STME58
496 posts
Jul 18, 2013
10:28 AM
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I am sure many of you are aware of this and you can chuckle knowingly at my struggle to learn. For others, I hope I may save you some frustration if you make the journey to minor tuned harps.
I have been playing minor harps, unaccompanied for about a year now and I really like the sound. I have both Hohner Special 20 and Lee Oscar harps in Natural minor. Because I haven’t been playing with anyone, I haven’t really paid attention to what key I am in, just having fun with a harp that cool sounding chords and melodies just seem to flow naturally out of.
Now I need to do a minor song in with a group so I need to pay attention to key. The piece I am working on is St. James infirmary. It is in minor and has no accidentals in the melody. I pick up a minor harp, start on blow 4 as the tonic, and I can’t get the notes I need. What the heck! Its first position, all the notes in the key signature should be in the middle octave just like a major harp right?
I did a little work with a tuner, a Lee Oscar natural minor(Am) and a Hohner Special 20 natural minor (Fm) and came up with the following charts (the charts for the harps I don't have are transposed from the ones I do). It turns out that a B minor Special 20 is in the key signature of F# minor, but hole one blow is a B. This means that when playing in B minor you have a G# that is not in the key signature and are missing the G. It is kind of like playing a major tune in second position on a major harp. A B minor Hohner is identical, pitch wise, to a Lee Oscar F# minor harp.
I expect these charts are on the Hohner and Lee Oscar web sites but I present them here side by side for your convenience. I also learned a bit generating the charts.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 18, 2013 10:33 AM
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Pistolcat
441 posts
Jul 18, 2013
10:57 AM
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Dunno about the sp20 but LO:s natural minor is marked in crossharp. That is a LO that says its natural minor Am. Have A as 2 draw. If you play in first position you won't get a natural minor scale...
Do you plan to play with lotsa chords? If you play in fourth position on a regular richter you will have an natural minor scale w/o bending. Not any usable chords though. In third you can stay away from the seven draw and OB the sixth hole instead. St James play splendid in third by the way. You get that i-chord on draw 4-6.
Edit: St James play splendid in third WITHOUT overblows, by the way.
Edit #2: Here's Filip Jers in third pos on a C richtertuned harp St. James: http://open.spotify.com/track/05pwGWYavrHxnEDZMQlR0B
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jul 18, 2013 11:06 AM
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STME58
497 posts
Jul 18, 2013
2:18 PM
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"If you play in first position you won't get a natural minor scale..."
You knew this but, I didn't. I do now.
I agree that 3rd and 4th position are great options for minor. I am in the process of exploring all the options and understanding how they work. I will work on understanding how the the 4-6 draw one cord fits in third.
Thanks for the mention of the Filip Jers piece. I couldn't get it to work on Spotify but I found that piece on the Primus Motor website. Very nice!
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Pistolcat
444 posts
Jul 18, 2013
2:29 PM
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No problem. I think Håkan Ehn has a lesson on YT on how to play Jers version of st James.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jul 19, 2013 5:31 AM
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Martin
417 posts
Jul 18, 2013
2:56 PM
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Easiest way for you is probably just to pick up one of the LO minor tuned harps and start on 2 draw.
Filip Jers plays it in the bottom octave which is rather tough in therms of bending accuracy (I get the feeling you´re somehow on one of the earlier stages of the learning curve); if you play it in the second octave on a standard tuned harp you´ll need an OB.
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nacoran
6951 posts
Jul 18, 2013
3:44 PM
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I play St. James Infirmary on a minor harp, but I also play it on a harmonic minor. They are different keys (my natural minor is a Lee Oskar Fm (Bbd minor in first) and my harmonic minor is a Lee Oskar Ebm. I haven't sat down and figured out which notes would be different in the same key (or if I'm skipping those holes) but just by ear I actually like it better on the harmonic minor.
