it into the PA. Just like MJ, I set it up before the jam starts and let any other attending harp players use it. But the drawback on that is that there's not always another harp player. And eventually, if I happen to want to leave early, my rig is now set up in the midst of numerous jammers onstage, and without many breaks in between numbers, it's really hard to get up there and tear down my rig in a respectful and non-awkward manner. So sometimes, I'll just bring a tube preamp and run directly to the PA. Much easier to tear out in a hurry that way. Or sometimes a guitarist will have brought in a good amp for harp, and I'll respectfully ask if I can blow through it. I've played a lot of excellent amps by way of this manuever.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Dec 10, 2013 10:29 AM
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Rick Davis
2763 posts
Dec 10, 2013
10:28 AM
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Here is a photo from a recent jam at Ziggies.
Doc Brown is hosting this jam. He has his back to the audience because he is showing two newbie guitar players how to play "Help Me." They caught on pretty well and the set was actually a blast. That is me on the left, with the Memphis Mini amp on a chair.
I don't want this thread to discourage new players from playing at jams. A good host will go to great lengths to help you have a positive experience.
But just as we ask guitar players to be tuned up BEFORE they get on stage, we ask harp players to be quick in setting up their rigs. Work out the details at home, not at the show.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Dec 10, 2013 10:29 AM
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jpmcbride
19 posts
Dec 10, 2013
11:36 AM
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It really just depends on the jam and the host.
If the host band has a harp player, then often there will be a rig onstage for you to use.
If not, then see what the other hap players are doing and follow their lead. If the other harp players are using the vocal mic, then do the same. At least until you've been to the jam enough times to establish yourself and feel comfortable talking to the host about bringing an amp.
Above all else, don't waste stage time and don't be a PITA. Ever get onstage and have to wait 5 minutes or more for a guitar player to mess with his pedal board? Don't be that guy!
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
Last Edited by jpmcbride on Dec 10, 2013 11:41 AM
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MagicPauley57
144 posts
Dec 10, 2013
11:57 AM
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There's not much in the way of harp led jams, but if I go to my local pub on jam night, I normally take my amp unless I'm working early the next day, and have the normal channel set for harp, and the bright for guitar.
The most common problem is noisy drummers, and guitarists who want to crank up the distortion, and wail away over everything.
The last rock n Roll jam I went to, I tried harp but I couldn't hear it over 3 guitars , a keyboard, and a sax,it was just get everyone up and make a racket! not good, then I was told that the harp should go into a PA and not an amp ?
On the rockabilly scene, you get the odd harp player, but they always use a vocal Mic and then moan when they can't get a overdriven blues tone, it seems they need to do some research?
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Mirco
47 posts
Dec 10, 2013
3:54 PM
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Rick Davis said: “Just use the vocal mics they already have on stage.” I think this is great advice. Simplicity is best. Maybe me bring my mic or amp is just complicating things.
Joe, this was a Beginner’s Blues Jam held at the Poor House Bistro. The folks from King Amplification sponsor it. I was encouraged to bring my own mic. They control all the amps and sound levels, so I was told to plug it into an amp that was set up for a guitar player. As the song progressed, the jam host was fiddling with different controls to try to correct the feedback. The people there were nothing less than supportive, but I don’t think they are used to harp players showing up.
Good info from Barley Nectar on setting up an amp and from blueswannabe about instructions for the sound guy, but I actually don’t have control over any of that. Those were all controlled by the jam host and house band.
I guess I was just asking for trouble. To be fair, they had no idea I was coming or what sort of mic I was bringing. They were set up for what they expected: guitar players. Afterwards, they told me that I could bring my own amp next time, but I think this might complicate things more. Using the vocal mic is probably what I’ll try next time.
Ultimately, a learning experience. I’m happy that I had the sense to sit out when it wasn’t working and allow the rest of the players to have a good time. I got some practice standing onstage and keeping time. Hell, I needed that, anyway.
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Frank
3465 posts
Dec 10, 2013
4:11 PM
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Oh, I thought I read that "you" spent the first few minutes of the song adjusting volume and trying to fight feedback until you eventually gave up...The jam host mighta been Fu&^in with ya cause turnin down the V should do the trick - :)
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The Iceman
1318 posts
Dec 10, 2013
4:29 PM
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I have a small bullet type mic, 6 ft high impedance cable, small digital delay (w/volume control) and a small high impedance cable with a DI box. Mic to 6 ft cord, to digital delay, out delay w/small cord into DI.
I will unplug the stage mic and plug the low impedance jack into my DI box. I then tell the sound man to take all effects out of the channel and set Low and Mids to 12:00 and turn the Treble down to 9:00.
Now I have control of my volume and can add a touch of delay to my sound, as well as a mic that I like.
As long as the sound man is capable, it works great.
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The Iceman
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LSC
552 posts
Dec 10, 2013
5:06 PM
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"I’m happy that I had the sense to sit out when it wasn’t working and allow the rest of the players to have a good time."
Right there you're ahead of more than half the players out there of any stripe.
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LSC
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TBird
35 posts
Dec 12, 2013
6:52 AM
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I just have to say that, as a newer player who has never played electric harp, this thread has been super encouraging. As if anyone really needs evidence that playing through a vocal mic can be really cool... here is one of my favorite players doing just that:
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Rick Davis
2769 posts
Dec 12, 2013
7:51 AM
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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