A440
87 posts
Jun 23, 2013
12:44 PM
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I am thinking about trying out my first Suzuki. The Manji, Olive, Promaster, and Hammond are all selling for around the same price (60-65 USD) and the Firebreath is about 10-15 bucks more. I would love to hear your experiences with these harps, especially those of you who may have tried them all...
Last Edited by A440 on Jun 23, 2013 12:46 PM
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TheoBurke
428 posts
Jun 23, 2013
12:55 PM
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Suzuki generally has first rate products. I would, though, not bother with the Manji--I have 3 of them, keys C, Bb and D, and all are full of difficulties. Although the high notes blow bend rather well, they are sluggish and combative . It's been said that they sound find if you have them tweaked, which doesn't work for me. They already cost sixty bucks a pop and paying even more to get to them to play decently is just throwing good money after bad. I have had very positive experiences with their other harmonicas, specifically the Promaster, the Hammond and their economy brand Harpmaster. They were worthy investments and have given me much pleasure.
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Ted Burke
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
http://ted-burke.com
tburke4@san.rr.co,
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jim
1444 posts
Jun 23, 2013
1:02 PM
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definitely NOT a promaster! Olive or Manji. Better Olive.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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Gnarly
617 posts
Jun 23, 2013
1:22 PM
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I like the Hammond, and the Olive is also great.
I don't mind the Manji, but it is pretty bluesy.
I am the Suzuki harmonica repair tech, warranty is one year.
Play them a lot, we will fix them.
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tookatooka
3353 posts
Jun 23, 2013
1:47 PM
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Had good experience of HarpMaster, BluesMaster and ProMaster although the ProMaster is quite hefty and I wasn't impressed with the bi-metallic effect of the comb and plates. I used Suzukis a lot at one time and had to replace plates quite frequently due to blowing out reeds. Went over to Special 20's due to the better tuning IMO and haven't blown a reed in years.
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didjcripey
568 posts
Jun 23, 2013
2:00 PM
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Funny how much peoples experiences vary.
I have one promaster, I don't like the aluminium comb, and it was very badly machined, looked like it had been cut with an angle grinder. Had to sand it flat to get it playable.
The manjis however are first rate in my opinion, best harps I've ever played. I still use Oskars, SP 20's and proharps, and when I switch to a manji the difference is huge.
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Lucky Lester
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yonderwall
59 posts
Jun 23, 2013
2:07 PM
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It really is funny how experiences vary. I too happen to love the Manjis (particularly on the lower keys, Bb and down), I certainly don't mind Promasters, and have recently fallen in love with my Firebreath again. I guess I don't help with your decision much, though I do keep hearing great things about Olive.
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1847
853 posts
Jun 23, 2013
2:15 PM
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the manji and the olive are the same harmonica
what have you all been smoking?
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PASS THE HAT
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Gnarly
618 posts
Jun 23, 2013
2:25 PM
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Me? Smoking?
The two harps are not identical, but they are similar.
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SuperBee
1248 posts
Jun 23, 2013
2:35 PM
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Yes, I had a fine-playing Manji, but I cringed every time I played it thanks to the horrible feel of the comb. The cover plates though, I loved.
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JellyShakersTipJar
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1847
854 posts
Jun 23, 2013
2:48 PM
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i replaced the cover plates with the bends juke
much more better.
you can take a fingernail file
and smooth out the tines....you may just get to love the comb...
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PASS THE HAT
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jimbo-G
173 posts
Jun 23, 2013
3:13 PM
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Had harpmaster but didn't like recessed reedplates, got a manji I'm not sure I'd get another one it seems like I need to fight It to get nice bends. In other words I wouldn't bother and just get a crossover or a couple of marine bands. Just my opinion. Welcome to the forum
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hooktool
36 posts
Jun 23, 2013
4:01 PM
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I have 5 new Manjis over the last couple of months, and hardly play them. Low F is OK, the others are hard on at least one or two holes and need tweaking. Like Ted, I don't think I should need to work on a harp that cost that much. I have Special 20, LO, and even an OLD Huang that play better than the Manjis. Im not all that comfortable at this point with gapping them, but I guess I will when I have time. I would rather play/practice than work on them.