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Nate
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Pistolcat
445 posts
Jul 19, 2013
1:09 AM
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@nacoran- that's because LO is inconsistent in their labelling. The harmonic minor is labeled in straight harp and their natural minor in cross...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Pistolcat
446 posts
Jul 19, 2013
3:47 AM
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On a standard richter. First position all natural will be major (Ionian), right? Second position all natural will be major (mixolydian), right. That's why we need to bend down that third to get a minor scale like the blues scale. Third position will be minor (Dorian). Fourth will be minor (natural, aeolian), right.
On a LO natural minor harp you have moved the aeolian scale from fourth to second position. Thus first position will have a Dorian scale when you play w/o bends or OB. See? Fourth --> second= third --> first. That means you have to go to twelfth to get a natural playing mixolydian scale.
Even though a natural minor harp has 'altered tuning' its stil DIATONIC. Which means you can play all the same scales when playing NATURAL w/o bends and stuff. They have just moved two positions down.
There are more complications than this of course, such as the root notes of positions have changed holes and stuff, but my head already hurts. As I said in another thread, the position concept on non-standard tunings are more confusing than helping...
Check out the scale-finder! Very useful tool!
http://overblow.com/?menuid=26#
Edit: miss Hvyj...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
Last Edited by Pistolcat on Jul 19, 2013 5:23 AM
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GMaj7
247 posts
Jul 19, 2013
5:19 AM
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Of course, with a little modification and getting used to, you go to minor in spiral tuning. Your blow/draw sequence stays the same across the harp and you can put the root wherever you want. Your bends on the high end become draw bends, the step spacing between the notes is fairly even making the 1/2 steps easy and consistent, and if you do want to throw an OB in there, they are a little easier on a spiral - sort of like the 6 OB.
Probably not what you are looking for but I thought I would plug spiral as I think the future will see a lot of spirals in gig bags on stage.
EDITED: For groggy typos and nonsensical phrases
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
Last Edited by GMaj7 on Jul 19, 2013 5:21 AM
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hooktool
49 posts
Jul 19, 2013
7:48 AM
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Greg made me a nice Seydel spiral tuned harp, I would recommend him. :) It does get confusing, but I sit and play the same tune on the standard richter, spiral, and natural minor to understand what's missing/different. I'm starting to understand it a little by doing-just looking at the note layouts doesn't help me that much.
John
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STME58
498 posts
Jul 20, 2013
7:53 PM
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I got thought St. James Infirmary without major embarrassment (only minor).
I signed up to lead a group at Walt Richards Slo Jam here in San Diego. The format is 4 leaders volunteer to lead a song. The leader comes prepared with the words and chords written on a poster so about 10 musicians can stand around and all read off it. The instruments are mostly guitar, mandolin violin banjo ukulele etc, all acoustic. You don't know who will be in your group until Walt picks them just before you go off and work on the song with your group for about 45 minutes. At the end of the rehearsal time, each group preforms for the larger group. It is a lot of fun. Leading a group was a challenge but I got a lot of help from the more experience members. I was luck to get a skill double bass player in my group to keep the rhythm going.
I did the song in A minor and used a Lee Oscar A minor harp. I found during the rehearsal that I was better able to teach the song and keep the group on track by singing than by playing. We performed it with a harp and bass lead in and then I switched to vocals. A few nice solos on mandolin and banjo and I think we put together a credible piece. I had fun and learned a lot. I also found I can sing OK and be loud enough to keep a group together in a amplified situation.
I appreciate having been pointed to the Primus Motor piece so I had an idea of what a harp, bass and mandolin can do. We did not approach that level of course, but I think everyone was pretty satisfied with what we put together. I will definitely do this again, but I am looking forward to just being one of the musicians at next months meeting.
Pistolcat, thanks for you head spinning description of how the minors are labeled. At least I know I am not the only one who finds this difficult, but not impossible. I did have an incentive to get screwed up though. I ended up buying two new minor harps in keys I did not have, but ended up using a harp I already had.
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Pistolcat
450 posts
Jul 21, 2013
8:11 AM
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Congratulations! Making music with others are just so much better than noodeling in solitude.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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