A recent thread on importance of tongue blocking started a fairly wide-ranging discussion, including how many tongue-blockers overbend. Forum member, harpdude61, talked about his ideas regarding throat-bending and using the whole open-throated air column (to drive and control bends and overbends). He suggested that this throat-driven bending method allows him to do all the overbends on harps that he sets up himself by simple gapping. This concept jives with my own experience and got me thinking...
I am a full-time tongue-blocker who is learning to overblow. I'm not great at it yet, but it's good enough to start using in my playing. I'm not great at gapping my harps either, nor do I use harps that are considered to be good for overblowing. I use Big River harps mostly. Despite these obstacles, I've been successful with overblowing, with little or no gapping, initially. Now that I am learning to gap my harps better, my overblows are getting better too.
A key component in overblowing is generating enough "back pressure". When I first started, I did that from the throat. Recently, I've discovered that I can do it directly from my diaphragm, and can relax both my tongue and throat. This lends credence to harpdude61's ideas, I think.
I sat down and made a video to explain what I do when tongue-blocking overblows. This was an off-the-cuff discussion. There is a lot of talk and only a bit of playing to demonstrate. However, I hope you find it interesting, and I'd appreciate any comments you might have, from tongue-blockers or lip-blocker/pursers.
If you want to skip my personal story, you can skip directly to 5:24. This video also demonstrates why harmonica players wear sunglasses, or maybe just why I should ;) ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Jul 14, 2013 5:33 PM
I can vouch for Dennis,being his student and friend- he DEFINITLEY tounge blocks his overblows and overdraws on diatonic AND overblows on chromatic-that's right-CHROMATIC>
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jul 14, 2013 6:27 PM
He does it directly in front of me during lessons-he has given me some pointers on tongue blocking overblows,but he said the rear of the tongue,the arch,is where it comes from-the positioning so to speak. I am not ready to use overblows in my playing yet,but in the not too distant future,I will start incorporating them into my playing-.
First of all, let me say HUGE kudos to Mr.So&So for making this video. I've done it a couple of times myself with hopes that it would convey my ideas better. I would love to see it and gladly be a part of it if ALL levels of players would make videos such as this one, to make the threads better and also help fellow players. Let's do it yall. Great job So&So! First, let me say the only thing I would argue is that you switched to TB to get a fuller sound.I truly believe that a lip blocker can get a deep rich tone as well. I would love to sit down and compare sometime with my peers. You may be correct about one thing, I may be bringing my technique from deeper than I think. I do feel my throat reshaping for blow and draw bends as well as overbends, but I do feel the diaphragm as well. May be a combination. You have my wheels turning. I will explore. Notice his blow bends first. He does not hinge the jaw closed to get blow bends. He is doing it from "the deep" (we'll call it for now). He maintains the texture of his tone and has better control. Squeezing the jaw shut to blow bend shrinks the resonator which changes tone. Using "the deep" to blow bend also enables you to move quickly between other notes you play on the high end of the harp. It also makes precision easier between the 3 pitches of the 10 blow. Jaw closers do not seem to do as well with this. On his draw bends, notice that he maintains his vibrato on the unbent as well as the bent pitch. Another advantage of bringing it from the deep. Tone is maintained here as well because the tongue is down out of the way and NOT shrinking the resonator. Okay, notice on his overblows that he eases into the OB. He stays relaxed, brings it from the deep, and it comes. I think teaching OBs by using the term "pop the OB" is just wrong. It causes new players to tense and release like blowing a balloon until it explodes. Correctly done with good gaping and bringing it from "the deep", overbends take no more effort than any note you play. So&So is doing something I cannot.OB 4,5,6 while tongue blocking. I'm sure it will just get better and better as he works on it. I so appreciate what he has done here that I may gap one of my GMs and send it to him just to see what would happen. My experiences vary with pro players as teachers. Some have the gift and some do not. Dennis G. is a fantastic player and I highly respect his work. I'm betting he is one of the really great teachers. He is also a super nice guy. He may be one of the few tongue block overblowers out there. That said, I don't think he is an authority on the best way to overbend. He may be doing okay, but he himself might think he can do better with overbends. Sure he uses them and they fit, but I have yet to hear any overbend work by a TBer that compares to what lip blockers (pursers) do. I would love to see examples. I may get exactly that from Mr. So &So in the near future. Just to add to this, I am reposting a video I made awhile back on throat bending from a lip blocker. I had spent about three years working on overbends at this point. My video is not as smooth as So&So's. I am a lifetime stutterer and have the east TN mountain accent. I can play fine in front of 500 people but R2D2's eye looking at me makes me nervous. Again, great job Mr. So&So. W need more people like you, forum members that show us instead of tell us.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Jul 15, 2013 2:51 AM
Here's the points I made in the "Importance of Tongue Blocking" thread gathered together. Hopefully it might help explain to people how to do them.
