Rarko
23 posts
Jul 21, 2013
1:35 PM
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I know 1,2 and 3rd position (for playing blues). I know that there are other positions but when I listen blues albums, blues bands gig repertoir, I have impression that almost every song is in 2nd position (let's say around 85 percents), couple of songs in 1st (maybe 10%) and one or two songs in 3rd (5%).
So, am I wrong? and how many position do you guys use?
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The Iceman
1032 posts
Jul 21, 2013
2:04 PM
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You got the 3 main positions right...however, without extensive data gathering, it's hard to determine percentages.
I hear closer to 70% cross, 15% first, 15% third.
However, percentages change if you listen to a lot of Jimmy Reed, for example.
Charlie Musselwhite listening will add some 4th and 5th position to the mix.
I use them all...sometimes ignoring position and just playing the notes, but I am not the norm.
Interesting question, but you should learn as many positions as you can. Even if you end up playing mostly 2nd, you'd be surprised at how much better a musician you become with all that additional knowledge ingrained in your subconscious.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 21, 2013 2:04 PM
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Jim Rumbaugh
892 posts
Jul 21, 2013
3:24 PM
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12,1,2,3,4,5
not in that order
that's enough for me
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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Greg Heumann
2274 posts
Jul 21, 2013
3:26 PM
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Let's see - there's missionary, doggie style, butterfly, cowgirl, .....
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jbone
1304 posts
Jul 21, 2013
8:26 PM
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1st, 2nd, 3rd. A bit of 5th some time ago which I hope to revisit.
I find 1st and 3rd to make up a lot of my playing, 1st maybe 15 or 20%, 3rd maybe 40 to 50, the rest 2nd.
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oldwailer
1971 posts
Jul 21, 2013
10:28 PM
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I'm probably about 90% 2nd--4% 12th--4% 3d--and 2% 1st. I also use some minor tuned harps--but that's really just 2nd position that sounds like third. If you haven't tried 12th--you just gotta give it a whirl--it really opens up a lot of songs in a very natural way. . .
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STME58
503 posts
Jul 21, 2013
11:35 PM
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I use all 7 because I don't have and F or G attachment.
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harpdude61
1764 posts
Jul 22, 2013
1:48 AM
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Like everyone mostly 2nd. During a show I use 3rd on six songs and 1st on four. I use fifth on a couple of songs but that is growing. Fifth is great for high end minor blues and really good for low end octave playing for backing. Some really cool stuff there. 12th is good but I don't find much use for it in blues. I'm sure someone does.
4th has the whole blues scale available on the high end with no overbends. As does 1st.
If you do overblow pretty well you will find that the same scales that are available in 4th and 5th come very easy in 3rd. Jason has some great YT videos on this.
I tried to give reasons with my answers. Hope it helps.
With all respect Ice you say your just playing notes but you must have a harp in hand that corresponds to a position. If you can do that with the harp that puts you in 7,8,9 position you are way ahead of most.
A great exercise is to put on blues that you don't know the key, grab any random harp and see if you can find the root note and learn what position it puts you in. You will get to a point to where if you want to play in 2nd, but grab a harp that puts you in 5th or 6th, then you will instantly know which harp to grab to put you in 2nd.
I do agree that learning more positions makes you a much better player.
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S-harp
147 posts
Jul 22, 2013
2:23 AM
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Mostly 2nd, say 70%. Now days I use 1st more than 3rd. 4th and 5th are nice but my woodshedding is not done in 4th and 5th yet.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
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jbear
21 posts
Jul 22, 2013
2:55 AM
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A while back I made a conscious decision to not use any position except 2nd until I was able to improvise really well over a simple blues and learn a really good repertoire of licks. I didn't want to be distracted with learning new positions yet.
I'm not there yet...
Is this a good/bad idea?
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S-harp
148 posts
Jul 22, 2013
4:41 AM
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jbear ...
"A while back I made a conscious decision to not use any position except 2nd until I was able to improvise really well over a simple blues and learn a really good repertoire of licks. I didn't want to be distracted with learning new positions yet."
I did the same and, but narrowed it down to 1sr, 2nd and third. My reason was that I think one should be able to work those positions first. Working muliple positions is great, I agree with previous posts, it gives you a broader musical over view to do as many positions as possible, but I find it better to dig in deep in the first three psitions first. This will also make it easier to tackle higher positions.
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The tone, the tone ... and the Tone
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Martin
418 posts
Jul 22, 2013
5:33 AM
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@jbear: A bad idea, I think. Mainly because, in the learning stage you describe, fluency in, say, pos 1 and 3 could significantly increase the no of available licks for blues playing in 2 pos.
