kudzurunner
4155 posts
Jul 13, 2013
7:48 AM
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I don't believe we've yet had a practical discussion of how you break down gigs of certain lengths in terms of number & length of sets.
The Blues Doctors had a 4-hour gig last night: 10 PM to 2 AM. We were told in advance that it should start on time and that the crowd didn't really show up until after midnight.
How would you divide sets and lengths on that sort of gig? If you do three 60 minute sets with 20 minute breaks, you end up at 1:40 with 20 more minutes to play. You also stop your second set at the evening's peak hour: 12:20, when the big surge has just happened.
I decided that we'd start with a 60 (I'll abbreviate), take 20 or so, then play a long second set.
We played 10 to 11, ll:25 to 12:50 or 12:55, and 1:15 to 2. One last song was demanded and we played it.
That worked. The long second set broke the back of the gig in a good way; it got us over the hump. We just played and played until I looked at my watch and said, "Hey, time for a break!" I didn't intend to play a 90, but that's pretty much what we did. I think the long second set in a three-set night is the way to play a 4-hour gig. Your thoughts?
And what about two- and three-hour gigs?
When we play a two-hour gig, we play just under an hour--call it 55--and take about 15 minutes, then play another 50 or 55.
A three-hour gig we tend to play like this: 60 on, 15 off, 60 on, 15 off, and finish with a 30.
Share your practical suggestions, please. Also, have you ever played gigs longer than 4 hours? Satan and Adam used to play a 10 to 3:30 AM gig on Bleecker Street. Never again!
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 13, 2013 7:52 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
886 posts
Jul 13, 2013
8:02 AM
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full hour first set
then
break then play to end of the hour for rest
no long sets
no short sets
exceptions allowed
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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LSC
467 posts
Jul 13, 2013
8:38 AM
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First off I hate four hour gigs. I won't take one unless the pay is in proportion. Having said that, how to break up a night varies with the situation. How sticky is the owner/promoter over start/stop times? What is the crowd flow like in terms of arrival and departure? Those sort of things.
More or less the standard form for bar/restaurant gigs is 45 on 15 off, starting at a quarter past the hour. The start after the top of the hour is usually okay because at bar gigs people don't usually arrive in numbers at the beginning of an evening and even if they do, 15 past is no big deal. It allows you to finish the night on the hour which is usually more important due to licensing laws.
When you get into the meat of the evening the middle sets can sometime run long just because the fun level is up. The shorter last set is again usually okay as the place starts to empty a bit the later it gets and you've done your job anyway.
In summary, I go with the flow. The vast majority of bar owners/managers aren't really sticklers for strict times, especially if you sort of let them know what you're doing in advance. All they care about is how much alcohol are you selling and is the crowd digging it.
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LSC
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LSC
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harmonicanick
1991 posts
Jul 13, 2013
10:35 AM
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In the UK, I would say IMHO, that a 4 hour gig is unheard of.
9-11 pm is what I do almost always, with a 15 minute break.
Lately we have had just an hour at festivals locally
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LSC
468 posts
Jul 13, 2013
11:20 AM
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@harmoicanick - Yeah, 2x45 was the norm in the UK and everywhere in Europe that I played. I've had it happen on occasion where the landlord wanted us to play an additional set, to which I replied, "Notes for notes."
On that note (boom boom), I friend told me a story about doing a well paid gig in Holland at a private party with a fairly well known Dutch guitar player. They did two sets and the guy who hired them wanted another set. They were on 1500 Euros which they had already been paid in cash. The band leader says, "Sure. We'll do another set for 1500 Euros. The guy ponies up the cash and they do another set. Place is going nuts and the party giver wants yet more. Band is shattered and doesn't want to do anymore. Cash man pleads for just one more song. Band leader says, "We'll do one more song for 1500 Euros." The party givers coughed up the cash again and the band goes out and does one more song. It came as no surprise that the party giver was found shot dead out on the highway a couple of weeks later. Police called it a drug deal gone wrong. True story. I knew both the band and the party guy and read about the shooting in the paper.
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LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Jul 13, 2013 11:22 AM
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harmonicanick
1992 posts
Jul 13, 2013
11:37 AM
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"Notes for notes."
Love it..you are a man after my own heart..