I don't use overblows much in my playing, but I do practice them just in case I feel the need to use them at any point. I always play them tongue blocked. I use tongue blocking on everything except blow bends and sometimes the 1 hole, which I play lip pursed mostly.
I'm not really any good at explaining things like this, but here's the way I do overblows tongue blocked. I simply kind of arch up the middle of my tongue and direct the airflow over the top of it. I learnt to do it by using the bend hole 6 method. Keep that shape and then blow instead of draw. The overblow pops out pretty easily. I can't sustain them for long and I certainly can't alter their pitch the way the good overblow players can do. I mostly use the centre right side tip of my tongue lightly pressed against the harp and flattened. So it's kind of like the top of my tongue on the centre right hand side tip, if that makes any sense. I block holes 3,4 & 5 when playing 6 OB and play out of the right side of my mouth.
"I would love to see it and gladly be a part of it if ALL levels of players would make videos such as this one, to make the threads better and also help fellow players."
You asked for it harpdude. I am a bit over three years into trying to seriously learn this thing. I had just a passing interest in overblows. I thought, I better learn the basics first. I sat in at a Howard Levy seminar last year; he made it look so easy. Christelle has also shown me how she does it. But I got some kind of breakthrough today. Tried it on different harps, none of which has been set up for overblows. Some success. Pretty? No. Consistent? Far from it. I am really posting this for the other N008s out there. My message is don't despair and you don't need a $150 harp to do it (although I wouldn't mind getting one one day). Cheers.
Kingley I'm gonna play with my TBing some more. This thread has enticed me to devote more time to it. Bronze Wailer those OBs are coming along nicely. Like So&So you have just a slight slight delay in the OB sounding and it comes in a hair flat. It just takes time. The throat makes more controlled air available sooner which eliminates these issues. Good start and good tone. Thanks for sharing!
I really like these types of threads, Thanks mr so&so % co for posting the vids. Always interested in how guys approach playing the harp and the techniques they use.
Are you TB guys aware of what you tongue is doing in the creation of the OB? Is it similar to Kingley's description?
It is clear from the above examples that TB OB's are possible. I know this from personal experience as I have played alongside a guy called James from my district in the UK and have heard him playing overblows and overdraws tongue blocked. In fact he plays everything TB as he can't Lip block
Here is a sample of him playing including OB's and OD's. It's not a performance piece but a peek into his woodshedding which throws up some cool ideas.
I personally still can't create the focused air pressure to OB TB'd though I have made some progress with draw bends - plenty of work to do.
I put up a vid a while ago on how to overblow hole 6 by approaching it via a blow bend on 7 (this example is Lip blocked). This is nothing new and I am no expert or teacher but it is an approach that helped me, so for what it's worth HEREit is. ----------
There was a time where I was working a lot on tongue-blocked overblows (also the 1o with the tongue on the right side of my mouth), because Dennis Gruenling was doing it all the time and I transcribed many solos of him (even some with chromatic). I tongue blocked everything, but then I switched back to more puckering. Tongue-blocked overblows are really not as save to play as puckered ones. Especially live on stage you can even hear Dennis overblows sometimes a bit scratchy. There is kind of a risk if you don't have a well-setup harp. In some situations it's useful.
There has been a discussion in a german harmonica forum where I uploaded these examples: http://www.box.net/shared/xyxopte0bk (D Harp with extreme OB Bends and Vibrato TB) http://www.box.net/shared/5r45ek45bv (Ab harp TB) http://www.box.net/shared/su4si07zy3 (Ab Harp TB) http://www.box.net/shared/79ekceg9mr (puckered) http://www.box.net/shared/e0rvftlolg (TB)
I hope that was helpful! I actually do them 90% puckered.
