bloozefish
107 posts
Jun 19, 2013
12:53 PM
|
I don’t mean mics that have bad tone, just those with lower output. My most-used mic is a small-shell Shure bullet with a fine black-label CR element, and I consider this as my benchmark for normal output or “hotness.” Its output is pretty similar to most other CM/CR mics I have owned or played.
After reading Rick Davis’ comments about his Shure 440, I converted a “mantle-piece” or display 440 into a working mic. This element is hotter than my CR, and I have to turn the volume down a bit using it.
I also have several mics with crystal elements : an MC-151, two old Shure R7s, and an original ceramic MC-127 from the late 40s. These have lower outputs, and require a higher volume setting on the amps, but they are really sweet sounding when the amp is cranked. I've tended to ignore these mics, but lately I've been using these “not-so-hot” mics more and more.
Anyone else find that they like some of their lower output mics as well as their hotter ones?
james
|
SuperBee
1231 posts
Jun 19, 2013
2:08 PM
|
For the last couple of years I've used a hot CM 99B86 as my go to mic, but recently picked up a black CR I believe is a first-year 99b86. It is not as hot as my CM but it has a tonal quality I've become very fond of and I find I use it all the time. I've been playing outdoors a lot lately and singing through the harp mic. This mic is very nice for my vocals also. For sure there is more to mic choice than output strength.
----------
JellyShakersTipJar
|
SmokeJS
110 posts
Jun 19, 2013
2:10 PM
|
Bloozefish, given you have a black CR in your most used small body Shure what did you choose for the Shure 440 that is hotter than the CR?
|
bloozefish
108 posts
Jun 19, 2013
2:28 PM
|
Smoke,
the 440 has the original CM, and why it is so hot I don't know. Apparently, Rick Davis observed the same phenomenon with his 440, and I've read similar comments about the "Silver Bullet" over on Dave Barrett's web site.
|
wolfkristiansen
184 posts
Jun 19, 2013
3:23 PM
|
"I don’t mean mics that have bad tone, just those with lower output".
Let's discuss low vs high output mics a bit more. I've puzzled over this for a while. I like mics with a lower output. Here's why:
My Fender Blues Deluxe preamp tube setup is 12ax7-12ay7-12ax7. The Deluxe sounds noticeably better when the volume is set at 4 or 5, not 3. At 3, the sound is good, but kind of clean, and without "sizzle", if I can call it that. If I set the volume at 4 or 5, a bit of distortion creeps in; just the right amount for me. I don't like extreme distortion, i.e. the "bees in a jar" sound.
Other improvements at volume 4 or 5-- the notes have a nice hard attack at the beginning. They seem to leap out of the amp; not because I am blowing harder, and not because the amp is louder. The amp is more responsive in every way.
To use the amp at volume 4 or 5, with a hot mic, I set the volume control on the mic at 1/2 full position, otherwise I'm too loud for most of the rooms I'm in. I also play through amp input no. 2, because it feeds a slightly weaker signal to the preamp/power amp.
The danger of going that route-- In the heat of performance, you accidently turn the volume control too high, and either feed back or overwhelm the rest of the band. Having the rotation of the volume knob physically stop before you feed back has definite advantages.
Lower output mics? Problem solved. I can have my amp cranked up, and also turn the mic volume knob all the way up without incident. Works for me.
If I remember correctly, Rick Davis recently said much the same in discussing amps and tone in a recent thread.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
|
chromaticblues
1414 posts
Jun 20, 2013
6:15 AM
|
I'm not shure if my mics are 440's or 444's. I'm not shure there is difference. Are you talking about the ugly green plastic mic with the flat back. It has the handle molded into the shell.
These mics were made with CM elements. I cut the handle off with a hack saw and file it down almost flush to the shell. Drill the wire out a little bit bigger and install a new cable and bang! Not a good mic, a great mic. The easiest mic to use I have ever owned. I'm an average size person 5'10" 180 and it fits my hands perfect. It's slightly smaller than the green bullets and I like the shape much more. It isn't rounded. I never get the feeling I'm going drop it if I don't pay atention.
