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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Monitors, feedback, and band politics...
Monitors, feedback, and band politics...
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HawkeyeKane
1826 posts
Jun 28, 2013
10:50 AM
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Picking up from the tangent discussion on the VHT thread...here's a recap.
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
1827 posts
Jun 28, 2013
10:51 AM
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Question related to putting an amp in the monitors...
My band usually runs two powered monitors that are daisy-chained on the same monitor output channel. Reason for that is because they are rather junky JBL EONs, and if you run them on two seperate monitor channels, one of them inevitably puts out a heinous buzz.
Anyway, since we have to run our monitors on the same level, I prefer not to have my amp's mic channel in them at all for feedback reasons. But our lead guitarist (who I will say is an unusually harp-friendly one) is on the opposite side of our stage configuration, and likes to have some of me in them so he can hear me in the mix. So it presents a problem. Any advice on how we might be able to remedy this?
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
1828 posts
Jun 28, 2013
10:52 AM
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KINGLEY SAYS....
"Hawkeye a few ideas come to mind.
1. Get the band to play quieter and have them all mic up into the PA. That way they could all hear each other on stage. Though it's unlikely they will agree to it.
2. Turn the monitor volume on your side of the stage low or even off if not really needed. The guitarist can then have as much of you in the monitor as he wants (within reason of course). This all depends on having the agreement on whoever else uses the monitor on your side of the stage.
3. If you have a spare small amp you could set it up and mic or line out your amp into it. Then put this on top or next to the guitarists amp. He would then be able to hear you. If the guitarist has a twin channel amp, then you also suggest running your amp in his spare channel at a low volume, so he can hear you. Though he most likely won't like that idea too much!
4. You could move your stage position and set up next to the guitarist and then he would maybe hear you more clearly.
5. You could turn your amp sideways on so that the sound is pointing directly towards the other side of the stage. Then the guitarist might not need you in the monitors. (This can be a very useful trick when playing with a loud band to be able to hear yourself more clearly too.)
6. Try and convince the band to invest in some decent monitors. So then you can run them separately.
7.If all those things are not possible then you could reposition the monitor on your stage side so that it points away from you and more across the stage. This may help with feedback, it may not."
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Hawkeye Kane
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HawkeyeKane
1829 posts
Jun 28, 2013
10:53 AM
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And I then reply in turn to points one through seven....
1. Most of them would be agreeable....except said guitarist. He prefers his amp's tone at higher volumes rather than through the PA.
2. Problem is I DO need the volume up for vocal reasons and so I can hear the rhythm acoustic guitar. Turn it down, then the bass player and I are flying blind.
3. I only have two amps at present, and only one has a line out, which I use in my own rig to attain my desired tone. The guitarist uses a '65 Bandmaster, and it does have two channels....but he uses them both. :-/ If he didn't, he actually prolly wouldn't mind me running something in there. He's an avid supporter of trying to create stereophonis on stage.
I DO have an ART Tube preamp with two outputs on it so it can serve as a controllable DI. Maybe that might come in useful if I get my hands on a little solid state for cheap?
4. As loud as he plays, if I shifted positions and set up next to him, it'd likely create even more of a feedback hazard for me.
5. In our present configuration, turning my amp to the side might give the guitarist the amount of harp he wants, but it'd also blow out the drummer's ears. But how would it help me to hear myself? I'm very interested to know this. Maybe I can present it to the band, and if I can explain thoroughly enough, maybe we can come up with a plan on this.
6. New monitors is on the to-do list for us, I'm pretty sure. I really despise those EONs. In-ear monitors would be awesome.
7. If the stage space allows for it, then yes, I sometimes reposition the monitor causing the feedback. My band is one that has NUMEROUS feedback hazards in it. The monitors are just a start. Then we have 40 watts through two 12" speakers from the guitarist mic'd into the PA with a 57...the leader's Cube 60 mic'd with a 57...my rig mic'd with a 57...the bass player with a 2X10-1X18 350W Hartke rig (lined into the PA on certain occasions)...our drummer with a his Roland electronic kit running through a Bose tower and two subs AND lined into the PA & monitors...and on top of all that, a vocal mic for everyone.
