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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Dylan gets the wrong harmonica
Dylan gets the wrong harmonica
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1847
998 posts
Aug 20, 2013
11:02 PM
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they say that those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
i have been playing harmonica for as long as i can remember.
when i listen back to my playing,ninety nine percent
sounds like total crap! and i consider my self a harmonica player? i have heard more of his playing that sounded great
then of my own!... and i work a lot harder at it.
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play
"but i play anyway"
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Gipsy
26 posts
Aug 20, 2013
11:29 PM
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@SuperBee. Please accept my apologies for not replying to you earlier, but our new 8 week old cocker spaniel puppy arrived a couple of days ago, and we've been rather busy.
I think the way the thread has progressed has helped me validate my statement, in that like him or loath him Dylan has made an impact on most of us of a certain age.
I agree completely with what everyone has posted about his so called technical weakness on the playing front, but IMHO the sheer naivety of his playing on many occasions was what made him so accessible. When he put his mind to it he was capable of very good if not great musicianship, but he tried never to let it get in the way of the performance ( sometimes I'll admit he was too successful in this endeavour ) and so allowed me and other pimply wannabes believe the overall message was the important bit, and not virtuoso musicianship, the message part we could all aspire too, the virtuoso musicianship bit left the vast majority behind.
I'm now guilty of rambling like good old Bob! I've been up most of the night with a lonely little puppy, who is now asleep on my foot, while I try to keep awake using caffeine rather than illicit chemicals. Just one point I'd like to make about this forum and it's members is how much I appreciate the ability to discuss such matters, in an adult manner and not as happens in so many other places by resorting to name calling etc.
Last Edited by Gipsy on Aug 20, 2013 11:33 PM
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LittleBubba
294 posts
Aug 21, 2013
6:43 AM
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two things: Dylan may have gotten part of his penchant for obtuse lyrics from Woody Guthrie. Many of Guthrie's less popular songs strayed into ridiculosity.
Also, I take the current Dylan as just a musician terminally addicted to gigging, like alotta guys. He does it 'cuz his soul needs it.
He was always more commercial than people realized. He played protest tunes 'cuz that was selling when he started out.
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fred_gomez
159 posts
Aug 21, 2013
7:03 AM
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no dylan said his lyrical inspiration was from robert johnson (like how johnson never explained anything). the esoteric poetry came from aurthur rimbard. the voice and preacher style came from guthrie.
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chromaticblues
1442 posts
Aug 21, 2013
10:37 AM
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Dylan is a story teller. He just used the harp as a rythmic tool.
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Lmbrjak
176 posts
Aug 21, 2013
5:29 PM
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somehow, this belongs on this thread I think.
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MP
2893 posts
Aug 22, 2013
12:11 PM
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Re 1847s link "he must be doing something right"
i went there(Guitar Center)and found that for $25,000.00 you can own 7 Bob Dylan signed Marine Bands in a nice box complete w/ letter of authenticity and a note from Hohner.
WOW!! what a deal! i know the world is crazy but i still get amazed sometimes.
Oh, interesting key choices- there is a B and an E. why not Bb and Eb? is that because you are not supposed to play them? i mean after all, they are musical instruments.
oh, side note. Dylan is a 2nd pos player though he sounds like a 1st pos. player.
i had a signed Lee Oskar once. wonder whatever happened to it. :-)
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
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you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Aug 22, 2013 12:13 PM
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1847
1006 posts
Aug 22, 2013
1:38 PM
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but mp.. you are a harp tech.
you could take a ball peen hammer to the B and the E
then you will have a B flat and an E flat
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master po
i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Shaganappi
39 posts
Aug 22, 2013
5:28 PM
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If a star (or previous star) is mentioned, sometimes we get carried away. Opinions can often be negative after a star has dimmed (as we may not be "into" that sort of music anymore). Personally, I don't like a ton of the raw old time blues harp. They are of interest to me, but I cannot listen to them for long without getting bored. We have to look at any era of music in perspective. Dylan was fine then. Many listeners have moved on since.