I bought a Crossover a couple of weeks ago, and its what I wanted the Manji to be. The Manjis are loud and I like the sound on the good holes and its nicely made.
John
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DukeBerryman
64 posts
Jun 23, 2013
4:52 PM
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I love the Promaster for its crystalline tone, but it's tuned a little different, so it might sound strange. The aluminum comb is brillant and what makes it stand apart from other harps. It's like a totally different animal. It works for me because it is somewhat horn-like, or "horny" as I like to say.
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Duke Berryman - Chicago blues, harmonica, guitar
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gmacleod15
209 posts
Jun 23, 2013
6:15 PM
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I have tried about 20 assorted bluesmasters (mostly), promasters and manjis.
The bluesmasters have been the best for me as they sound more bluesy to me and have been best out of the box. I have a Bb Manji that is really not playable but I also have an A that is my favorite.
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MBH member since 2009-03-24
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arzajac
1087 posts
Jun 23, 2013
6:37 PM
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All of the Suzukis have potential to be great harps but none of them come close to it out-of-the-box unless you are lucky.
None of the combs are airtight - especially the aluminum ones.
That being said, I like the handful of Harpmasters I have. I use them a lot, too. But I have low expectations from them. They are hands-down the best $28 harp.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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groyster1
2279 posts
Jun 23, 2013
7:45 PM
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same as delta frost....
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1847
855 posts
Jun 23, 2013
8:52 PM
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The two harps are not identical, but they are similar.
ok so what is different about them?
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PASS THE HAT
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Gnarly
619 posts
Jun 23, 2013
10:12 PM
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Hi 1847--
Comb is similar but different.
Reed plates and reeds are different. Manji is compromise, Olive is ET.
Cover plates are different--Manji CP very easily bent.
Sound is different--Olive is less raspy, AFAICT
Oh yeah, I like the Firebreath too--smooth, easy to OB
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 23, 2013 10:13 PM
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1847
857 posts
Jun 23, 2013
10:17 PM
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Reed plates and reeds are different
how are they different?
i am curious
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PASS THE HAT
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1847
858 posts
Jun 23, 2013
10:46 PM
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are the reeds and reed plates exactly the same
but a slightly different tuning?
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PASS THE HAT
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STME58
466 posts
Jun 23, 2013
11:42 PM
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So far all of the Suzukis I have tried have been pretty good. I like the sound of the Bb Promaster I have, but it has always been hard to get the 3 draw to bend, even though I have replaced the reed plates a couple of times. Perhaps the comb is not flat as was mentioned here a couple of times. The Bluesmasters are nice. I like the thin profile. I even bought a couple of Folkmasters and I was impressed with them for the price. ( I paid about 4 buck each for them in China)The tone is not as good as the more expensive Suzukis but they are in tune and easy to bend.
I have a Suzuki Study 24 tremolo I picked up in China. It is vastly better than the cheaper Gou Guang Tremolos I bought. The Folkmasters and the Study 24 tell me that Suzuki has gotten the art of contract manufacturing in China down pretty well. The tremolo is a whole different animal and I am having some fun experimenting with it.
I like the sound of the Manji for some things. Both the Manji and the Hohner Crossover are attempts to modernize and improve a Marine Band and, in my opinion, Hohner has done a better job of this.
My last Suzuki purchase was a pure harp in low F. I believe this is a Firebreath with wood cover plates. I really like this harp. I like it so much that I have fatigued the 7 blow after only two months of ownership. I am surprised the 7 blow went as I use the 4 blow a lot more. I have a call in to Suzuki to see about getting it repaired. I expect Gnarly will be getting the message on Monday.
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jim
1445 posts
Jun 24, 2013
2:20 AM
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AFAIK, the reeds of manji and olive are the same. But the covers will give you a significant difference.