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that the guitarist swears off using a line out. Claims that an amp should always be mic'd to capture the speaker's natural tone. While I agree with that to an extent, if there's gonna be THAT many microphones on stage, it's always gonna be a feedback trap.
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Hawkeye Kane
Last Edited by HawkeyeKane on Jun 28, 2013 10:55 AM
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1847
877 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:18 AM
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get an kinder anti feedbacker
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have you seen this?
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 28, 2013 11:19 AM
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Rick Davis
2020 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:22 AM
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yep, 1847 is the winnah.
Or buy a Bassman.
Or both.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 28, 2013 11:23 AM
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Kingley
2810 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:24 AM
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Try asking him to put his amp at his ear level. This will make him realise just how loud he actually is and he may turn down. He probably won't agree to it though and even if he does, he'll most likely swear blind that if it's not loud then he can't get "his sound". This translates to mean he is letting his ego get the better of him and not playing as part of the band as he should.
You could try the Art tube. I don't know if it would work that well but you never know for sure until you try.
Turning the amp sideways across the stage when all the other amp are forwards facing has a kind of cutting effect. It makes it easier for you to hear your amp. You have to have be somewhat in line with the amp of course to hear it clearly. This sounds crazy but I swear it works. I used to do this with a Pro Junior when I played with a very loud band and I never had problems hearing myself or with feedback.
"Part of the problem, IMHO, is that the guitarist swears off using a line out. Claims that an amp should always be mic'd to capture the speaker's natural tone. While I agree with that to an extent, if there's gonna be THAT many microphones on stage, it's always gonna be a feedback trap."
Well it all depends where the line out is taken from in the amps circuit. Why not let him mic his amp up, but insist that he plays it at a lower volume (you'd have to get the rest of the band on board for that though) and line everyone else out?
The main problem as I see it is that you're having to fight with the guitarists ego driven belief system that he needs a big amp at a certain volume to attain "his sound". If he played a smaller amp he could drive it more easily and get "his sound" at much more reasonable levels. He could also of course use a pedal in front of the amp and get his sound at a much lower volume. I suspect though that he's already using a pedal in front of the amp and is still insistent on using high volume? Either option would allow the rest of the band to turn down and then you'd all hear each other much better and probably wouldn't even need monitors for most situations.
One of the biggest single misconceptions by musicians is that they need loud volume to create their sound. This simply isn't true. It's just an ego thing. This is the single reason that so many musicians end up deaf. It really is the epitome of stupidity. Think about it. Would a painter cut off his hands?
Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 28, 2013 11:27 AM
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1847
878 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:28 AM
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Would a painter cut off his hands?
no ...but he might cut off his ear
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have you seen this?
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Harpaholic
252 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:40 AM
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You and the bass player are flying blind? What about the drummer?
The bass player and drummer is the rhythm section.
If their on time it's hard to get lost, IME
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jun 28, 2013 11:41 AM
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Kingley
2811 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:40 AM
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1847 - Lol. I knew someone would say that! :)
One thing to bear in mind with the Kinder AFB is that whilst it can help in some situations it's by no means a cure all for feedback. It's a useful piece of kit to have in your bag for sure, but just don't expect it to cure the problem every time. The AFB works for guys like Rod because they are pros with a pro attitude and make sure that everyone on stage is on the same page. That is what controls the majority of feedback problems, etc on stage. The AFB allows them to use strange amps on tour without having to mess around changing valves and to use amps that may not be very harp friendly.
The best single answer is the hardest one to achieve and that's to get the band to play at quieter volumes on stage and to rely on the PA to carry the sound out front.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 28, 2013 11:56 AM
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Harpaholic
253 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:56 AM
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Buy a big amp, problem solved!
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orphan
281 posts
Jun 28, 2013
12:23 PM
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@Kingley
Very well put. You sir are a treasure to this forum!
The solutions are not that difficult but the folks in the band can be!