Greetings Konstantin ---------- www.konstantinreinfeld.com
Good thread! Fantastic overblowing, Konstantin! Now, another beginner's point of view. I have played for about 2,5 years. Overblowing isn't harder than other bending in regards of making it sound good. The three hole draw bends still eludes me on (many) occasion.
I agree with all of the other contributors videos here. You nee good support. You can TB or use any other embouchure. I, myself, can't TB overblows.
My additional point is that you can give your OBs different sound. I use it as a 'bend-until-fail' kind of note. Like a high bend on a guitar. BUT I also use it as a full note and in those cases I believe one shouldn't always 'pop' it. If you have good support you can go directly at it, in pitch, without the detour of choking the blow reed. I try to give some examples in my video. The 'music' I'm noodeling at is nothing to hang in the Christmas tree, as we say in Sweden, but I hope you can hear non-popped OBs. There are a lot more than I point at in the vid.
Sorry, I am at vacation and posted and recorded only thru my iPhone. Can't embed. Harp is a self-gapped MBD in Bb.
Amazing pistolcat...I use the 6 ob the same way as you in 3rd position. A way of riding over the 6 draw with a passing note and right back to 6 draw. Once you get your OBs going I also do what pistol does. I practice going up and down up and down. 6 blow 6 draw bent 6 draw 6 overblow 6 draw 6 draw bent 6 blow Learning to do this quickly and cleanly will surely take your playing up a notch. Also, when practicing this drill, try minimizing the change in embrochure. This is where my throat technique helps me. Pretty much the only thing that changes for me between these pitches is the shape of the throat and the air direction in or out. Folks that bend with the tongue more please chime in. I'm with Iceman. I cannot overblow TBed....nor can I blow bend TB. It frustrates me because I can get good single note tone TBing. Grey Owl, I guess that is the first TBed overdraws I have heard. On the 9 hole as well. I like the 9 od in 3rd position also to get the flat five.
@harpdude61, by "fuller" sound all I mean is sounding multiple notes at once. I found that when I was lipping I tended to stay in that embouchure and not do as many splits and octaves, etc. as I would like. In TB embouchure I do a lot of that, and slaps and pulls, while remaining in my default situation. I know it is possible to do the equivalents LP, and I may have got more comfortable with that had I not done my TB experiment. Now I'm working at things from the other perspective and searching for the limits of that.
@Grey Owl, I had forgotten about Shoulders. Thanks for that video, including TB overdraws. Regarding the tongue position, it definitely has has to be in the right place to make things happen, but I'm finding that as I get better at this, my tongue and throat become more relaxed. It feels like they are not the "drivers" of OB and blow bends, rather the initiation and control comes from the diaphragm. I recall that when I first did TB blow bends, I would push my tongue forward and jam it against the comb. Now it is very relaxed. My goal is to figure out the minimal necessary muscle involvement and relax everything else. As I do this, I find that breath control and diaphragmatic breathing is fundamental.
@Konstantin, You are the man. This is the type of evidence from a skilled pro player that I've been looking for. I'd be interested in your comments about this idea of "throat bending" and driving overblows from deep in the throat or from the diaphragm, LP or TB or both. And I agree that OBs seem more sure from LP. I'll have to see how far I take it TB. I'm glad to hear that overdraws and bending OBs is possible in TB.
I second harpdude61's call for more show-and-tell videos from people who are learning, as well as pros who are teaching, so we can all learn from each other. It does help to be able to see and hear what a person is doing. So bring 'em on. But I'm relieved nobody's panned me yet... ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Jul 15, 2013 10:06 AM
I was just checking and my tongue is moving a little bit up when overblowing tongue-blocked. It's like a ''kch'' sound that gets lower and closer to ''kr'' for the lower overblows (especially on the 1, which I would do with tongue in the left side of your mouth)
Best Konstantin ---------- www.konstantinreinfeld.com
I tongue block everything and actually can't pucker anymore as I don't see a need. It is simply much more efficient to leave the tongue on the harp at all times. I can barely notice a change in mouth position when playing overblows. It is important to not press harder with the mouth or tongue when overblowing while tongue blocking it should all be done with a change in the adam's apple. Do not bear down or close the mouth tighter. Try to cover the full 4 holes as when you have a relaxed TB embouchure. This allows for octave switching as well from overblow notes, an area which almost no harp players are using but is huge in many kinds of music. Hope it helps.