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Free Harp Learning Center
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jbone
1287 posts
Jun 24, 2013
3:32 AM
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I refuse to work on a new harp. With that in mind I have yet to get a Manji or a fresh reed plate, that needed any work at all. Manji is my go-to harp these days unless and until something even better- can't imagine what- comes along.
I have had one promaster. It was ok. I tried a Bluesmaster and it was so similar to a Bushman Delta Frost, it brought back some really ugly memories.
Manji and CSX are two mainstays in my case and I have been gigging a lot this year. They have not let me down once.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
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groyster1
2280 posts
Jun 24, 2013
4:02 AM
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manjis certainly get mixed reviews...I bought 3 before price went up...would spend $$ on crossover or marine band deluxe over a manji....
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greeno
36 posts
Jun 24, 2013
4:58 AM
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I have 3 Promasters, one in A and two (in D and G) retuned to Paddy Richter by Brendan Power. I think they're nice, but take some getting used to. I keep the A in the car for traffic jams, etc.
However, my son, who is just learning, bought himself a Bluesmaster, and we both agree with gmacloed that this is a better OOB harmonica, and cheaper!
Greeno
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groyster1
2281 posts
Jun 24, 2013
6:14 AM
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harp in car is the answer to traffic jams.....practice time....
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1847
860 posts
Jun 24, 2013
7:26 AM
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ok so the reeds and reed plates are identical
how is the comb different?
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PASS THE HAT
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A440
88 posts
Jun 24, 2013
9:14 AM
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Some really good views, opinions, and debates here... keep 'em comin'.
Clearly mixed opinions about the Manji, but perhaps more love for the Olive?
Concerning the black covers on the Firebreath and Hammond - has anyone experienced the paint chipping or rubbing off?
Last Edited by A440 on Jun 24, 2013 9:42 AM
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STME58
467 posts
Jun 24, 2013
9:38 AM
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I have a Hammond in F that I have had for a couple of years and it still looks new. F is not my most used harp and I always keep harps either in an individual case or in a padded slot in my harp case, so I am not sure my example tells much about the durability of the finish.
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1847
861 posts
Jun 24, 2013
10:24 AM
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i have a manji it went thru the washing machine
it damaged the cover plate, but the harp is fine
i put a bends juke cover plate on it
it sounds the same. it is still a manji
or maybe i can call it an olive oil eh popeye
i crack my self up lol
the manji and the olive are the same harmonica.
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PASS THE HAT
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florida-trader
323 posts
Jun 24, 2013
10:58 AM
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A440. As you can see from the comments, the reviews are mixed. If you read between the lines, you will note that many of the posters identified specific issues and took steps to correct them. Others simply accept the fact that they have a harp that doesn’t play well and give the impression of having wasted money on them. Still others feel that for the $60-$70 price tag of a Manji you deserve a harp that doesn’t have to be worked on to make them play well. I would agree with that last comment if you are talking about having to pay customizer big bucks to work on the harp. But I do believe that this thread illustrates the value of having some basic knowledge and skills about how to fine tune your harps. We’re not talking about major surgery here. We’re talking about simple stuff like adjusting gaps, flat sanding draw plates, and flat sanding combs. These are things that anyone can do. Virtually all the models discussed herein are assembled with screws so taking them apart and reassembling them is easy. YouTube and the archives of this forum are loaded with information about how to do routine harp maintenance. It would seem to me, if you are going to invest in harmonicas that cost $50, $60 or $70 it behooves you to know a little bit about how to make them play better. There is a lot of space in between the two extremes of simply rolling the dice and accepting whatever you get with Out-of-the-Box harps or quitting your day job to become a full-time harmonica customizer. I can guarantee you that a lot the not-so-great-playing harps that have been discussed on this thread can be made into good playing harps with some minor adjustments.
For the record, I have found the HarpMaster to be a terrific harp – especially in that price range. I also own a full set of ProMasters – which I love. And although I don’t care for the Manji comb, it is a great harp.
Bottom line. It’s great to be shopping around and soliciting the opinion of others. But at the end of the day, no matter which harp you buy, there is the chance that it won’t play well out of the box. Then what?