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Rick Davis
2104 posts
Jul 13, 2013
11:56 AM
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A 4-hour gig is pretty much the standard for blues bands in bars. We play a longer first set, about 70 minutes, then two shorter sets. I insist that breaks be no longer than 15 minutes. The last set might go past the end time if the crowd is still big and rowdy.
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harpdude61
1740 posts
Jul 13, 2013
11:57 AM
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All we play is 4 hour gigs. I find my aging bladder does much better taking 3 breaks over 4 hours. I am a stickler for starting and stopping on time. I find audiences are ready for a break, but don't want you to be away too long. The venues around here don't like 20 to 25 minute breaks.
This is what we do in 4 hours.
50 play
15 break
50 play
15 break
50 play
15 break
45 play
= 240 minutes or 4 hours
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nacoran
6923 posts
Jul 13, 2013
12:45 PM
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1 hour, run a marathon in 2 hrs. flat, 1 hour!
Our longest gig was a little over an hour, but we played straight through, opening for some friends, and that destroyed my back and feet. Heel spurs are miserable. It didn't help that we were smooshed in so tight that we couldn't even shift our weight. I think for a longer gig I'd need a stool, even although I have lost some weight since that gig. (The band has lost even more- we fired the lead singer!)
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Nate
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arnenym
168 posts
Jul 13, 2013
2:03 PM
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In Sweden is 3 x 45 minutes standard time for gig on bars.
But there is some places want us to play longer. We use to play 10 to 01.30 gigs on Stampen in Stockholm old town. 55-55-60 minutes and there is a schedule sitting on the wall. 20 minute break. The only time you're allowed to break is the stop time. There is another band playing too and we overlap in time. Often we do 60 + 20 minutes at the last set. I use to be at home at 03.30 in the morning...
After those gigs it take two days to be normal again.
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harpletunnel
37 posts
Jul 13, 2013
2:04 PM
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4 hour gigs are common here in California but I don't have a set way to do the gigs because you must play your crowd. Do it wrong and you lose them. My next gig is a 2 1/2 hour gig next Saturday at the Stanislaus county fair and I will let the bass and drums take a short break in the middle with my guitar player and I doing about 4 songs together to keep the music going. Truth is I can play a long time without breaks and many times I play solo during band breaks because I cannot get enough. Although I am taking a break now from woodshedding yes but the corners of my mouth are bleeding so I am calling it justified. I think I got the play till you bleed tip from Adam. One thing I do about breaks at gigs is to let my players know I want them back in 15, NOT 20. I don't have that problem right now because after many many bands and players I now have some great guys backing me and breaks aren't their number one priority. I played last night for 4 hours and came home at 2 am and did more woodshedding. That can't be right. Sorry if none of this makes sense.
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robbert
218 posts
Jul 13, 2013
2:36 PM
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We regularly play restaurants, wine tasting rooms and cafes. It seems to require mostly a three hr commitment. Usually, 45 min playing, 15 min break.
However, if it's a lively evening, we play through breaks until things quiet down, then we'll break.
In those venues, it's easy to read the energy and play accordingly.
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walterharp
1134 posts
Jul 13, 2013
3:45 PM
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our bar gigs are not so strictly timed per se, but the bar owners want us on most of the time from 10 to 1:30
Being old guys we usually try to negotiate for earlier or just do Saturday nights.. Typically 50 minute sets, 15 minute breaks, shorter if we will lose the crowd, if the bar is emptying then last one gets cut short. We have our fans that always show up for the early set and then go home, so if lots of them are there we stretch it to keep them in longer. Then the owner likes us because we are filling his bar at a time when it is usually slower and the older crowed drinks more expensive stuff and tips better.
For the 2 hour ones, one 10 minute break
one hour, no breaks.
30 or 45 minute ones at the few festivals we have done are the hardest, got to set up damn quick or you eat all your time.. and it takes us a while to really get cooking
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kudzurunner
4156 posts
Jul 13, 2013
4:00 PM
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I think I was spoiled by moving from the bar circuit to a regional/national touring thing. Once we had agency representation, we almost never played more than two 60 minute sets as a contracted show. Festival sets range from 45 to 90 minutes. Headliners often do a 75-90 minute set. Openers to 45 or even occasionally 35. Lesser to mid-range acts--which is what we were--do a 60 at festivals. At NOLA I believe we did a 50. At a typical contracted blues bar or folk club gig, S&A did 2 x 60 with a break somewhat longer than 15 minutes. A few times we played 2 x 75. Once or twice we played places where they turned the house. In many of these gigs, we had a local opening act.