The key word is "might" tmf714. Don't try to turn this great thread into another one of your dramas. I'm not the only one that mentioned it in this thread. As super awesome as he is, I'm sure Dennis does not think he is perfect. Dennis is likely one of, if not the top tongue block overblowers out there. Please, ask or share with him anything you like. If he wants to talk harp on the phone with me, that would really be awesome as well. Anyone who thinks they do not have anything to improve on is in a dream world. I LOVE to hear great TBing! Wish I could do it like some of you cats do! It surely has some great techniques that are not as pronounced or even available lip blocking. Lip blocking has at least one advantage over tongue blocking. It is not the ability to overblow or overdraw, but rather the finesse factors of overbending....the pitch control, clean bending and wailing, rich vibrato, the ability to play it so well it does not change the flavor of tone and timbre,speed movements, plus more. Like Adam said, the percent of TB overblowers is small and for good reason. Just not enough evidence to dispute my opinions. I hope how soon my opinion is wrong. That means that harp players have yet again taken this tiny tin sandwich to a new level. I also believe that the diatonic harmonica is one of the few musical instruments that still has techniques being discovered and explored. Amazing when you think about it. I myself am working on some stuff that I consider innovative and unexplored. Who says a local yocal can't come up with something new and innovative just as well as a touring/recording pro?
@tmf: It's possible that Dennis wants you to be his representative on the MBH forum--and a passionate advocate you are!--but it's also possible that if you let him know that we're having a genuinely interesting and cooperative discussion here and that his name has come up, he might actually show up and participate. He is a member here and can speak for himself. Or at least he was a member, last time I looked.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 15, 2013 7:42 PM
No drama intended here- just that I know Dennis is comfortable with his overblowing-no need to prove anything on this forum for him,or to anyone for that matter.
I am surely NOT his representitive-he simply does not have the time for ANY forum debates or chat.
Being a touring musician,with two new CD's and a lot of dates that carry him through October and beyond,he certainly more important matters to attend to.
I can speak about Dennis and his techniques because I know them first hand-I spent a lot of time helping with the last tour and studio work on both new CD's- I won't share anything personal here,but I can tell you he is very busy,and we are close friends-.
"Lip blocking has at least one advantage over tongue blocking. It is not the ability to overblow or overdraw, but rather the finesse factors of overbending....the pitch control, clean bending and wailing, rich vibrato, the ability to play it so well it does not change the flavor of tone and timbre,speed movements, plus more." -harpdude61
This isn't true. There is no difference. It's all a matter of practice. The only thing that lip pursers can do that TB's can't is using the tongue to articulate. Even then it's a matter of practice as I use glottal stops to articulate same as lip pursing. Both are essential techniques it's just I find TB to be the path of least resistance as I never have to take my tongue off the harp and thus expend less effort than a person who uses LP and TB because I never have to "switch". I think this allows me to have a more efficient technique overall. But ultimately it's what you practice the most that is the most comfortable and works best, but it's objectively all the same. ---------- Andrew Larson, R.N.
"Lip blocking has at least one advantage over tongue blocking. It is not the ability to overblow or overdraw, but rather the finesse factors of overbending....the pitch control, clean bending and wailing, rich vibrato, the ability to play it so well it does not change the flavor of tone and timbre,speed movements, plus more." -harpdude61
One thing I haven't mentioned is that I find it far easier to play overblows tongue blocked than blow bends. I guess it's because I learnt to play blow bends lip pursed first. I can achieve the blow bends tongue blocked but find I have much better control over them when played lip pursed rather than tongue blocked. Which is weird because I learnt to tongue block everything else on the harp from day one so I guess that's why I find playing overblows tongue blocked easier than lip pursed. Even though I can also do them lip pursed. Another thing is I don't notice any tonal difference between playing overblows tongue blocked or lip pursed.
I can't play overdraws at all. Maybe someone has some tips on how to play them?
