kudzurunner
4333 posts
Oct 28, 2013
6:53 PM
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Here's an intimate, one-on-one lesson in blues soloing from B. B. King. I'm amazed that such a video exists. Enjoy and share.
Here's more:
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 28, 2013 7:01 PM
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Jehosaphat
578 posts
Oct 28, 2013
9:21 PM
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Thanks Kudzu..awesome to watch,hear the master.
I think that is the first time i have ever seen B B play a chord..!
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Hondo
254 posts
Oct 28, 2013
11:02 PM
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I heard- I bend it to what I hear and feel.
What I didn't hear was- The first note must be played precisely on the 1/2 step bend, the second note played clean and be able to go straight to the full step bend on the third note.
Why the difference in how harp players see it? Educate me.
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Kingley
3235 posts
Oct 28, 2013
11:17 PM
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Hondo - Simply put, it's because many harp players are complete nerds and don't realise that playing the blues is all about feeling first and technique second. Playing with feeling is the benchmark of any good blues player. Having good technique doesn't mean a thing if you don't know what to do with it. BB King understands that and that's why he doesn't worry about bending exactly to pitch every time. He gets that it's the shaping of those and that being slightly sharp or flat on a note can create tension and give the music a certain feeling. You have to feel the music in your heart and soul not just in your head to make it work when playing blues.
I love hearing BB play without a band like he does in these videos. I could sit in a room all day long and listen to BB King play the blues unaccompanied.
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 28, 2013 11:23 PM
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Honkin On Bobo
1162 posts
Oct 29, 2013
6:19 AM
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Brilliantly said Kingley, brilliantly said.
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scojo
432 posts
Oct 29, 2013
9:01 AM
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I think that Kingley is right, but that the opposite is also true... way too many "players" who think it's all about feel but have absolutely no idea what they are doing musically or technically. It's one of the things that leads to harmonica being marginalized by other musicians; the idea that you just "feel it, bro" and don't have to actually play notes that are musically congruent with what is being played by everyone else. I think both feeling and skills are equally important.
It's not either-or. Kingley's not wrong. The "The first note must be played precisely on the 1/2 step bend" etc. stuff is useless if you don't feel, on an intuitive level at least, WHY it's important to play notes that sound good.
Last Edited by scojo on Oct 29, 2013 9:01 AM
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HarpNinja
3560 posts
Oct 29, 2013
9:09 AM
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Playing music is exactly like communicating through writing or voice.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Oct 29, 2013 9:09 AM
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HarpNinja
3561 posts
Oct 29, 2013
9:13 AM
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"Simply put, it's because many harp players are complete nerds and don't realise that playing the blues is all about feeling first and technique second."
I very much disagree with this as blues appears to have a very strict set of expectations, in terms of harmonica, and this requires MANY technical aspects that are endlessly discussed even on just this forum.
If blues was just communicating what you felt, most the blues enthusiasts on this site would have little to talk about or critique. Just revisit my post about playing reverse slaps on the bottom of the harp. I was bombarded with a list of technical aspects to play real blues harmonica.
If blues was just played by feel, the only reply would have been that I shouldn't worry about it. If I can't feel it, then I shouldn't be playing it.
The more I think about it, blues is extremely limited compared to other genres in what is considered "right". There are TONS of rules to play blues harmonica and there is definitely the willingness to label the playing as either right or wrong.
There is much less of this in other genres where even the specific harmony of the song is vague and debated - take Miss You and Freebird for example.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Oct 29, 2013 9:18 AM
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HarpNinja
3562 posts
Oct 29, 2013
9:17 AM
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Please don't read the above as an attack on blues, because it isn't. I am not judging blues harmonica and its implied rules as good or bad. It is just a niche that requires adherence to a lot of guidelines to be considered good and/or authentic.
Jazz and rock, by contrast, allow for much more flexibility in how a message is musically shared.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Rgsccr
208 posts
Oct 29, 2013
10:43 AM
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A bit off topic (forgive me), but I think my favorite BB King song is "Help the Poor." My band plays it and it sounds super cool played in third position with a C harp - we play it in D minor, same as BB on the recording I have.
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HarpNinja
3563 posts
Oct 29, 2013
10:45 AM
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Sweet 16 is my favorite...this is my #2...
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Kingley
3236 posts
Oct 29, 2013
10:54 AM
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Scojo - Yes I agree with you it's not an either or thing at all.
