FMWoodeye
766 posts
Jul 26, 2013
2:51 PM
|
I've listened today to SuperBee's and Pistolcat's version of Easy, and then went to You Tube to listen to Big Walter's version. And while I enjoyed them all and immediately pulled out a Bb harp and played along some, I must say that I'm not a big fan of the tremolo effect. I mean, I don't DISlike it, but it doesn't do much for me. It may be because when I was a young tromboner, I used exactly this technique as my "vibrato" (I know, why not move the slide?) until a teacher pointed it out to me. Still, it sounded like a vibrato in my head....that is, until he recorded me and played it back. It was definetly the same sound that you guys are calling tremolo. I had a helluva time breaking that habit, so perhaps that experience 45 years ago is coloring my perception today.
|
Pistolcat
471 posts
Jul 26, 2013
3:03 PM
|
I wasn't too hot on it first time I heard it either... I thought it was a bit, I don't know, cheap? Like rubbing your Adam's apple while singing. But then it grew on me. :)I wouldn't fool myself into believing it was a vibrato, though.
----------
Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
|
FMWoodeye
768 posts
Jul 26, 2013
4:19 PM
|
Sometimes what you THINK you're playing is not what is going out into the air. Uh...you're doing it with the throat, right? Anyway, recording myself and playing it back is a tool I utilize today. It's something I would recommend everyone to do from time to time.
Last Edited by FMWoodeye on Jul 26, 2013 4:24 PM
|
SuperBee
1329 posts
Jul 26, 2013
6:22 PM
|
JimiLee got me started on it FMW. Taught me to play the reed 20 cents sharp. It's like that "pre-yawn" throat iceman mentions I think. Anyway, it's that kind of movement. Like the opposite of a bend, opening up the space rather than closing it down. So that's the movement anyway, for me. That slightly more open than usual open throat to a normal open throat..
JL advocated a few exercises.. 1, just do it at a steady pace and volume. 2, start at 1, and get faster. 3, get slower. 4, get louder, 5, get quieter
Then combine the elements. Louder and faster, louder and slower, quieter and faster, quieter and slower.
There are definite benefits to be had from these exercises.
He used to bring me back to that 20cent sharp thing, and what he calls breathing from the glottis. I found my ability to get this effect developed rapidly when I focused on these exercises, just a short time each day, only a couple minutes. But playing Easy takes 2.5 minutes and that has really helped cement the ability for me.
And I am not claiming to be great at it, just saying the technique totally eluded me for years and JL helped me get it working in short time.
I hope I'm explaining it ok, it's a while ago...I seem to recall watching the tuner to ensure I didn't bend the note flat.
JL emphasised in particular the louder/slower and softer/faster exercises as teaching the brain a lot about separating the function of throat and diaphragm.
----------
JellyShakersFacebookPage
JellyShakersTipJar
|
WinslowYerxa
376 posts
Jul 26, 2013
7:39 PM
|
This vibrato vs. tremolo terminology thing is kind of stupid.
Anything you can do to put an undulation in a sustained note has been called vibrato all through the last five centuries or so. Harmonica players started this tremolo distinction sometime in the last few decades, perhaps influenced by the "tremolo" knob on some amplifiers.
You can create an undulation in a musical notes at least three ways, and nearly always on the harmonica you're doing at least two of them.
- You can change the tone color (bright/dark, vowel sounds).
- You can change amplitude (loudness)
- You can change the pitch (microtonal bending).
When it comes to using body actions to undulate a note on the harmonica, the usual ones fall out like this:
- Diaphragm vibrato changes only the amplitude.
- Throat vibrato changes amplitude and pitch.
- Tongue vibrato (y-ya-ya) changes both the tone color (via vowel sounds) and pitch.
- Hand vibrato changes tone color and amplitude (For each note, a certain size of hand opening will make the note louder, and you usually pass through it as you open and close your hands.
Looking at these three types of undulation and how they combine is a more fruitful and creative way of investigating and using them than the false and limiting distinction between "vibrato" and "tremolo."
----------
Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 26, 2013 7:42 PM
|
FMWoodeye
769 posts
Jul 26, 2013
8:31 PM
|
Yeah....that's what I meant.
|
yonderwall
63 posts
Jul 26, 2013
8:39 PM
|
Hi Winslow, I have to very respectfully (I'm being sincere here) disagree with what I perceive to be your too-quick of a dismissal of a distinction between tremolo (amplitude variation) and vibrato (pitch variation).