It is pretty obvious that Dylan is not likely to respond here so he is easy pickings. His choice was not to actively pursue a career in the harp or even virtuoso guitar. Nothing wrong with that. His well woven lyrics with his harp lent a major influence on the music scene for sure.
But it is certainly interesting to hear what harp players think of someone like Dylan . My two cents worth is that he would not have made it nearly as big if he did not do his harp thing. It lent a major "bite" to a lot of his earlier stuff. The harp may be small but it is an obviously important instrument when incorporated properly with many pieces of music then and now. Maybe it is because it is small that so few people can believe the feelings can come from it. The fact that he did not play virtuoso harp really shows that IMO.
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fred_gomez
165 posts
Aug 22, 2013
6:32 PM
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im not a fan of dylan, but he can do things i cant like play in 4th. and i cant play in 1st very well. well i can but its hard to have a brain for blues in 1st. you said you were struggling with first blues bee. just learn what you can from people you dont like and do you own thing. as for sloppy playing i like jerry mccain. but dylan influenced all the sloppy british blues players even steven tyler. im gonna listen to more jazz gillum and wayne rainey rockabilly in 1st and try to get the dylan out of my system. we all have it you know its true. try doing some campfire songs and not sound a bit like dylan. just try. i dare you! anyone.
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SuperBee
1379 posts
Aug 22, 2013
6:46 PM
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Yeah time will tell 99. I suspect in the future it is Dylan songs like buckets of rain, I'll be you baby tonight, from a Buick 6 which he will be remembered for, rather than ballad of a thin man, rolling stone, or even hurricane, times, tambourine man. I think those in the latter batch are all great songs in their time, but they are all of their time and as such, more curios, than songs which will go on. Blowing in the wind may continue, but then again, it was kinda quaint even when it was relatively new.
I'm not down on the cat at all. I'm down on the music journos who persist in peddling piffle about the past.
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Sedandelivery
20 posts
Aug 22, 2013
7:52 PM
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I don't know, speaking as a 27 year old who thinks he's the greatest, I see the early fame as a double-edged sword. I think his early fame was so great that he doesn't get enough credit for his later work. Case in point, he made a fantastic blues album in the late 90's and tours with a great blues/rock band now, but there have barely been any mentions of anything post 1976. Obviously, I wasn't around when the ripples were made, and to me it makes no difference. He has been relentlessly creative his whole career and he is hardly riding his rep from the 60's. Besides constantly putting out albums, what impresses me the most are the numerous fantastic live versions of his old songs. Granted they usually puzzle casual fans, but as an artist my self, the constant creativity is really inspiring.
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didjcripey
604 posts
Aug 22, 2013
11:15 PM
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Well said, Shaganappi
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Lucky Lester
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Gnarly
664 posts
Aug 22, 2013
11:49 PM
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I just have to share . . .
"Bob" by Weird Al, complete with classic Dylan harp licks.
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SuperBee
1380 posts
Aug 23, 2013
12:29 AM
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Well yeah but there's that question of enormous influence again.
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SuperBee
1381 posts
Aug 23, 2013
1:08 AM
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Yeah I concede I tuned out. After the 70s...well I was into that stuff then...I even used to play street legal...I really wanted slow train to be good...you know, we had saved...I forget the order but it was something like infidels , empire burlesque, shot of love was in there somewhere...I think I gave up after knocked out loaded...I was still a fan but I just wasn't getting anything...and man, his live shows had the worst rep...to my knowledge they still do, so it's interesting to see so many claim to like him live. I was 22 in 86, and I thought long on whether to accept a chance to go see him in Melbourne. I turned down the offer. I really wanted to hear him live, but it really seemed that required a time machine by then.
Sometime in the 90s I tuned in again and gave love and theft a listen. Meh. It was better than knocked out loaded but nothin to grab me. I've got it on the computer, and maybe some other 90s record.
That's good if he's doing good stuff. I really don't mean to bag him. I just think he is over-hyped. Lots of people do good stuff. I don't even hate his voice or his harmonica. I think they're appropriate. I think he has written great songs. I don't think he is as important in relation to the world of musical creativity as the various editors and publishers of rolling stone et al would have me believe. Anyway, it's ok. Ain't no use in talking to me, it's just the same as talking to you.