HarpNinja - Mike I really can't see what you disagree with. I didn't say you don't need technique. I merely made the point that if you have no feeling for the music then all the technique in the world is useless. The reason why I say "playing the blues is all about feeling first and technique second" is because if you listen to blues music and especially harmonica then it's obvious to anyone. Sonny Boy Williamson could kill you with one note. There's not much technique there, but there's a whole lot of feeling for sure. Howlin' Wolf is another great example. He wasn't by any means technically proficient on the harp by todays standards,but his playing grabs you and demands your attention every time. It's so emotionally intense. Of course a person needs to have at least a basic grounding in the music and has to know some of the techniques of the instrument. But and it's a very big but! A person who little technique but has feeling and can convey that musically is much more interesting to listen too than a technical wizard who has no soul to their music.. That's why I say " playing the blues is all about feeling first and technique second".
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 29, 2013 11:16 AM
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JInx
608 posts
Oct 29, 2013
11:05 AM
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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HarpNinja
3564 posts
Oct 29, 2013
11:50 AM
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I would argue, civilly, that you need equal parts of both.
I have a 6mo. old daughter. She only reacts emotionally, and has a lot she wants us to understand, but not the capacity to articulate it. It is much harder to understand what she is communicating than my 3yo. daughter...but it is even easier to understand what my 5yo. son is communicating. I never understand my adult wife, though.
While my youngest can communicate some basic raw emotion that is generally pretty low level, my oldest child, who has the most vocabulary, best grammar, best inflection, and best story-telling skills, can articulate and communicate at a much deeper level some very complex stuff.
My point is, if you are playing music, you are communicating and for others to really understand you, you have to be smart about it.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Oct 29, 2013 12:14 PM
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HarpNinja
3565 posts
Oct 29, 2013
1:14 PM
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Recently, somewhere, I heard someone talk about a psychological concept and how people have different abilities.
It was like some people can articulate/teach well, but have limited ability to apply and some others could do all sorts of stuff but not communicate it well to others...Anyone think this sounds familiar?
At any rate, I think a lot of really talented musicians do awesome stuff but don't really know/articulate well why it works...they just do it. They have a lot of cool things they can technically execute, but maybe can't teach it well.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Frank
3134 posts
Oct 29, 2013
1:38 PM
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To the extent that I lacked technique - I would be met with difficulty expressing all that I was feeling.
As my technique multiplied, matured and became second nature - the more I was able to express my feelings naturally with clarity, confidence and conviction...
Personally I have never heard a player pull of Sonny II or the Wolfs chops convincingly who didn't also have command of technique.
Kim or Jason and other Masters - can connect deeply with their audience because they have proficient technique to draw upon at will...
In my experience - feelings are expressed through technique...
Last Edited by Frank on Oct 29, 2013 1:59 PM
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walterharp
1204 posts
Oct 29, 2013
1:59 PM
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and getting the amazing tones and semi tones with bends etc that BB King shows in these videos takes technique as well.. he admits he does not actually think about most of it, but he has been doing it for so long the basic technique is second nature... just like Frank says.
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scojo
433 posts
Oct 29, 2013
3:01 PM
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I would add this to the conversation: all the things mentioned here don't just apply to blues. Even classical music should be conveyed with emotion, or it won't have the impact that it should. And even campfire songs can be made more interesting if played both with excellent technique and well-conveyed emotion.
HarpNinja, I imagine you're not sleeping much these days. :)
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MP
2975 posts
Oct 29, 2013
7:26 PM
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Awesome! now that, is blues!
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i still have a little Hohner stock for reed replacement in three common keys.
when these are gone i'm out of the biz.
click MP for my e-mail address and more info.
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Michael Rubin
816 posts
Oct 30, 2013
6:10 AM
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Rice Miller is the most technically advanced blues harp player ever, imo. Wolf is highly advanced technically.
When discussing bending with my students I often explain that some players intentionally play lower or higher for inflection and feeling while others get a strobe tuner and a very in tune piano and enter the cave, spending hours a day working on their bends in order to perform one song at SPAH perfectly on pitch to get the golf claps.
Then I explain that REASONABLY on pitch bends is VERY important. I think every player should regularly use a $1 to $20 tuner and a $30 pawn shop keyboard to sing pitches and match pitches in their bends.
I also explain if you want to sound like Charlie McCoy, enter the cave.
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oldwailer
1988 posts
Oct 30, 2013
6:40 AM
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That was great--from a real master--I notice that BB is as good at NOT playing as he is at playing--he brings his fingers down to mute the strings between phrases to create a moment of silence that punctuates the feel of the music--a big part of the artistry of his distinctive style is knowing when to shut up for a second now and then. . .
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Oldwailer's Web Site
Send a tip!
"Too Pretty for the Blues."
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Hondo
255 posts
Oct 30, 2013
7:26 AM
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What a great discussion. This is what makes a forum work well IMO.