Three 60s or even three 45s is something we almost never got asked to do--and if we had been asked, our agency would have tried to trim it down.
But as a bar player in NYC, yes, the four-hour gig was standard. I seem to remember many bands doing that in three sets, with one of the sets somewhat longer than an hour. The default set length was an even 60, not 45. I rarely remember getting asked to do four sets over a four-hour period, as harpdude describes. (I was a sideman, not a bandleader, so what we did wasn't my decision.) But occasionally on Saturday night I remember cranking back into gear for a fourth set.
I honestly can't remember the last time I had a four-set gig.
I think each city/town/locale works slightly differently, which is why I asked the question.
I think restaurant gigs work slightly differently than bar gigs. I think the 45 on / 15 off is more common in restaurants. When people are dancing--as they were last night--I think that blues bands in bars tend to go with the flow. If they're dancing and drinking, you and the bar are having a good time and everybody wants the music to keep going.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jul 13, 2013 4:03 PM
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The Iceman
997 posts
Jul 13, 2013
4:56 PM
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Protocol set by musician's union in the 70's was 40 minutes on, 20 minute break.
If the ending of the gig was right on the hour and it started right on the hour, sometimes I would play 45 minutes w/20 minute break to move sets to correspond with start/end commitment.
I don't think a talented hard working unit should be made to play more than 45 minutes before taking a break.
Sometimes, even as an audience member, I found long sets (1 hour or more) to be fatiguing to my ears.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jul 13, 2013 4:57 PM
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12gagedan
269 posts
Jul 13, 2013
7:30 PM
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We just did a 2-hr lunch gig in Cambridge. Played right through. It started empty, but when a break made sense, we had a crowd. In 9-1 gigs, I target 3x 50 minute sets. However, the second set is usually when the crowd is into it. Those sets can easily go 75-80 minutes. It's all about selling beer. You then do a short 3rd set for the die hards. Another related discussion ( that's still on topic) is how you actually build those sets. I tend to start sets with medium intensity, grow it, give a rest and then end really intense. Sometimes we start a set really strong. It's important to choose tunes and energy with purpose. Also, its important to spread out grooves and keys.
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12gagedan's YouTube Channel
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Jehosaphat
503 posts
Jul 13, 2013
9:28 PM
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4 hour bar gigs are the norm here.
45 minutes, 15 minute breaks.
Dynamics are important too.One band I was in the guy who was the leader,vocalist and guitar player had no sense of 'performance'.You'd work your ass off to get the punters up on their feet booogieing and he'd call for a slow blues.Everyone would sit down and you'd have to start all over again.Plus he would have up to 5 different guitars on a rack behind him and would change for just about every tune.
A right pain in the ass.
Trouble is he owned the PA.............
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mastercaster
16 posts
Jul 14, 2013
12:09 AM
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My thoughts are simple ... if you have the luxury to plan the duration of your sets .. that's a good thing !
Each venue , crowd and boss being different ,
if it's possible to make the set duration at the gig, during the performance based on whatever factors are important .. great ! If a long 2nd set (90min) takes you over the hump & the boss man (or woman) is agreeable .. why not : )
At the end of the day ... and after all the bs that has to be contended with in the industry .... band members , bar owners , restaurant, touring etc .... any performer/entertainer should imo , remember & consider the fact that they are fortunate to be able to reach the public .. make folks want to listen to their story's, dance or cry in their beers ... and make some change ($$) doing it : )
If you can make the job more agreeable by arranging the sets to each venue .. very cool .
Back in the day ....
From the late 70's through 91' in the Ca. & Or. bar scene
5 sets the norm , 4 sets occasionally
9pm - 2 am bar time was common , sometimes 9 - 1,
bar clocks were set 15 minutes fast to clear out the folks before actual legal closing time at 2am ...
45 on - 15 off
In the bars, rarely changed that routine ...
No breaks longer than 20 min. ever , in the venues i've played ..
Where I live now .. a tourist destination in se asia , i can't work in the industry due to local laws , but, still spend a decent amount of time on the bandstand, to get my fix & reach the crowd .. when so inclined ..