You add hand and tongue effects to the mix and refer to the set of all four (very different) things as "undulation" -- which taken in aggregate the are, yes… but… they are are still all very different things when taken individually.
I listen to Easy, for example, and I don't focus on hand effects or tonal coloring via vowel sounds (though, yes, these things are all present to some degree, obviously, in everything that is ever played). With "Easy" my brain hears, and thinks, predominantly "tremolo," not "vibrato." (nor hand effects, etc.).
While I certainly agree that it is fruitful to recognize and promote general discussion of tonal variation, I think that in this case you are too quick to mash everything together. Most beginners find tremolo (dare I say) "easy" :) -- whereas a good vibrato (not to mention hand and tongue effects) take/s more work.
|
WinslowYerxa
378 posts
Jul 26, 2013
9:17 PM
|
I'm not mashing things together. I'm teasing them apart.
If you give something a label, and then define that label so that it ignores half of what's happening, you're missing out
Not all tunes use all three variables.
But all three variables do interact.
I think it's better to be aware of all three, and how any given harmonica technique will usually blend two of them.
You almost never hear pure amplitude change ( the label called tremolo). It is usually accompanied either by pitch change (throat) or change in tonal color (hands).
Likewise you almost never hear pure pitch change (the label called vibrato). It's almost always accompanied by amplitude change (throat) or color change (hands).
When you'e aware of al three variables, you have greater freedom to combine them and be creative with them. That's better than the false dilemma created by the standard labels and their definitions.
----------
Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 26, 2013 9:24 PM
|
yonderwall
64 posts
Jul 27, 2013
5:04 AM
|
Fair enough Winslow. It seems then that we do agree after all :) I was just initially taken aback with your opening line . distinct and important techniques). But now I see what you were driving at.
(I also now see in the SuperBee "Easy" thread that Adam jumped in and called the whole kit and kaboodle "vibrato" -- so much for my championing of distinctions...)
|
MP
2864 posts
Jul 28, 2013
1:40 PM
|
From Winslow-
"Harmonica players started this tremolo distinction sometime in the last few decades, perhaps influenced by the "tremolo" knob on some amplifiers."
I'll go w/ that, as this setting on amplifiers has been
incorrectly labeled for years.
Like Woodeye i was a "tromboner for a brief period in junior high. i often wished the period were briefer. I was lucky to get a sound out of the WWII instruments they saddled us with. Vibrato? Not a chance.
----------
MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
|
Thievin' Heathen
236 posts
Jul 28, 2013
1:48 PM
|
So MP, is it safe to say, "that which is good in harmonica(i.e. pre-war) is not so good in trombone?"
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jul 28, 2013 1:49 PM
|
MP
2866 posts
Jul 28, 2013
1:58 PM
|
Heathen :-)
As my sainted mother used to say to me often.
"Oh, i don't know".
I will say that every single pre-war Hohner i've come across needs some kind of work to get it up to snuff. They are really old...
----------
MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
Last Edited by MP on Jul 28, 2013 2:02 PM
|
FMWoodeye
772 posts
Jul 28, 2013
3:02 PM
|
A lot of old brass instruments are great....IF they were great to begin with. If you don't have "your own" instrument in school, you get an old student-rated instrument, one that wasn't that great to begin with. I guess it makes more sense than investing in a quality instrument only to have the kid drop out. I'm presently playing a student-level Yamaha trombone, which I've painted black (black-cat bone). It functions adequately, but it's not like a professional-level instrument.
|
KingoBad
1362 posts
Jul 28, 2013
9:37 PM
|
Did anybody notice the term "tromboner" used twice in this thread?
Heh heh....
----------
Danny
|
MP
2868 posts
Jul 29, 2013
2:54 PM
|
KingoBad,
I did. There is a story behind it too.
In Junior High I remember three or four girls taunting me from an upstairs classroom balcony after they found out my choice of band instrument. they called out very loudly as i crossed the campus below them. TROMBONER!! TROMBONER!! They laughed very loudly. I think they may have liked me but what do i know.
So, yes indeed.
----------
MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
|