Just my two cents.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Gnarly
620 posts
Jun 24, 2013
11:26 AM
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The Manji and the Olive are two different models.
Check it out for yourself--I have no new information, see my previous post.
I make quite an effort to be honest, sorry if you feel my efforts fall short.
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1847
862 posts
Jun 24, 2013
11:33 AM
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i saw the previous post it says
that the comb is different....how so?
it say's the reed and the reed plates are totally different how so? they are made at the same factory with the same materials the olive last i checked was 10 dollars more
why is that i see no differance
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the_happy_honker
155 posts
Jun 24, 2013
12:30 PM
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I think Suzuki found that a lot of people like me are putting Promaster/Hammond cover plates on their Manjis. So they made the Olive, whose reeds are tuned to ET, different from the Manji comprised tuning.
As for the price, well, it beats buying a Promaster and Manji and changing cover plates. I don't have an Olive, but I may consider it if I want more than the hybrids I have.
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1847
863 posts
Jun 24, 2013
1:13 PM
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mr happy i think you are exactly right
i am not trying to beat anyone up here
i actually like mr gnarly
but they are essentially the same harmonica
i have to give Suzuki credit
i am sure they got feedback re: the coverplates
that crush like aluminum foil
and did something about it.
as far as the tuning goes
on the the top plate 7 of the reeds are tuned exactly the same as the manji
the other 3 are tuned
5 cents flat an average harmonica player "myself included" would have a very difficult time discerning the difference
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PASS THE HAT
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snakes
699 posts
Jun 24, 2013
3:22 PM
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I would highly recommend the Fire Breath. I gig with a full set including a low F. I've tried many of the Suzuki models except the Hammond and Olive. I even have a few tremolos and a chromatic. Back to the point, I have found Suzuki harps to be the most consistently good quality harps out of the box. And the Fire Breath is my choice due to tone, ease of play, and the sealed rosewood comb.
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snakes in Snohomish
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Nisei
38 posts
Jun 24, 2013
5:51 PM
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I bought a Hammond and it was delightful. Every hole overbends OOTB, ET tuning for multiple positions, feels solid and has a sexy black sheen. Rather, had a sheen. The coating has chipped and pitted, and now, 15 months after purchase, about 20% of the surface is matte.
But, the promaster is supposed to be the same inside but with uncoated covers. So without having played a regular promaster, I give it a hearty recommendation.
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HarpNinja
3358 posts
Jun 24, 2013
8:11 PM
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Matt Smart builds fantastic Suzuki's...I've played and/or owned several Manji from him...FANTASTIC.
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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
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Grey Owl
182 posts
Jun 25, 2013
10:11 AM
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I agree with Nisei, the Hammond is a lovely harp and mine also OB OOTB. It has a smoother darker tone than other Suzukis I've played and I like it a lot. It feels really good in the hand as it is a little heavier than most harps and has full length covers which makes it comfortable to play. The black anodised coating prevents that metallic reaction on the tongue also.
I have also tried the Promaster in Bb which is similar in feel to the Hammond but if you Tongue Block you may not like the metallic reaction from the aluminium comb.
It has a wonderful bright tone but like STME58 I have exactly the same problem with the draw 3 hole. I've tried everything in the way of gapping the 3 draw and 3 blow and have got it as good as I can get it but I'm still aware that I'm fighting a little bit with it as it feels tight. When I open up the gaps it's too airy!! A great harp tone-wise nonetheless.
I also have a Promaster 350v in C which is exactly the same as the Promaster except it is half valved. I didn't care for the valves so I took them off, leaving just the one on the hole 1 (this is handy as it gives you a note lower than blow 1). I really like this harp. It may be just a lucky OOTB but it sounds great - bright tone and very smooth bends. It's still got the aluminium comb so beware the voltage kick when tongue blocking:)
Only bought one Manji in Bb and wasn't that impressed (but I might have been unlucky here). I had to do a lot of gapping to get it to play well. The covers are soft and unsupported so if you grip hard you will bend the cover plates. It has a very loud tone, a bit on the brash side for my taste and not nearly as pleasing as the Marine Band tone IMHO.