@Rarko. I use 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 11 and 12. Have not so far seen the need for anything outside of that.
And playing in "weird" positions have no intrinsic value, it should only serve the music.
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The Iceman
1033 posts
Jul 22, 2013
7:10 AM
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Harpdude..
You're right in saying " you must have a harp in hand that corresponds to a position".
It's just that, when stepping outside the normal blues ideas or playing other types of tunes, I think about playing the notes. I'd have to stop and figure out the position as an additional step.
So, in the heat of performance, I'm not thinking positions at all.
I admit that I am not the norm in this respect and only suggest that others venture into this sandbox after getting a firm handle on positions, note choices and even (gasp) a little music theory.
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The Iceman
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Rick Davis
2147 posts
Jul 22, 2013
7:49 AM
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I am not an expert player. I play mostly in 2nd position, sometimes in 1st pos, and less often in 3rd pos. I admire players who have mastered many different positions.
But, I gotta tell ya... At the jam I've heard a few players try using 3rd pos or 5th pos and make a hash of it. They just sounded like they were playing the wrong harp. Playing 3rd or higher has kind of a Gee Whiz factor that may compel players to try it when they are not really ready, or to force it into places where 1st or 2nd would sound a lot better.
Hey, if 2nd pos (and only about 5 notes) was good enough for Howlin' Wolf it is good enough for me. ;-)
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The Blues Harp Amps Blog
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tmf714
1857 posts
Jul 22, 2013
7:55 AM
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"Hey, if 2nd pos (and only about 5 notes) was good enough for Howlin' Wolf it is good enough for me. ;-)"
Yeah-but Wolf could sing and play guitar too-
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jul 22, 2013 7:55 AM
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timeistight
1301 posts
Jul 22, 2013
8:01 AM
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Hey, Wolf played minor key, first position on Who's Been Talking. That's pretty advanced position playing in my book.
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harpdude61
1765 posts
Jul 22, 2013
8:33 AM
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I see what you mean Ice. I starting enjoying theory once a few main concepts sunk in. Give theory a fair chance guys. It will help you understand positions much much clearer.
I am working hard now on the concept of playing 1,2,3 positions on some 3 chord tunes, 12 bar and otherwise.
Say the song is in the key G, I will use a C harp and play 2nd position on th I chord, 1st position on the IV chord, and 3rd position on the V chord. A whole different ball game in note selection and phrasing.
I totally get what Rick Davis is saying..and I am guilty. Players will practice for years in 2nd position before they do it in public, but learn a few licks in 5th and hear they go. Playing in 3rd, 4th , and 5th is one thing...making it as smooth, articulate, and confident as good ole cross harp is another matter.
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scojo
422 posts
Jul 22, 2013
8:34 AM
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1,2,3,4,5, 6, 12
Probably in roughly equal proportions except for 6th, which I use only rarely. 11th is my next thing to tackle. I switch frequently within the same song, sometimes within a phrase.
I am not primarily a blues player, which accounts for the heavy use of other positions than 1-2-3.
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scojo
423 posts
Jul 22, 2013
8:41 AM
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I did this interview with Hal Walker on position playing at last year's SPAH. I misspoke about using "Scarborough Fair" as a touchstone for 5th position... it's better for 3rd.
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Rick Davis
2148 posts
Jul 22, 2013
9:35 AM
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I bet if Howlin' Wolf were alive he would recognize the winkie emoticon and know what it means. I know he had a sense of humor.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Georgia Blues
82 posts
Jul 22, 2013
9:54 AM
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For me... all second and third, about equally. I learned in to play second position for the most part listening to records. Then accidentally fell into 3rd position which seems really natural and is my favorite. Seems the most musical somehow. I am struggling like crazy with first position. Can't seem to wrap my head around it. I like the sound of it but it seems sooo limiting. What am I missing???
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Alex
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hooktool
52 posts
Jul 22, 2013
10:00 AM
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"I bet if Howlin' Wolf were alive he would recognize the winkie emoticon and know what it means. I know he had a sense of humor."
:)
John
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bluemoose
904 posts
Jul 22, 2013
10:13 AM
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1st, 2nd, seems a lot of 3rd these days. Occasionaly 5th and 6th but only long enough to realize I'm not in 2nd like I thought I was. Damn guitar players that don't call the key!! :(
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
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timeistight
1303 posts
Jul 22, 2013
11:23 AM
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(_8^(|)
@Georgia Blues: First position is limited; David Barrett calls it the most challenging of the three common positions to play blues in. It does give another colour, though, which can be a nice change, particularly if you have a run of tunes in the same key.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jul 22, 2013 12:38 PM
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scojo
424 posts
Jul 22, 2013
12:52 PM
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GB: 1st position becomes a lot less limiting if you overblow. It then becomes great for jazzy blues.