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.JPG)
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HawkeyeKane
1831 posts
Jun 28, 2013
12:44 PM
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@1847 & Rick
I'd love to spring for an AFB or Harp Shield....but I just made a hefty amount of gear purchases and my foreseeable budget doesn't allow for it. Bassman is also out of the cards.
@Harpaholic
The drummer gets his needs filled by the other monitor. Since he's covered and keeps on time, the bass player is also clues in well enough to stay on track because he follows the drummer. But he relies, as I do, on the monitor on our side for the other elements procured through the monitor...vocals, etc. And again, I'm not in the market for a new amp right now....at least not one big enough to scratch any itch. I'm flirting with the idea of selling my Alamo soon, but what I'll get for it won't be enough to buy something like a Bassman.
@Kingley
I'll try running all these ideas past the boys. I'm sure one of them will lend itself to finding a solution within the happy medium. Orphan is right...you are a wealth of knowledge Kingley. Thank you!
Sidenote....has anyone ever asked John Kinder about the possibility of him designing and selling a multi-channel AFB? Something that sound tech's would cream over for running the board at live events?
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Hawkeye Kane
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Harpaholic
254 posts
Jun 28, 2013
12:49 PM
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Considering John Kinder is like 75 now and knowing some of the projects he's working on, it's not likely.
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Rick Davis
2021 posts
Jun 28, 2013
1:13 PM
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This is a common problem with weekend warrior bands. It is easy to say the solution is to to tell the band to turn down, but that is like shoveling sand against the tide.
If you are the band leader you might be able to get some results that way, but Tim is not the band leader and the guy who is the band leader sounds like he is the problem. There are two solutions: 1) quit and find a new, better band, or 2) get a bigger amp. Harp players have been facing this choice forever.
But even a bigger amp and a Kinder AFB+ pedal will not solve the problem absolutely. Guitars can ALWAYS get way louder than us if they want to. You may not need a better amp, just better bandmates.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 28, 2013 1:14 PM
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HawkeyeKane
1832 posts
Jun 28, 2013
2:25 PM
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@Rick
While I can understand your arrival at that possible conclusion, I feel I should clarify some things. My bandleader really isn't at fault here. He runs nearly every aspect of our weekly gigs. Setup, teardown, transport, the PA from the stage, and his wife handles nearly every aspect of our PR and bookings. On top of that, he does his best to make sure everyone in the band stays level-headed with each other by serving as mediator for any tiffs that might arise. Although I don't have anything to compare to, this being the only band I've ever been in, I have heard stories from fellow local musicians about the grueling dynamics between bandmates. And I have to say, I think I have it pretty easy in the band I'm in.
We're not a blues band. We're a rock band that HAPPENS to play some blues in our act. A rock band is always gonna be louder than most blues bands by nature, and so attention to volume is always going to be a factor as such. But we're a good band, and we play well together. Example of this? Well, for one, how often do you find a guitar player who actually wants to hear the harp in his monitors? How many bands, only three years after they're born, rack up four accolades from the local mainstream media? How often do bands so young get corporate sponsorships from major breweries? Not bragging here, I'm just trying to prove a point. Why would I want to quit and find a "better" band, when the band I'm in has me playing two, if not three gigs a week, and actually likes having a harp in the band?
Yes, there are always gonna be struggles for a harp player in any band of any genre. IMHO, harp players in bona fide BLUES bands have it a little easier than those in other genres, but its still a bitch for them having to fight to be heard over guitarists, or get themselves sufficiently in the mains because the sound tech just doesn't get it. But hell, that's the name of the game for a harp player. I knew what I was signing up for. Everything can be worked out one way or another. This, IMO, is a very minor technicality that will get thrashed out one way or another when we all find the time to sit down and pow-wow over it. Every band should do that, by the way. Yes, ego can be very detrimental to the health of any given band. But as long as time is taken to sit down and come up with solutions to problems (and no drugs or alcohol are involved at the meeting), I believe that a band will prosper.