As far as lower output. If we're talking about the a high impedance CM that's not a low output mic at all. Maybe the 440 is different than the 444.
I have look into it.
|
HawkeyeKane
1797 posts
Jun 20, 2013
7:29 AM
|
I'm kinda following the praise of the OP. Until recently, I had not used my rebuilt JT30 very much because the output was not all that strong. I have to turn the volume control nearly all the way up to get a good response from it. Don't get me wrong, I love its tone. It's an MC-564-1 ceramic. Nasal and honky, very bright. Last night was the first time I used it extensively in a gig since getting it rebuilt and painted. It was very feedback prone, but man the brightness was delightful for several different applications. I'm definitely gonna start using it more often.
----------
Hawkeye Kane
|
Rick Davis
1989 posts
Jun 20, 2013
7:30 AM
|
This is my 1959 Shure 440SL with a Greg Heumann vintage volume control. The element that came in these mics is the 99B86 controlled magnetic, this one dated to June of '59. The output can be as high as two volts on a big chord.
There is no need to defend lower output mics. High output does not make a harp mic better; it is just an interesting feature. It becomes a challenge when building harp amps to accommodate the range of signals that mics can produce so the input section of the amp does not get overwhelmed. That's why amps often have multiple input jacks.
This mic sounds different than a vintage green bullet. It cuts like a knife and has a very nice edgy crunch. It sounds slightly bright and has explosive dynamic range. Lots of harp players have used this mic at my jam and not everybody likes it as much as I do. It's a matter of personal taste. Nic Clark is playing this mic in the recent video I put up of the new Mission Delta Sonic amp.
----------
-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Jun 20, 2013 8:25 AM
|
chromaticblues
1415 posts
Jun 20, 2013
8:38 AM
|
OOp's I'm wrong the 444 is not the same as the 440.
|
Greg Heumann
2212 posts
Jun 20, 2013
9:17 AM
|
Lower output mics help tame amps with too much gain- but no different than using a volume control.
@Wolf - if you will simply set your amp up with lower gain tubes you'll be able to use any mic you want, still get good tone, and have a more manageable approach to feedback. You have 12ax7-12ay7-12ax7 - I recommend 12AX7 12AU7 12AU7. You will be able to get the volume up to 7 or 8 - the sound you like comes from driving the power tubes harder and this will do that as well. But mostly the amp will just be more controllable and you'll be able to play much closer to the feedback threshold and still manage it - especially if you have a volume control.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
SmokeJS
111 posts
Jun 20, 2013
3:21 PM
|
Greg, would it be fair to say, all things such as tone being equal, that a mic with a volume control might as well be used with a hotter element as it will provide suitability with a wider range of amplifiers?
PS: Nice volume control on the 440. The custom knurled knob looks both elegant and substantially heavy without size and the line on top effective.
Last Edited by SmokeJS on Jun 20, 2013 3:24 PM
|
Rick Davis
1994 posts
Jun 20, 2013
4:07 PM
|
I agree the volume control control is elegant as well as effective, but that line on the top of the knob is a reflection. I'm not sure if Greg offers a line there; he may.
----------
-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
|
Greg Heumann
2217 posts
Jun 20, 2013
9:57 PM
|
@Smoke - Yes!
@Rick - I offer indicator lines on volume knobs if/when people want them. They are scribed into the aluminum. The fact of the matter is that once you're used to a VC you adjust it by feel anyway - nobody constantly takes the mic away from their harp to look at the volume knob. So for aesthetics sake I don't put them on unless asked.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
Greg Heumann
2218 posts
Jun 21, 2013
6:44 AM
|
The element doesn't have to be put in a shell. You just have to have access to a bunch of them at a time. I have a 1/4" cable with test clips on the other end. You can hold the element in your hand and cup it to give a perfectly adequate test without putting it in a shell at all.
----------
***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
|