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barbequebob
2367 posts
Oct 30, 2013
11:10 AM
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Emotion and some technique, but many of you are leaving something out that's VERY important, and that's the groove and feel, and understanding how it works in any genre. In blues, much like every black music genre, many latin and even country music genres, groove is very important and so whenever one plays or sings, there is a groove that you have to fit into AKA the pocket, wheras with rock,as lead player, being in the pocket isn't anywhere near as important, but once you get outside of rock, you can easily sound completely out of your element. Many of these things are subtle, but EXTREMELY important, and the subtle stuff is often times the most difficult thing to learn because it ain't exactly smacking you upside the head with a baseball bat kind ob obvious.
BB comes from the Blind Lemon Jefferson influence where you don't play anything under the vocals with the guitar and so he often didn't back himself up on guitar.
Learning how to use space is something that's also EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to learn, but often times players who aren't blues players by trade often never learn and space allows tension to build so that even as little as one note can release it with ease. It's also a lesson in underplaying and overplaying is far too easy to do.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Joe_L
2383 posts
Oct 30, 2013
4:39 PM
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'The more I think about it, blues is extremely limited compared to other genres in what is considered "right". There are TONS of rules to play blues harmonica and there is definitely the willingness to label the playing as either right or wrong.'
All musical genres have rules.
First of all, nobody gets rich playing Blues. To many bandleaders carrying a harp players as a sideman is kind of a luxury that takes money away from more necessary band members.
Second, most of the people that I know that are bandleaders in blues bands know what they want to hear. If they hire you and you don't do what they expect, you aren't doing your job. If they want Little Walter and you can't deliver, there is usually someone else that might be a better fit.
Third, harp playing band leaders are pretty common and compete for higher quality sidemen. The better players are going to go with the guys who pay more or who they like playing with.
I don't think there are hard and fast rules. If there were, guys like Billy Branch or Sugar Blue wouldn't get gigs and be accepted. Depending on the audience, they mix all sorts of music into their sets and aren't considered purely traditional players. They both seem to be surviving off music. When Jason Ricci was touring, he seemed to have a lot of gigs. He's not a super traditional blues player.
Finally, thinking that feeling is everything and technique is completely unimportant is ludicrous. When asking older Blues players for advice, there feedback was pretty consistent, "play what fits".
If you don't know what fits the groove, you've got a problem. I asked James Cotton about that one time, he told me that I had to listen. When I asked who to listen to. He said, "you should listen to everyone."
A person cant just say, "I'm going to be a harmonica player", learn a bunch of scales, play that shit over a blues groove and expect to be accepted in the blues community, even if the notes are the right ones. It's got to feel right. As BBQ Bob has said many times, it's got to fit in the pocket.
Really finally this time, people who play blues, real blues tend to be passionate about it. Most really solid players live and breathe the genre. It's something that they actually like. They don't consider it limiting or confining. When it clicks, there are few better feelings in life.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Oct 30, 2013 4:40 PM
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CWinter
82 posts
Oct 30, 2013
7:13 PM
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"Anybody can play the blues. 'Yes, anybody can do most anything, but would you like it?'"
- B.B. King
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kudzurunner
4340 posts
Oct 30, 2013
7:21 PM
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Beautifully put, Joe. I completely agree.
I also agree with Michael Rubin's puckish, Zen-like summary. There's some blues logic going on in there.
You go to the woodshed to create the technique you need to express the feelings you have (and that are freshly evoked by your new-found technical mastery), and to be able to groove with good players NOT at the edge of your technical abilities, but well within your technical abilities. Relaxation can only come if you've got more than enough technique for the mission at hand. If you're working right at the edge of your technical abilities, you almost certainly won't have enough brain cells left to pay attention to the other musicians. So you practice hard to create a margin-area beyond your main region of competence. That margin gives you the luxury--which is a necessity--of relaxing.
You also retreat to the woodshed in order to remove distractions and get deeply into all aspects of the music--not just the technical aspects, but really listening to the notes, thinking about what notes work where, sorting between sorta-OK and much-better.
I've never found the blues form limiting. Every solo is a journey and nothing is more exciting than pushing your technical abilities hard and finding yourself in a place, melodically speaking, that you've never been before. In one song on my forthcoming Blues Doctors album, I played a lick that ended up having me hit a major third over the IV chord. Not the right note! But I kept my cool, dug down into my melodic imagination, and came up with a follow-up lick that hit the third a SECOND time and extended it in a way that made both uses of the "wrong" note sound intentional. That was a new one. But I had Miles Davis's saying--something about "There are no wrong notes"--in the back of my head, and I kept my cool. Presence of mind is important. BBQ Bob is always talking about grooving. You can only groove properly if you've come up in a musical culture where you've been gifted with other older players who groove properly and if you get a chance to groove with them and know how it's supposed to feel. Once you know the feeling, it hooks you and you might spend your entire career seeking other musicians with whom to groove that way. Also, you can at a certain point walk away and carry and own the groove by yourself.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Oct 30, 2013 7:37 PM
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Kingley
3239 posts
Oct 30, 2013
9:59 PM
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"Finally, thinking that feeling is everything and technique is completely unimportant is ludicrous. When asking older Blues players for advice, there feedback was pretty consistent, "play what fits"."