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harpdude61
1766 posts
Jul 22, 2013
1:30 PM
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Scojo is right on about 1st. Seems strange but if you want to use the blues scale in first, you need 4,5,6 overblow. I love it!
Many of the greats from James Cotton to Kim Wilson play KILLER 1st position blues..but you will notice jumps between the first octave and the third octave.
Overblows were just not part of the curriculum when they learned.
I'm an overblower and I enjoy what these guys do a LOT. My experience is I get more audience reaction from playing high end first position with blow bends more than anything I do.
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bluemoose
906 posts
Jul 22, 2013
2:48 PM
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@GB, check out the Erwin Last vid over in the Johnny B Goode thread. Very good example of not only 1st position playing, top octave setup dropping to bottom for the finish, but a perfect example of when NOT to play. Lays off intro, fills, turnarounds until it's his solo, nails it, and then steps right out until they take it home.
MBH Webbrain - a GUI guide to Adam's Youtube vids
FerretCat Webbrain - Jason Ricci's vids (by hair colour!)
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Rarko
25 posts
Jul 22, 2013
3:10 PM
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fred_gomez
124 posts
Jul 22, 2013
7:49 PM
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i use whatever works. i usually pick up 3 harps 2 diatonics and a chrome for any song. i mainly stick with 2nd then switch to some 3rd. if 3rd isnt working in a major key on diatonic i switch to a chrome. for minors i use diatonic or chrome in 3rd. sometimes if its a jangly 60s type minor tune i play chrome in 5th. now i know someone will argue but i see the chrome as two seperate harps (Eb is 3rd button in not 10th played like 3rd) so if im playing the 64 monster in D 3rd i push the button and play 8th. its usually tweeky stuff up at the high end kinda like first position bending. if im playing 3rd button in in Eb, i let out the button and play in 10th which is in the middle some place and pretty limited. i dont want to argue i only know it works for me and i see the chrome as two harps in one. i can do this button play on a koch as well in 2nd, i dont feel like looking it up i just do it if im playing a koch in G i can push the button and still play in G. first position can be a mutha. listen to those old prewar guys like the jugband, jazz gillum, rhythim willie, its great for ragtimey type stuff and hokum jazz. for bendiing high notes in first check out jimmy reed oh and wayne rainey he was boss on first. oh and neil youngs heart of gold is a real lamer song but the blues in first technique is there esp that cool bendy draw blues part.
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Gnarly
646 posts
Jul 22, 2013
11:34 PM
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I play first on a lot of pop and folk, second a lot for blues and rock, if a song is minor I will use Power Chromatic, and I use Major Cross and New World (you don't know that one, it's my tuning) a lot for Celtic and more chromatic folk and pop.
I just tuned a SUB 30 to major cross, I'm bringing it to SPAH.
I like twelfth but don't use it much onstage. Frankly I am trying to play as much chrom as I can get away with.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jul 22, 2013 11:35 PM
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Mojokane
709 posts
Jul 23, 2013
1:39 AM
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All these positions!! geeeeeeeez louise! I'm getting Position Envy.
-2nd and last solo sound like 1st position.
- the intro same? The intro sounded waaay out there!
It always amazes me how Charlie makes it fit, and very musical.
And Little Charlie is smokin, too.
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by Mojokane on Jul 23, 2013 1:43 AM
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Rarko
26 posts
Jul 23, 2013
3:37 AM
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5th position, G harp
does anyone knows a song from 4th (or any other position except 1,2,3), I would like to hear it?
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Martin
427 posts
Jul 23, 2013
5:15 AM
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Check Musselwhites records: he does a version of Barney Kessel´s "Little star" somewhere. Think that´s 4th.
Also, earlier record, "The harmonica according to CM" a tune called "Azul para ... (something)". Seem to remember that´s Am on a C harp.
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walterharp
1143 posts
Jul 23, 2013
6:12 AM
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I have mentioned my proclivity for 14th position in prior posts...
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tmf714
1858 posts
Jul 23, 2013
6:12 AM
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On Charlies "Continental Drifter" ,the song "Can't Stay Away From You" -Charlie plays the solo on a C harp in 4th-the song is in the key of A.
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MP
2844 posts
Jul 23, 2013
12:27 PM
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Martin,
i believe it is Azul para Amparo. Roughly, Blues for Amparo. Amparo was Musselwhites wifes name at the time.
Oh, Reverse Cowgirl.
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MP
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Last Edited by MP on Jul 23, 2013 12:33 PM
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