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Hawkeye Kane
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Kingley
2812 posts
Jun 28, 2013
4:12 PM
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Orphan and Hawkeye - Thanks for the compliment guys, but I can't take the credit. I'm merely passing on stuff I've learnt over the years. I'm just glad if any of it can be of use to anyone.
"It is easy to say the solution is to to tell the band to turn down, but that is like shoveling sand against the tide"
Rick - Yes indeed it can be. That is exactly why I offered other possible solutions to the problem.
The biggest problem with so many musicians is egos. I'd say it probably accounts for over 90% of the issues in band line ups. In a good band the musicians realise that the important thing is to be in the service of the song and of course to please the audience. In too many bands the soloists (of whatever instrument) seem to think the whole thing is about them and that the lyrics and groove are a secondary thing.
Hawkeye - I think that if you are open, honest and non confrontational with the other band members you can probably find a workable solution to the problem. It could work out being a very simple fix if the others are receptive to new/different ideas.
One thing I have noticed is that a lot of "weekend warriors" don't seem to get the simple fact that if they are doing a paid gig, then they are the paid entertainment. Which means they are there to entertain people and not just to massage their own egos. They are being paid to do a professional service and should act accordingly.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 28, 2013 4:14 PM
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Rick Davis
2022 posts
Jun 28, 2013
4:15 PM
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The band is too loud for you to hear yourself, right? And "band politics" make it awkward for you to resolve the conflict, is that also right? You cannot afford a technical solution, so you are at an impasse.
By "better" band, I mean players who know how to back a harp player. It might be time to look around. Or, you might consider forming your own band. That solves a lot of problems, but creates some new headaches.
If you are happy where you are that is fine too, but don't look for guitar players in a weekend rock band to turn down so you can be louder than them. I've played in bands like that. That's why I own a Bassman and Kinder AFB+.
I see your dilemma; it is a tough spot. If it were me (and it was me in the past) I'd be looking for a better situation. You won't believe how much more fun it is with players who know how to back a harp.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 28, 2013 4:19 PM
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Harpaholic
257 posts
Jun 28, 2013
5:38 PM
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The harsh reality is, If you want to play in a band and play big shows then you need the equipment to do it. Even if it means beg, borrow or steal.
That's what serious musicians do otherwise find a band that plays small coffee house gigs.
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SuperBee
1261 posts
Jun 28, 2013
6:20 PM
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Maybe I misread this, but I think hawk can hear himself but the guitar player wants to be able to hear him too. The problem is that the only way hawk can get his stage sound over to where the guitar player is, is via the monitor, but he can't just direct it to the guitarists side, he has to have it in all the monitors and that's a feedback problem. Have I got that right? If so, i think kingley made a number of pretty practical suggestions, but none of them work for Tim mainly because they would involve new gear. So I think you are up a stump Tim. I think you can't fix it without changing something, so if nothing can change, there's no fix. I've seen you guys play, and I didn't notice any problem with your sound, and like you say, you're winning approval and getting heaps of work, so what's caused the problem now?
Thd idea of running a line out or extension speaker over to the guitarists side seems pretty good to me. I'm not a fan of playing through PA, especially if you can't channel your monitor.
I played in an extremely loud band, always asking me to get louder. I ended up with a 60w Deville 410 and sometimes I still couldn't hear it, especially if the guys with the earplugs in we're operating the desk...'you guys turn down' was the best suggestion I ever made.
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JellyShakersTipJar
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dougharps
408 posts
Jun 28, 2013
9:38 PM
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@HawkeyeKane
Is it your monitors that buzz or the PA Monitor channel that buzzes?
Could you drive a different monitor or another amp with the other monitor channel, and use the EONs for monitoring vocals and other instruments?
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Doug S.
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Kingley
2816 posts
Jun 28, 2013
9:52 PM
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SuperBee - Yes, you've got it right.
Dougharps - That's a great idea.
The buzzing sound could be a bad earth connection somewhere. Once you know if it's the PA or the monitor that's causing it you could get a tech to look at it and see if they can cure the buzzing.
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