So is he still packing stadiums and theatres?
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Goldbrick
256 posts
Aug 23, 2013
2:56 AM
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Hate to get too involved in this but I gotta say I have seen Dylan several times and the shows were great
And I gotta say-show me a a better song writer. I dont think he is over rated at all
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SuperBee
1382 posts
Aug 23, 2013
5:26 AM
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Define 'better'
I could name willie nelson, johnny cash, sting, bono, david Byrne, Paul McCartney, stevie wonder, johnny mercer, duke Ellington, hoary Carmichael, Prokofiev, Richard Thompson, loud on wainwright, Leonard Cohen, John martyn, how many you want?
Dave Bromberg, Dave Mckenzie, rob Johnson, hank Williams, Dolly Parton, cole porter, yusef lateef, miles Davis, carol king, Brian Wilson, johnnie Johnson/chuck berry, Richard penniman, McKinley morganfield, jimmy buffet, ray Charles, Noel coward, mark knopfler, Townes van zandt, John lee hooker, patti smith, Gershwin, Alex Harvey, Rodrigo, Lou reed, John cale, Wayne shorter, frank Zappa, John Sebastian, John Lennon, kristofferson, Ian Anderson, joe Jackson, Paul Kelly, Fred McDowell, bill Monroe, Neil young...
But if you don't rate any of those cats, so what. I'd say that are all pretty good, Dylan definitely belongs in there, maybe in the top 10. But you know, that's just an arbitrary random list of a few good songwriters from the 20th century. And mainly just a few I could think of. I am dead sure I've omitted some really brilliant folks. Like Ry Cooder...and it's such a narrow slice of music... to call Dylan 'the best songwriter' is really a big call...Paul Simon...And these are just guys in the main, and just guys I can think of...in my narrow band of experience...geez
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Sedandelivery
21 posts
Aug 23, 2013
9:44 AM
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Well you could define "better" lots of ways. Critical acclaim, commercial success, lasting influence, opinions of peers, technical skill, etc. Obviously a lot of personal opinion is wrapped up in art, but consensus does exist as well, otherwise museums would be filled with anything and everything. No disrespect intended, but a lot of those names are stretches at best, and that was your list of people that were supposed to be "better." Ry Cooder? Fred Mcdowell? Really? Come on, now. We're talking about a paradigm shifting individual. This is where the problem for me comes in. Listing random songwriters and claiming that they're better just 'cuz doesn't really make sense or prove a point. Maybe I'm missing something and David Bromberg has won a Pulitzer special citation for his lyrical content, or there are college courses dedicated to studying the work of Alex Harvey, but I doubt it. For better or worse, Dylan is a giant, and it's a rep that is totally deserved. The least you could do is attempt to compare apples to apples.
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Goldbrick
257 posts
Aug 23, 2013
10:22 AM
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Better as in influential to both peers and listeners.
Bee-ok you dont like Dylan but that list is just a random list and not very serious.
Willie Dixon wrote much of Muddys stuff anyway
Half those guys are performers and really dont write.
