groyster1
2301 posts
Jul 15, 2013
5:37 AM
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its common knowledge that you cannot get extra notes from 5draw&7blow by bending.....whats to gain by doing it?
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FMWoodeye
746 posts
Jul 15, 2013
5:41 AM
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It's just another nuance to employ as a condiment to your playing. Nuance is the mustard on the hot dog.
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groyster1
2302 posts
Jul 15, 2013
5:53 AM
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it can also damage the reeds....
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The Iceman
1009 posts
Jul 15, 2013
6:10 AM
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Please learn to feel where the "floor" is on these two bends, because they do give you the semi tone below them to within about 50 cents, so can be used effectively either as another note or just as a way to expressively play with those given notes.
If you use finesse, not force, know where that "floor" is and aim about 1 foot above it in your conceptual technique mind set, you won't damage the reeds.
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The Iceman
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Pistolcat
429 posts
Jul 15, 2013
6:40 AM
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I agree with the good Fat Melon and Iceman. Hot dog without mustard is just a dead, boiled pig. Notes without nuances, dynamic attacks, inflection bends and every other technique available (not all at once if course) will be a barren waste of sounds.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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harpdude61
1746 posts
Jul 15, 2013
8:33 AM
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I agree with the analogies here. Just adds flavor.
Good buddy Groyster..I don't understand the reed damage quote. I'm not going to dispute you quite yet, but I would like to understand the physics of what you mean here.
We draw bend on hole 3 which has 1 1/2 step between the single reed pitches, hole 4 which has 1 step between the single reed pitches, and hole 5 which has 1/2 step between single reed pitches.
So with draw bends all you have is what is available between these. Why does the 5 draw strees reeds more?
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The Iceman
1011 posts
Jul 15, 2013
8:50 AM
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"Why does the 5 draw strees reeds more?"
Players bend this reed to the floor and even try to break through to the basement, which over stresses it.
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The Iceman
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groyster1
2303 posts
Jul 15, 2013
9:37 AM
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@harpdude
I believe 5draw is only 1/4 step below.....and it still does not give you any more notes....I think Iceman has the answer to the possible harm...
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ridge
443 posts
Jul 15, 2013
10:09 AM
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This is a cool topic. Personally, I waiver the 5 draw by bending and unbending it.
As already noted, this really should be considered more of a nuance than an outright bend. You can tangibly change the color of the note a little bit. 5 draw is very useful; most players just honk on it and never learn how to coax it properly.
I gained an appreciation for nuancing the 7 blow after hearing Chris Michalek really using it. I then later heard a different variation employed by Mitch Kashmar at HCH 2012 and was blown away by how much "mustard" could be applied to the 7 blow.
Here is 7 blow exemplified by Mitch - skip to 2:53. I suggest listening to the first two minutes because Mitch's explanation of how he came to do this is very good.
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barbequebob
2304 posts
Jul 15, 2013
10:09 AM
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When you try to bend past the floor of the bend, especially if you're a player who uses too much breath force, it stresses the crap out of the reed and it will blow out fast, especially with harps with a tighter slot tolerance and/or a thicker reed plate. You only have 1/4 step bend and if more players took the time to learn where everything is (which also means learning some theory as well), you'd see fewer mistakes and banging on those two holes like that to foce a bend lower than where the floor is does damage causing stress fractures on the reeds, which leads it to going out of tune and eventually blow out. Iceman is dead on the money here.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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harpdude61
1748 posts
Jul 15, 2013
10:20 AM
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What I meant was is the pitch difference between 5 blow and 5 draw is a 1/2 step.
I guess you would stress it more if you try to bend a pitch beyond what is avaiable, but it just seems you could do that with any reed.
I do a lot of throat vibrato on sustained 5 draw, which is a form of bending I suppose.
I've always heard overblowing stresses reeds and I play the heck out of the 6 OB and I don't ever remember that being the first reed to go.
But then their is not really a ceiling on an OB, where there definitely is on a draw or blow bend.
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The Iceman
1012 posts
Jul 15, 2013
10:56 AM
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To fine tune and correct my above post, if you lower the pitch on 5 inhale, you will actually get close to 5 exhale....about 1/4 tone sharp.
Same with 6 hole exhale bend. You will get to 1/4 tone sharp of the 6 hole inhale.
So, in effect, if it is placed correctly, you can use these to your advantage as notes as well as color to the given notes.
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The Iceman
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Grey Owl
205 posts
Jul 15, 2013
10:59 AM
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Good question. Yes a nuance explains it well. I have just checked on a tuner and on my D harp my 5 draw gives me G, and my 5 blow gives me F#. My draw bend gets me close enough to F# to sound ok. So in certain instances I might prefer to play the G to F#(approx) as a seamless slur bend in prefence to playing the separate notes draw 5 and blow 5.
I remember a solo by Howard Levy on a Db harp HOWARD LEVY BLUEBIRD SOLO where I think he plays a kind of 'blow bend' on 5. He doesn't shift down that far in pitch from the normal blow 5 but the 'nuance' suggests a note similar to draw 4 and makes it sound smoother (complimenting the earlier draw 4 to draw 4 bent) than hitting the more separate notes of 5 blow, draw 4. You can hear what I mean at around 7 to 8 secs.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jul 15, 2013 11:27 AM
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Lmbrjak
149 posts
Jul 15, 2013
11:23 AM
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every reed that I've destroyed on my harps has been a 5 draw. I did not know until I came onto this forum that there was no half-step or whole-step bend on 5 draw,but I was trying hard to get them!
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groyster1
2304 posts
Jul 15, 2013
11:37 AM
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the only reed that I can rememberblowing in the past 3or4 years is 5draw....I think it was by overdoing 45 draw warble...which I tend to do....
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MP
2837 posts
Jul 15, 2013
11:48 AM
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hi groyster!
i've said it before but i'll repeat myself. the 5 draw bend is the coolest blue note on the harmonica, if not the entire planet.
it is the 'Blue Note' found in between the black and white keys on the piano. Surely you've heard tell of those elusive notes? :-)
7 blow bend ( done right)is beautiful.
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MP
affordable reed replacement and repairs.
"making the world a better place, one harmonica at a time"
click user name [MP] for info-
repair videos on YouTube.
you can reach me via Facebook. Mark Prados
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jackleg
1 post
Jul 15, 2013
2:16 PM
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mp, good observation.. when i play piano, i always make simultaneous tones, like playing the A and Bb together.. we are trying to play the 'note' that is between the two and this is as close as we can get.. when the human ear hears those two tones at the same time, the brain tricks one into believing that they are hearing the 'note'. how else can a piano player bend??
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Harpaholic
292 posts
Jul 15, 2013
3:56 PM
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Mitch has the sweetest 7 blow bend vibrato on the planet!
I've recently started practicing my bends using a chromatic tuner on my ultimate guitar app.
I was sitting here one day working on my 1st position bends, and thought, hey I wonder if a tuner will work, sure enough it does!
I learned that I was using overdraws and overblows and I wasn't aware of it.
I use it regularly now and it's also a great ear trainer.
I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of it,
but it works!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jul 15, 2013 4:03 PM
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tmf714
1845 posts
Jul 15, 2013
5:25 PM
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Mitch is THE master of the upper register-ALL the blowbends not just the 7-
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