The local guy's in my town work:
2 sets - 3 hrs total
80 min. on - 20 off
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jbone
1298 posts
Jul 14, 2013
3:17 AM
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Read your manager at the club and read your crowd. If you're getting good response keep going! Taking a break at the wrong time will lose some audience and managers notice this stuff at pay time.
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6SN7
332 posts
Jul 14, 2013
4:53 AM
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A "4 hour gig" is the norm with bars where I live though how one structures the sets in different from bar at bar. Some of the bars I work in serve food, so if they are running super busy at the time of our gig start, they will ask us to hold off on the music for 15-20 minutes or ask us to play some "eating music," which is usually a short set of easy listening.
We plan on a 75 minute first set plus 2-60 minutes sets with 15 minutes breaks. Adding this up leaves out an additional 20 minutes of time. Rarely does any club ask us to play to closing, they usually ask us to wrap it up at quarter to the hour so the staff has 15 minutes to close the bar (cops are strict about closings in outr area.) Plus there is factor of "bartime" vs "realtime" as the bar clock is sometimes 15 minutes ahead of the real time.
Our set list include about 40-45 songs plus about 10 others that we use to do or are crowd favs that we do not do regularly. The other night, the crowd was grooving and the dance floor was active. It was a good scene and we wanted to keep the groove going. A dancer asked us if we could do some Wislon Pickett numbers. Now we normally don't do his stuff, but we did a medley of Midnight Hour and Mustang Sally. Not my fav tunes but I enjoy the challenge of playing an unplanned tune and keeping the activity going in the room.
As for the standard union start/stop times. well, you pull that on the manager and that will be your last gig at the bar. Too much competetion. We have learned to plan the evening but to also plan plenty of "audibles." Those kind of challenges keep it interesting.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Jul 14, 2013 4:57 AM
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harmonicanick
1993 posts
Jul 14, 2013
9:47 AM
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I am in awe of you guys in America with your 4 hour gig's.
I am completely knackered after 2 hours, and that is sitting down as well
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timeistight
1291 posts
Jul 14, 2013
10:17 AM
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Years ago I saw Nathan and the Zydeco Cha-Chas at El Sid-o's, Nathan's brother's club in Lafayette, La. The band took the stage early -- maybe 8:30 or 9:00 -- and they never left. They went right from one tune to the next hardly pausing. I don't think they even introduced the band.
They didn't even break when Sid took the mic to announce the door prize winners; they stayed onstage tapping their feet impatiently until they play again. They were still rocking the place when we left, exhausted at the end of the night.
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thorvaldsen76
167 posts
Jul 14, 2013
10:20 AM
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Here in Norway, the most common is 2x60 with a 20-25 min break between sets. But when we play, the second set often lasts 75 min if the place is cooking.
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The Iceman
999 posts
Jul 14, 2013
10:51 AM
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Regarding early sets during dinner/before the crowd arrives, we used to have the ol' mellow "dinner set" in readiness if this was the case.
In regards to when the crowd gets agoin' a little later - if they started raising energy during the end of our second or third set, we had a philosophy on how to control this aspect....mainly, we controlled/played the back ground music during the breaks (through the PA).
So, crowd comes in, high energy gets 'em goin during the last 15 minutes of third set, as soon as we'd break, I'd punch in our house music...choosing high energy music and turning it up a bit to keep that vibe going during our 20 minute break.
Then, we'd get all ready to play, punch out the back ground music and start the tune immediately.
Not enough bands understand this concept of total energy control for a whole evening.
Too many rely on that bartender to eventually turn on the crappy house music after 5 minutes of silence at the end of a set.
Also too many bands don't know how to hit the stage after a break and hit it right away instead of turning off the house music and dinking around for five minutes noodling and tuning up.
The less dead air between sets/breaks and the more consistent the music energy level blends works to keep your crowd where you want'em.
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The Iceman
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harmonicanick
1994 posts
Jul 14, 2013
11:20 AM
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Fascinating thread, it seems our American friends work a lot harder than us Europeans!
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Kingley
2886 posts
Jul 14, 2013
11:34 AM
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Nick - Well us Brits in general can be a pretty lazy lot. I've played with numerous people over the years who wouldn't travel more than forty miles to play a gig. No matter how much it paid or how prestigious it was. Then complain all the time that they weren't playing better venues and bigger stages. I've played with guys who won't set up or break down the bands gear and will only move their own stuff. I've played with loads that always turn up late, don't learn the set, get drunk or stoned and then play over everyone else all night. A lot of Brits seem to treat a gig as a night out and not a job that they are being paid to do.