So I will leave it where it lays-- Other than Hank Williams ( leaving out classical and jazz) non of them have the influence of Dylan
And its Hoagy not Hoary, Georgia
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tf10music
171 posts
Aug 25, 2013
10:02 PM
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Superbee: for someone who is big on throwing names out in the same sentence as Dylan, you really seem to know very little about the relationship between Dylan's music and the music of most of the men and women on that list. First of all -- Mark Knopfler? John Martyn? Ian Anderson? BONO (and I say this as a fan of U2)?! I love their music, but to compare their lyrics to Dylan's is pretty foolish. Miles Davis didn't even really write lyrics, except maybe on "Doo Bop (I might be wrong, though)." It seems like you just threw together a list of names of people you've heard of who are well-regarded musicians. You got a few names right, though: Townes Van Zandt belongs in the same breath as Dylan does. So do Joni Mitchell, arguable Leonard Cohen (I don't think so, but it's because he's a poor poet on paper and his lyrics don't pretend to be anything other than poetry). I agree that Dylan has had some speed bumps in his career, some poorly conceived albums, etc. But to call any of his songs that use stream-of-consciousness, indirect imagery 'obtuse' displays a profound ignorance on your part. Dylan decided to make his music literate -- he read poetry, and learned from people who devoted their lives to using words economically to form images that call up a coupled visceral and intellectual reaction from the reader/listener. Hell, he even took Dylan Thomas' first name as his last name -- that implies lineage, doesn't it? Furthermore, Dylan only ever pretended to be a poet once ("Tarantula" was a bad idea, and, while it's on my shelf, reading it depresses the hell out of me). The vast majority of the time, he has functioned as a songwriter being poetic, which has served him well, and allowed him to make a cultural imprint that people like Leonard Cohen have been unable to equal, despite their facility with words. You're right that Dylan didn't invent the protest song, but he did it better than anyone had ever done it before, in a more elevated and mythological manner. I've soaked up all of his generation and the one before him -- the difference between his early work and Guthrie's, or Seeger's, or his contemporaries like Dave Van Ronk and Phil Ochs is that he utilized euphemism (an obvious example is "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall") to allow himself to say more, to mythologize his voice, and to universalize his platform. He allowed himself to grow more and more allusive as he went electric, because, I believe, he no longer desired an authorial voice that relied on an audience for power (and that's what protest music does, inarguably). I could go on, but let's just say that the great songwriters of today are so trapped in his shadow that if they're lucky, they get COMPARED to him (Connor Oberst, Kristian Matsson, Sam Beam, Laura Marling, etc). While that may not be fair, the fact is that Dylan has projected an anxiety of influence over English language songwriting, which, in itself, justifies his importance and his 'greatness.'
"He also wrote a lot of drivel. It's ok. Some songs sound meaningful but really aren't. Like tangled up in blue."
Have you read those lyrics? Like, really taken them in? They're not the best on that album ("Shelter From The Storm" may be a perfect song), but damn, dude. He brings an entire world to life in "Tangled Up In Blue," and implies a lifetime's worth of stories within the sweep of his own. The details: "There was music in the cafes at night and revolution in the air." "Some are mathematicians, some are carpenters' wives -- I don't know how it all got started, don't know what they're doing with their lives." And then the references to specific locations to lend his narrative reality: "I lived with them on Montague Street," and "working for a while on a fishing boat right outside the Delacroix." Then there are the meetings between him and the woman, the description of the awkward encounter, and the climactic scene where his own narrative and Dante's conflate, establishing the woman as his 'great muse.' Obtuse?
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SuperBee
1386 posts
Aug 26, 2013
12:46 AM
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You cats certainly didn't understand the list I gather.
Well, where to start?
Easiest first?
The misunderstanding that I don't like Dylan. I have said several times I do. I just think he is overated. That is not the same as not liking him..
And the list. The list is not supposed to be a list of people who write lyrics like Dylan. It's a list of people who write great songs. Not a list of people I've heard of. A list of people whose songs I have listened to, and who I would rate.
The point of the list was in answer to golbrick's show me a better songwriter, and I prefaced it with 'define better'.
At some point in his life Dylan actually did define himself as a poet first and last.
Anyway, you read me wrong if you think I'm having a shot at mr Z. I'm just saying too much is made of him.
Did I say he was obtuse? I don't remember that. I think I implied I think he is not above writing doggerel.
Tangled up in blue. Yeah lovely words. Very evocative. I used to think it was a great song. Then I tried to put the story together. He started in to dealing with slaves and something inside of him died, she had to sell everything she owned and froze up inside. And when at last the bottom fell out I became withdrawn the only thing I knew how to do was to keep on keeping on like a bird that flew tangled up in blue.
What's that all about?
That's what I mean. I just can't connect the dots in that song. It sounds like it means something. Maybe you know what it's about, but I can't tell. Dealing with slaves?0so this is a euphemism for something presumably ? I thought it was all one story for years, then I decided it must be a series of vignettes, not connected
That's one thing I mean. I can't tell what that song is about. It's lovely but what does it mean? How can one sing along? I hear people sing along, I hear people play it and sing it. I wonder what it means to them. Keep on keeping on like a bird that flew. What does that mean? Here in Australia keep on keeping on is a slogan for British paints brand paint. Montague st in a basement down the stairs.