The Harpmaster is a great little harp. A bit cheaper thatn the ones you're considering but it has great tone, not as full on as the Manji or quite as bright as the Promaster. It has this kind of crackly tone which is really nice. It has a plastic comb and standard length and well supported covers and it takes some beating for he price and is very comfortable to play. It's a little like the Hohner Special 20, but has a slightly better tone.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
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STME58
468 posts
Jun 25, 2013
10:25 AM
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There is a bout a 1.6v potential difference between Brass and Aluminum. The Promaster Comb is clear anodized and this should stop the reaction. On my Promaster, there is one small section where I can see the anodize is missing ( The aluminum has turned dark there). If my tongue hits there I can "taste" the voltage.
I expect the reason the Hammond combs are less likely to do this is the black anodize makes it easier to see that it is consistently processed than a clear anodize.
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Grey Owl
184 posts
Jun 25, 2013
10:55 AM
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I can't 'taste the voltage' on my Hammond but I can on the Promaster. If I place my tongue on the coverplate/comb/reedplate to the left of hole 1, no problem but If I place my tongue on the the holes I get a definite metallic tingle. I guess some players will be more susceptible to this than others.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jun 25, 2013 10:55 AM
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STME58
469 posts
Jun 25, 2013
3:49 PM
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Grey Owl,
I just checked my ProMaster with an ohmmeter and found, as expected, no conductivity between points on the comb. I only have one spot with damaged anodizing so I cant check from bad point to bad point. I expect that if you did this test on yours you would find conductivity between all the points where you can "taste the voltage" but no conductivity on the area to the left of hole 1, where you can't. If you do this be careful not to use the sharp tip of the probe and further damage the anodize.
The anodize layer is a good electrical insulator but it is easily damaged. If you did something like sand the corners of the tines on an anodized aluminum comb, you would probably get more of a jolt. On a black anodized comb you don't need an ohm meter (or your tongue) to tell if there are areas where the anodize is missing.
Hey, the galvanic difference between brass and aluminum, 1.6 volts, is enough to light an LED, maybe you could make a harp that lights up when you tongue block it!
The voltage is there but I doubt there is enough current :-(
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Brendan Power
356 posts
Jun 25, 2013
5:21 PM
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Suzukis are rubbish - I've always said that ;-)
Seriously... their reed life is great, but playability out of the box is not as good as comparable Hohner models. The Crossover is probably the easiest-playing OTB stock harp around currently.
However, if you have the skills, embossed Suzuki reedplates are an excellent combination for reliable gigging: lively response plus great reed durability.
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Jun 25, 2013 5:22 PM
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Grey Owl
185 posts
Jun 26, 2013
1:20 AM
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STME58 'Hey, the galvanic difference between brass and aluminum, 1.6 volts, is enough to light an LED, maybe you could make a harp that lights up when you tongue block it!'. :))
Can't find my Ohmmeter to check the voltage but it feels like it's around 12 volts....nah just kidding, it's really no more than a tingle. It's one of the times I appreciate being a lip purser though. Doing occasional octaves is not a big problem.
I'd be interested to know if you intend to flat sand the comb and reed plate to try to overcome the problem with the 3 draw bent on your Bb. I might give it a try myself.
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Grey Owl YouTube
Grey Owl Abstract Photos
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Jun 26, 2013 1:21 AM
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STME58
471 posts
Jun 26, 2013
8:49 AM
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I have already tried bee's wax on the comb to try to improve the hole 3 bending. It made no difference and after playing it for a few weeks, I took it apart to see if there was any evidence of leaking. I saw no evidence in the bee's wax.
I have not flat sanded the comb because that will remove the anodize near all of the holes and make the galvanic reaction worse. Not only is this unpleasant, but it speeds up corrosion. If I can find an anodizer that is willing to throw one comb in with another customers batch of parts, I might try this. Perhaps I could get a nice red or blue anodize. Another option might be to use a food grade clear paint on the bare aluminum to insulate it electrically from the reed plates.