Last Edited by Kingley on Jul 16, 2013 12:34 AM
I mentioned TB OB with my teacher, who is a well-known pro player. He Lips OBs, but said he'd give TB a go. Maybe he was messin with me, but he hit it pretty much straight off the bat and spent some time messing with it. After a couple minutes he concluded it was actually easier for him to control TBd. I dunno. I can barely do it but when I do it will be TB. ----------
Kingley. I haven't found the need as yet to play overdraws but I have tried them.
The way I started to do them LP is to try to do a draw bend on hole 7, the draw reed choked and nothing sounded I then maintained my mouth shape and increased the draw pressure and lo and behold the blow reed sounded the overdraw. I imagine that the same kind of technique will work for TB.
It wasn't pretty but at least I had something to work with. Later on it became more natural to apply the draw bend mouth shape and necessary air pressure required to instantaneously hit the overdraw. Setting the gaps a little tighter as per the Joe Spiers vids helps a lot.
I was surprised initially at just how much air pressure I needed to apply (much more so than the OB) to get the overdraw, but that was more likely to do with the clumsiness of my early approach to the technique as it has got better. ----------
tmf and Michael...just show me the money..show me an example of Dennis or anyone playing a TB 7 overdraw, then rolling into a 6 OB, similar to what I do in the above video. Show me a 10 overdraw on a C harp with vibrato...at 2:40 in my video above you hear me bending the 6 OB up two 1/2 steps which takes me to the first postiton root note of C. Heck, I'm an avanced novice. I can gladly provide more examples of why overbends are more in the favor of lip blockers/pursers. The defense rests until more evidence can be brought forward.
If you can purse and don't see a need to ever use it then that is fine.
Funny about me. I have no problem at all playing splits..while fluttering or what ever. I use them a LOT in 2,3, and 5 positions. No problem moving from splits to lip blocked notes including overbends. I just need a lot of work on side TBing.
It may be a softer and more inclusive approach not to treat these subjects and this forum like a court of law needing constant proof (show me the money).
A lot of contributors and artists may not have the time or ability to comply. (For instance, I still don't have a computer w/camera nor the knowledge of how to make videos).
You have something to offer, as do all those with different viewpoints.
Everyone can benefit from those that contribute without the pressure to do more or prove it.
I don't have time for show and tell, but I have no problem bending overblows/overdraws or sustaining them with vibrato with TB. Not a big deal, thats just how I first learned to do them. On a C harp, bending the 6OB up to the D not a problem. All the reed cares or knows as far as player input is the pressure differentials and the tuning of the resonant chamber that it's presented with. Not embouchre. I can do this stuff either way, it's all the same. Think of it as impedance matching. ---------- Custom Harmonicas ---------- edited to correct captcha induced problems
Last Edited by harpwrench on Jul 16, 2013 7:45 AM
THanks harpwrench! The bottom line seems to be it is not near as common to see a TB overbender in the pro harmonica world. Not that it matters. You could probably help me get TB overblows. Do you agree that you are probably in a minority of OBers?? Didn't you mean bending the 6 hole ob up to the C on a C harp?
Geez..Ice..the court thing is all in jest...court..jest..jester..get it?? Sorry King Ice..won't happen again.
You don't have to stop your life and make a pro video. Heck, if you have time to surf on here, then you have time to surf youtube or recordings for examples. That's all.
Still, a great way to contribute is to make low quality quick videos. Turn your cell phone around and shoot for minute. Takes no longer than typing a post. We are not discussing art paintings..we are talking about music here. Iceman, you are helpful to a lot of new players with your posts. Just thing how much you could help by hearing and watching a newbie for 30 seconds.
If a picture is worth a thousand words...then a youtube video is worth a 11,629 words!
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Jul 16, 2013 8:03 AM
My cell phone is old and only holds very low quality 30 second videos w/terrible sound quality.
am not a fan of the latest technology....yet.
Also, like harpwrench, my time is valuable and spent mostly on my gourmet food enterprise, so really don't sit in front of computer surfing youtube.