Well I dunno, maybe he did. It doesn't seem that likely. working for for a while on a fishing boat...really? Oh, is he looking out of someone else's eyes?
Evocative, but kinda fake. If you sing along...it's a kind of fake place.
Shelter from the storm. I used to love that song. What's it about? I first heard it on hard rain I think. Now I put it in that bucket of songs which sound good.
Everyone on that list can write songs which sound good. Dylan rewrote a lot of folk songs, made them relevant to his time.
My point is not that he is no good. I think he is very good indeed. Although he does have a very bad reputation as a live performer.
I just disagree that he is head and shoulders the best songwriter in terms people have suggested here. Acclaim doesn't count, because his acclaim came at a particular time in history. Longevity doesn't really count because there are others also hanging in there. I say that he is the best at what he does, but what he does is not the same as music, or even popular music. He is clever with words. Some of his tunes are nice though often not really very original, especially early on. I have no beef with that. Just saying he is a words guy and he is good at it. That does not make him a great 'songwriter'. Sorry, that's not clear. I mean, there is more to a great song than words. I think tangled up in blue is actually quite a good song and it has clever, evocative poetic sounding words. It's not poetry like Coleridge understood it, but nonetheless it sounds like it means something and it paints images with words. I don't think it tells a story but it kinda sounds like it does. And maybe that's what matters.
But it doesn't mean he is a 'better songwriter' than....,
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Lmbrjak
177 posts
Aug 26, 2013
5:37 PM
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There's a 7 page interview at the rolling stone website where Bob seems to agree with much of what Superbee says. He loves doing what he does and is proud of what he has accomplished,but thinks the hype and the analyzing of his work is crazy. As far as lyrics go,sometimes I think the words are used like notes...the SOUND of the word is more important than the meaning. For me, tangled up in blue is about those girls that drive you crazy with desire and are probably not good for health,safety,sanity,or well-being,but they get a grip on your heart, mind and soul. Full disclosure: she had beautiful blue eyes:)
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tf10music
173 posts
Aug 26, 2013
6:29 PM
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Full disclosure: I don't think Dylan is the best songwriter of all time, whatever that means. I don't think anybody can lay claim to that. I think Dylan is one of the most important songwriters of all time, which is a different matter entirely. I also think that Dylan's project has been fundamentally different from some of the artists that Superbee has listed, which is why I scoffed at the comparison.
Quite frankly, I don't care very much what Dylan says about his reception, because it's out of his hands now. I don't usually analyze Dylan's lyrics, but as a songwriter myself, I can't help but notice the things he does that I also want to do. I don't agree with anybody who thinks they can uncover what a song is 'really trying to say,' so on that level, I agree with what Dylan has said about himself.
Superbee, I do think you seem to be too attached to linear narrative in lyrical composition to truly appreciate what Dylan does. Which is fine, because we all have our preferences. I hate most of Leonard Cohen's work, but I always give him his due, because it's only fair. Also, in the tradition Dylan worked out of, words have everything to do with songwriting, so I'm not sure what you're getting at by separating the two. Vapid lyrics indicate a vapid song -- that actually afflicts a lot of contemporary blues musicians, many of whom seem to be unable to turn a truly memorable lyric. Either way, calling Dylan a 'words guy' is a bit of an odd choice. And why Coleridge? The man died more than a century before Dylan's birth. Robert Hass doesn't understand poetry in the same way that Coleridge does, either. Neither did Dylan Thomas. I'd say Dylan's free flowing style owes a lot to Rimbaud, but also echoes many of the American writers that worked in and around his era: Frank O'Hara, Allen Ginsberg, and even hints of Elizabeth Bishop (to name a few). But he hasn't ever been a poet, so those comparisons are ultimately useless in the same way that comparing Dylan to Miles Davis is useless. just because a lyric is informed by poetry doesn't mean it's a poem, or that it sets out with the same intentions as one.