I'm pretty sure that nobody has said the feeling is everything. Of course technique is important. I've said "Simply put, it's because many harp players are complete nerds and don't realise that playing the blues is all about feeling first and technique second. Playing with feeling is the benchmark of any good blues player. Having good technique doesn't mean a thing if you don't know what to do with it." and I stick by that. Playing with feeling in the context I have stated is all about playing in the groove, in the pocket, what fits or whatever else you care to call it. I'm paraphrasing here, but like Rick Estrin says in his DVD "with a couple of good licks and a helluva groove a person can say a lot". Joe L cites Jimmy Reed in another thread about lessons as a player to learn from and I agree with entirely. A person can learn a hell of a lot from Jimmy. Technically though on harmonica he is far from the greatest, but he plays what fits. That to me is a perfect example of what I would call playing with feeling.
I know plenty of players who have very good technique, but to listen to they are boring and their music is lifeless. By the same token I know a few players who aren't technically minded and only have a repertoire of a few licks but place them in such a way that it's a joy to listen too. Ideally of course a person has good technique and good feeling and understands what makes the music tick.
"Once you know the feeling, it hooks you and you might spend your entire career seeking other musicians with whom to groove that way. Also, you can at a certain point walk away and carry and own the groove by yourself."
Yes indeed.
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 30, 2013 10:03 PM
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Kingley
3241 posts
Oct 30, 2013
10:54 PM
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"If you don't know what fits the groove, you've got a problem. I asked James Cotton about that one time, he told me that I had to listen. When I asked who to listen to. He said, "you should listen to everyone."
Very true indeed Joe and some stellar advice from James that everyone should pay attention too.
" If they want Little Walter and you can't deliver, there is usually someone else that might be a better fit."
Especially where you live Joe, you lucky dog!
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barbequebob
2369 posts
Oct 31, 2013
10:42 AM
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Part of being a really good musician is not just good playing skills, but also good LISTENING skills as well, and only listening to the notes of a solo is NOT ENOUGH, because you also have to pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to groove and feel, all of which are important, but very subtle and the subtle stuff makes a HUGE difference in how everything works out in the end and too many players outside the blues genre too often are guilty of ignoring these things, often thinking they're too boring and too unimportant, and anyone who thinks that way is totally clueless. Many of these things will apply to other genres as well, and that's a big secret in learning how to be TRULY versatile as well.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Joe_L
2385 posts
Oct 31, 2013
12:55 PM
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When learning, the only time that listening to a solo is good is when you're trying to steal it or trying to understand the context in which it is being played so you can use part of in the future.
Leaving space is something that most players don't do. How can the listener appreciate something amazing if there isn't quiet time to reflect on what was just said?
Part of what makes BB King's music so special is that it isn't "on" all the time. He leaves spaces and time to absorb what was just said either with his guitar or his voice.
A great deal of what makes Little Walter's recordings so great is the interplay between Walter and the band members. Quite often, I remember more of what Louis Myers or Robert Jr was playing under him. That only happens when there is listening and space.
When someone who can copy Walter is playing, it's the stuff that the other band members aren't doing that I miss.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Oct 31, 2013 1:31 PM
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Kingley
3243 posts
Oct 31, 2013
11:10 PM
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Excellent post Joe! I agree with every word of what you wrote.
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Michael Rubin
817 posts
Nov 01, 2013
4:54 AM
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Little Charlie Baty is a great harmonica player. He taught himself guitar in order to teach his guitarists how to back up a harp player. Then he met Rick Estrin and knew Rick really had something so he became the guitar player.
Rumor has it Piazza learned to play all of the instruments in his band at a pro level in order to direct his band.
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Kingley
3246 posts
Nov 01, 2013
6:21 AM
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I agree Little Charlie is a very good harp player. I wouldn't buy the Piazza rumour though as he's a pretty shrewd business man. Over the years if he could play the band instruments to that level, I suspect he'd have done a lot of stuff with just him and Honey.
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Joe_L
2386 posts
Nov 01, 2013
8:08 AM
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I heard Little Charlie blow some harp a couple months ago. He sounded pretty good.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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