During breaks, I do have time to check this forum and offer suggestions, though.
ps...comments like King Ice don't seem to take these interactions in a positive direction. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 16, 2013 8:21 AM
No, I meant the D. Yes the majority of OBers pucker, no chit....again TBing them doesn't make me special, it's just how I learned. If you truly play from the throat I dont see what the problem is with you finding them, theyre right there. Also was surprised from Barrett's interviews that many of the blues pros do not TB the blow bends or in some cases lower draw bends either. Play your own game, what works for you isn't best for everyone. ---------- Custom Harmonicas
I'm honoured that my post has generated such great responses.
@MichaelAndrewLo (Andrew), Glad to see you back and thanks for your replies. I mentioned in the previous thread linked in my original post that you inspired me to really give TB a fair trial by doing it full time. So thanks, I'm still at it, and concur with your observations about TB OBs. My Adam's apple also goes up when I OB, maybe not as pronounced when I really try to initiate it with my diaphram, but it still happens. I'm starting to think that the diaphramatic support is mostly useful to provide control.
@harpwrench, Thanks for your comments. This is valuable information that is not well known among even the pros. Many TBers, including myself, have spent time at Dave Barrett's site and seen those great interviews. It can only help to advance the "state of the harp" when the facts shine a light on the folklore. I agree that it's what works for the individual player that counts, but many players don't even try certain things if they think they are not possible, so then how do they find what will work best?
@pistolcat, great video. Some good tips in there, and nice playing.
@The Iceman, it's getting easier and easier to make videos. I use a small, inexpensive video camera (Kodak Zi8, might be available very cheap used), then just transfer the files to computer and upload. Newer cameras and phones will let you upload directly to YT via wireless. The trouble with phones is that they don't have a tripod mount. I understand that you have better things to do, and that is fair enough. ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Jul 16, 2013 10:15 AM
Just to concur with Joe, I've been LP'ing for the last two years and my main squeeze at the moment is one of Brendan Power's X Reed SUB 30's, which has no overblows.
I just pulled out my Spiers MB in C and TB overblowed it immediately.
I'd suggest learning all ways. I changed from TB to LP to free up my tongue for more staccato stuff, a'la Ricci, but once you learn this stuff, it's like riding a bike.
"- it's the same? technique, just done with your tongue on the harp and your airstream off of the side of your tongue. Naturally, it helps when you are comfortable and used to the tongue-blocking embouchure, since it takes some getting used to it, especially if you are used to puckering overbends."
harpwrench..with all due respect, in my video, I do a bit of first position on a C harp and bend the 6 overblow up two 1/2 steps to the root note C...same as 7 blow. If you are bending the 6 overblow up to D, then you are bending it up four 1/2 steps. You are da man if you do this TBing.
tmf he is truly awesome in that video...I really dig his phrasing, dynamics, feel, and flair.
That is some seriously stellar playing and just confirms why everyone should listen to Dennis Gruenling's harp work at some point in their learning and also why Jason Ricci is such a big fan of Dennis. I don't think I've ever heard anyone play as many overblows in one song as Dennis does in that video.
Stevelegh I have a couple of harps that will bend up four 1/2 steps on certain overblows. What do you mean by reed interaction. The blow reed is still while the draw reed sounds the OB.
Actually, it is possible to bend the 6 overblow up 6 semitones. Yes, 6. I have several Spiers harps (even in higher keys like D) that will do this, which means on a C harp, I can bend the 6 overblow up to an E, however, this doesn't mean it's always necessarily musical or useful, but it is certainly possible.
I've covered the same topic the last few years at SPAH in my overblow seminars, though I will probably not teach it again this year - I just wanna hang out and have a good time this year.
TJ Klay is another player who frequently bends the 6 overblow up to a D, and has some recorded examples of this on his recent CD's.
In the opening music to some of my YouTube videos, I bend the 6 overblow up 4 semitones (to a B) on a B-Radical in the key of A. Again, I don't care for the sound of it that often, but it is possible.
On my project I've been been working on forever, I bend a 4 overblow on a D harp up 4 semitones.
I may be wrong here, but from what I understand, a reed will only bend or overblow according to it's corresponding reed. Hence the 5 draw and 7 blow only being able to bend so far, but not to a full semitone.
I've just tried to squirt a 5 overblow up 4 semitones, but no joy. I think we're in the realm of learning something new and highly technical if one of our more learned brothers would be so good as to explain how overblows work.