It is interesting that we both have the same problem. My harp is about 2 years old. I wonder if Suzuki's comb process fell out of bed briefly. Gary at Suzuki has one of my harps in for repair. I will try and talk to him about this when I pick my harp up.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 26, 2013 8:54 AM
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florida-trader
324 posts
Jun 26, 2013
10:47 AM
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STME58 and Grey Owl,
I have heard others comment about being able to taste or sense an electrical current with aluminum combs. My good friend Harvey of HarveyHarps fame dislikes metal combs for that reason. I guess you are all just very sensitive guys.
There are a couple of possible solutions. Without having the benefit of actually seeing your combs, there are a number of substances that you can use to insulate your lips and tongue from the aluminum. Polyurethane is one. If all you have is a tiny spec of bare metal where the anodizing has chipped off, then a dot of polyurethane might do the trick. If indeed the comb in question is not flat, sanding will definitely remove at least some of the anodizing and very likely create some bare spots. Again, these can be sealed with polyurethane. It is less than an ideal situation but if you did sand the comb the sanded part would not be visible on an assembled harp so it is not the end of the world.
With regard to finding an anodizer who would throw your comb in with another batch, it isn’t quite that easy. They would have to chemically strip the comb first to remove all the anodized surface and get back to bare metal. At that point, you would probably want to flat sand the raw aluminum comb and then have the entire comb anodized again. You might be able to find an anodizer who would do that for you and not charge a fortune. There are a lot of nice guys out there. Generally speaking though, an anodizer has a minimum “Batch Fee” which runs about $100 - $150. As a maker of aluminum combs I speak from experience.
I do make aluminum and Corian combs that fit all the Suzuki diatonics. If you contact me off list I might be able to do something for you – just to help a fellow MBH member out – if ya know what I mean.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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STME58
479 posts
Jun 27, 2013
12:15 AM
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Tom,
30 years ago I worked for a Mercedes repair shop. When we rebuilt an engine, we would sent all the steel parts ( nuts bolt fuel injection lines) out for gold CAD plating and the aluminum out for anodizing so I know what you are talking about. The aluminum oil filler caps I would polish to a bright chrome finish before sending them out for anodizing, mechanically getting it back to bare aluminum. These would come back slightly less shiny than when I first polished them but still looking pretty good. When some customers saw how good the engine looked on one of our rebuild jobs, they would be disappointed when we told them their engine was fine and would not need a rebuild for some time!
Around this same time I was racing bicycles. Mavic made rims with what they called "hard" anodizing. It was dark grey and twice as thick as normal anodizing (80 microns if I recall correctly). It took longer for the anodize to be rubbed of the side of the rim by the brakes with the "hard" anodize. I remember reading an engineering article showing that this coat actually contributed significantly to the stiffness of the rim. I still have a set of race wheels like this in good shape. Is that a coating your anodizer offers? It seems like a bit of overkill for a comb but it might guarantee no bare spots.
I just took a look at you web site. As is true with so many things, the only reason for trying to do something yourself is to gain the knowledge and experience. I would spend more in materials and services modifying or creating a comb than the combs on your web site list for. Not to mention the hours of frustration and multiple failed attempts.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jun 27, 2013 12:26 AM
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Brendan Power
357 posts
Jun 27, 2013
3:18 AM
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@STME58: Two suggestions (aside from buying a new comb):
1. Put a very thin film of Vasleine on the comb. I use a roller to keep it even. This will fill any gaps and seal patches of bare metal with a water-impervious coat.
2. Emboss the reedslots. This will make an amazing difference to any Suzuki harp.
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yonderwall
61 posts
Jun 27, 2013
6:08 AM
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Hi Brendan. I was under the impression that Suzuki had pretty tight reed/slot tolerances to begin with. Do you find embossing to be more important than, say, reedplate/comb sanding on these harps?
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