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Old Hickory
86 posts
Aug 26, 2013
6:54 PM
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The thread that wouldn't die....haha! As a recently converted classical guitarist I have to agree with a quote from Frank Zappa, "All the good music has already been written...... by people with wigs and stuff."
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SuperBee
1387 posts
Aug 26, 2013
7:37 PM
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Ben. It's like this: Songwriter does not equal Poet. Simple point.
Not about the work. Inspired by statements to the effect that criticism of Dylan, whether it be to despair his presentation of the harmonica, or any thing else he does, are without any merit because he is influential/a high achiever/the best songwriter since Gershwin/changed the face of popular music/introduced artslashpoetry to pop song lyrics. Basically, he has trumped the world with success and brilliance which should render us mute with respect. That stuff offends me. Independently of whether the criticisms have any weight. Lets consider argument on merit and not pass a gag motion simply because the defendant is a better man than his accuser.
Goldbrick's bald assertion Bob Z is 'the best songwriter' got under my skin. I presented some other songwriters who write 'good' songs. Many different kinds of songs. Some don't even have words, dude.
TIB...now I'm an older guy, like bob...not quite...I see things differently than when I first heard the song, as a young teenager and imagined what it might mean. Back then, information not so readily available, learned opinion not at the fingertips.
Now I can just look it up and see what people think its all about.
Of course, it hadn't occurred to me to do that until recently. But it makes sense in part at least. I can see how the mind works. Apparently he wrote it over a couple of years. Not surprising.
The muse is possibly a girl from his youth.its arguable the true muse is Sarah, but in any case, he thinks about a girl. I guess she is the archetype.
This happens. Something triggers a memory.
Some of the song would be personal. Some is drawn from stories of unfulfilled love. Some literate allusions. I don't understand all the references but the Italian poet whose words rang true and glowed like burning coal seems likely to be Petrarch.although he was 14th century but its a common enough error. These episodes are pretty obscure though when you consider this was a pop record. I mean, released as a single. I doubt anyone was supposed to get the references. There's the other story that its a patchwork of episodes from his married life, but that really doesn't seem likely. I don't think they actually drove a car as far as they could and abandoned it out west, etc...and I don't think bob worked on a fishing boat. I could be wrong.
So look, yeah, harsh to say it doesn't mean anything. Of course it's personal to him. It's not my song, and I don't really know where people get off doing covers of a song like this, but we all have our own ways of thinking.
I wrote an essay one time, advocating change to the English lit reading list and the inclusion of Dylan. There was a little strife over that; mainly because I suggested it was time to drop the study of Coleridge.
I must say, I'm pretty glad there was no Internet back in the days when I was a 'poet' :0)
Ben, i don't really wanna get personal. And I regret getting a little snappy about Goldbrick's stuff. But...
I'd appreciate it if you laid off the personal remarks. Ignorant I may be. In a sense we all are. To call me profoundly ignorant I think is beginning to get a little close to insult.
To say I'm 'too attached' to linear narrative to appreciate what bob does is pretty condescending, Ben. I think you assume a fair bit.
And old hickory is spot on. In my view.
How do you end something like this?
I'm not gonna write any more or open this thread again. If you or anyone really wants me to know anything about why I've said bad things which demonstrate my wrong-headed view of life, please email me. Address is in my name link.
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The Iceman
1124 posts
Aug 27, 2013
6:45 AM
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1. Miles Davis did not write the words on "Doo-Bop" recording.
2. re:figuring out meaning and the sound of words...
Whiter Shade of Pale
Great song. Words don't really mean anything, but people are always looking for something in them.
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The Iceman
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Lmbrjak
178 posts
Aug 27, 2013
8:57 AM
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This post has gone from Dylan's harp skills to his influence,songwriting,etc. I'm going to end with this: I love Dylan's harpwork(but not all of it)and I think his style is unique. He fits more into the country blues category and probably appeals more to rural people than urban and I'm ok with people not liking his harp work. For me,Dylan is one hell of a blues man,and plays blues harp with great expression and I love this(your taste may vary).
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Frank
2665 posts
Aug 27, 2013
9:16 AM
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Bob plays on this track starting at min 2:52
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