I'd happily play four hour gigs for the right money. I've done a few four or five hour gigs in the past, but not in recent years.
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2chops
151 posts
Jul 14, 2013
12:59 PM
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The group I play with usually does 2-2 1/2 hour gigs. We play straight through. We only ever once took a break. And that was only a quick pee break.
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You Tube = goshinjk
I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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sudsy
24 posts
Jul 14, 2013
2:59 PM
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kudzurunner-I think you were right on the long 2nd set. The crowd was just getting in about half way through the set and the ladies were up and dancing. It's tough to take a break when the energy is high in the room. Sorry we missed the last set, but it was time for the older crowd to move out and let the youngsters take over. It was well worth the drive. Great meeting you and Alan.
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J-Sin
139 posts
Jul 14, 2013
4:11 PM
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Over the years I've developed one rule concerning gigs with multiple sets. I don't do them. I have tried, didn't like that at all. What I do is a performance, it's on and it's off and I'm out. Splitting that drama and rush of energy with beer breaks doesn't work for me.
Having said that, I'm not here to undermine bands that do that. This is just me sharing a view. I bet it's much to do with the kind of act I have. Maybe if I played more upbeat blues or music for dancing i'd think differently.
Also, I'd probably never stay to listen to almost any band for 3 hours, with maybe the exception of someone like Tom Waits OR - again - if I'm going dancing myself.
I saw The Boss in Finland just recently and he played for 3,5 hours straight. With all the respect for his music and especially his stamina, I would've been satisfied with maybe 2 hours. Many gigs would be better a bit shorter in my humble opinion.
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Reed To The Beat!
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kudzurunner
4157 posts
Jul 14, 2013
5:54 PM
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@Iceman: The phrase "total energy control for a whole evening" is exactly right. I bring a small CD player and play it through the PA between sets--unless, of course, there's a jukebox and somebody is playing it.
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Jehosaphat
504 posts
Jul 14, 2013
6:32 PM
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Interesting that both the Iceman and Kudzu seem to recommend playing loud music in the breaks.
Well I hate it when bands do that.Especially when they play their own CDs..^
You go to a bar with some other couples and never get a chance to have a chat without yelling at each all night.
We sometimes go out to see a local band a) because they are very good but also because they give everyones ears a rest in the breaks.They play Chicago and Rock blues but in the breaks they'll put on some nice upbeat country blues at a conversational level.
Adds a plus to the dynamics of the night imo.
Maybe i'm just getting old..
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The Iceman
1006 posts
Jul 14, 2013
9:48 PM
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I don't believe that Kudzu nor I are suggesting playing loud music in the breaks.
We mention keeping the energy level up during breaks...when controlling the back ground music, I never have it as loud as the band played. If you keep the volume the same, it fatigues the ears of the audience.
There is a way to keep the energy/excitement level going without losing your audience during the break and without blasting music. Mostly it's about balance, finesse and understanding the room acoustics as well as choosing complimentary or high quality music appropriate to the situation.
Also, would NEVER play a recording during breaks of the band that just performed.
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The Iceman
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LSC
469 posts
Jul 15, 2013
1:04 PM
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@ Kingly - Spent over 20 years in the UK and personally never ran into the attitudes you describe, but then I was in Wales :) Actually what you describe sounds much more like players around here.
As for 4 hour sets for the right money, there in lies the rub. You'll get usually less or at best the same for playing 4 hours here as you do 2 x 45 in the UK. Money is even better on the other side of the channel and many times you can do 90 minutes straight through with a proper show.
@J-Sin - I've seen Springsteen's marathon shows on several occasions. It's a matter of taste of course but I never felt bored or started looking at my watch. First time I saw Bruce was in LA in 1977 at the Forum. He did three hours including three genuine encores. At the end the house manager was going nuts, turned up all the house lights and did everything put pull the plug. Bruce was doing "Quarter to Three" and the crowd was still going insane.
Steve Van Zandt made the comment that they couldn't do shows in the States as long as they do in Europe because Americans don't have the attention span. He mentioned that in the States when they go into a slower more intimate piece the guys especially head for the bar. In Europe they shut up and listen and are enraptured.
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LSC
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LSC
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