jayrich
17 posts
May 28, 2013
3:38 AM
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Hello fellow harpers..
soo, i think i can play "tears in heaven" on my C diatonic harp...
but when i play it with a backing track it sounds all wrong :(
so, simple question..but..what key is the backing track meant to be in and the harmonica meant to be in..in relation to the song?
pls help as i love playing along to a backing track when possible!
Happy harping :)
Jay
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Grey Owl
150 posts
May 28, 2013
4:42 AM
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Tricky one this as the key moves around a bit.
It's basically in A on Clapton's acoustic version.
So using an A harp on the verses you could play +5+4+6+6+5-5-5+5-4+4+5-4etc.,
Still using an A harp on the chorus :- +4+4-4-3-3*-3*+4-3** etc.,
There is then a key change to C on the bridge, so using a C harp:- +5+5-4-4+4,+4-3**-4-3**-3 etc.,
I don't know if there is an easy solution using just one harp.
Good luck.
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jayrich
18 posts
May 28, 2013
5:39 AM
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thanks Grey Owl, looks like I picked a tricky song!
ah ok..but so in general..if u pick the harp the key of the song..does this mean that you should be able to play along to the backing track??
my problem is ..the harps i play the song on..never seem to match the backing track..so i cant use a backing track?
hope this makes sense?
Jay
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JInx
443 posts
May 28, 2013
5:53 AM
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You can figure it out using a little music theory, or simply try different keyed harps until you find the match.
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CWinter
21 posts
May 28, 2013
6:17 AM
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How long you been playin' harp, son?
Music theory 101:
If the song is in the key of A, you want to be playing in the key of A. How you get to the key of A on a diatonic harmonica is not implicitly simple.
You could play an A harp in 1st position, or a D harp in 2nd position, or a G harp in 3rd position. All three of these choices will put you in the key of A.
As was suggested by Jlnx, a little music theory would probably help you out here.
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Grey Owl
151 posts
May 28, 2013
8:01 AM
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If I could give a practical application of what the guys are talking about.
Say you want to play a simple tune like ‘O Susanna’ and your backing track is in the key of A.
If you look at the Circle of fifths diagram below and look at A then playing 1st position means you will choose an A harp whose reeds are tuned to play the simple key of A in the middle part of the harp.
So you would play +4-4+5+6+6-6+5+4-4+5+5-4+4-4
If you choose to play the same song again in key of A but this time in 2nd position (cross harp as is also known and used a lot for blues songs) then you need to pick a different harp. Take one step anti-clockwise to arrive at D and that is the harp key you will need and although this harp is tuned to play the simple key of D in the middle of the harp it can still play the notes required for this key of A tune
Notice the notes played this time they are different from above but still sound the same notes.
+6-6-7-8-8+8-8-7+6 etc., or lower down the harp+3-3**-3-4-4+5-4-3+3
Similarly if you want to play in 3rd position and still play in the key of A, take two steps anti-clockwise to arrive at G. Take the G harp and play the exact same melody, notice again a new layout of notes to play.
-4+5+5overblow-6-6-7-6+5overblow-4etc., This is pretty tricky to play and you probably wouldn’t want to play this harp in that key for this song.
You might consider the easiest way of playing O Susanna in the key of A is to pick the A harp.
Some songs work better in different positions. Take a song like Scarborough Fair which is in a minor key (say it’s an A minor backing track) unlike the one above which is in a major key.
Try the same exercise.
An A harp in 1st position you would play:-
+4+4+6+6+6-4-4overblow-4+4. Um nasty little overblow to play here!
How about a D harp in 2nd position +3+3-4-4-4-3**-3*-3**-2.Um a few tricky draw bends here. Good practice but hard to get nicely if you haven’t been playing long.
So what about a G harp in 3rd position -4-4-6-6-6+5-5+5-4, hey that’s not bad!.
Of course you can keep going around the circle of fifths and try in a different key harp but they generally (not always) get harder. A lot of players are quite happy to play in these three different positions.
If you want to play to a backing track in C, choose your C harp for 1st position, or go one step anti-clockwise on the circle and pick an F harp to play 2nd position or Bb to play in 3rd position.
As the guys said a little music theory would help a lot. Playing pop/rock/ songs does mean you have to get to grips with bending notes and sometimes overblows as well if you are following a melody note for note because a diatonic harmonica does not have the full range of notes available on a simple blow/draw basis.
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Frank
2457 posts
May 28, 2013
8:24 AM
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How many harps do you own jay, and in what keys?
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jayrich
19 posts
May 28, 2013
8:53 AM
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Guys! this is soo helpful and thanks...especially for Grey Owl for the deteailed response above!
So, just to make sure i got this right? you aim to play the song in the key of the song...and then the backing track should AUTOMATICALLY (?) match the instrument solo....now as to how you get the key of the song you can use different positions...as shown by the circle of fifths! thats it right?
Frank, I have two diatonics...a C and G....
Jay
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jayrich
20 posts
May 28, 2013
8:56 AM
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ohh but i also get Grey Owls point of some keys working better for some songs ...based on lack of certain bends and overblows!
Jay
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Grey Owl
153 posts
May 28, 2013
9:37 AM
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Yes Jay you should be playing the harp in the same key as the backing track.
The obvious choice is to pick the harp key that matches the key of the song and for simple songs that is perhaps the best option. You have a C harp so play along with songs that are written in that key. C is the most used harp and as a consequence many youtube lessons are in that key so you can play along and sound right.
You can also use your C harp to play in the key of G (known as 2nd position) and this is what most blues players would use for playing the blues as it means you have to play draw bends from time to time to make the notes that are not normally there on a straight blow or draw. It's these bent notes that sounds so cool on blues songs.
The harmonica is a strange instrument in that respect in that it is assigned to individual keys. I mean you don't have a piano or guitar sold in different keys!! You can play these instruments in any key.
The diatonic harmonica was never designed to play in any other key than the it's named key. ie Want to play in the key of C, grab a C harp. Want to play in D grab a D harp. It's some sort of miracle that players have discovered over time that they can play a lot of notes that are missing, by using a draw or blow bend technique and more recently overblows and overdraws.
These discoveries have made the diatonic harmonica able to play chromatically. In the right hands, Howard Levy etc., can play in any song key on a C harmonica for instance.
For us lesser mortals the ability to be able to play a song in one key on 3 different key harmonicas is an acheivement!
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timeistight
1239 posts
May 28, 2013
9:49 AM
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Where did you get you "Tears in Heaven" backing track? Maybe we can tell you what key it's in.
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CWinter
22 posts
May 28, 2013
1:59 PM
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So, just to make sure i got this right? you aim to play the song in the key of the song...and then the backing track should AUTOMATICALLY (?) match the instrument solo....
Jay, one thing I know for sure. Nothing good really ever happens automatically. If any side of this equation works "automatically" it's going to be your side. The backing track is what it is. You're going to have to adjust to it, not the other way around.
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jayrich
21 posts
May 29, 2013
3:39 AM
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Hi guys...
thank you again all, nearly cracking this!!...
Grey Owl (and Co) just one final thing...can i please check?:
To play 2nd position:
if a song is in the Key of G...ideally the backing track is in the key of G...and the harp is in the key of C? is that rite??
timeistight: the backing track is this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GyxwQHNfYQ
CWinter..I get your point about not being automatic especially for diatonics..when we make so much fit esp with techniques like bending...
Ciao all :)
Jay
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Grey Owl
154 posts
May 29, 2013
4:47 AM
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Jay said "To play 2nd position:
if a song is in the Key of G...ideally the backing track is in the key of G...and the harp is in the key of C? is that rite??"
Yes, that's right Jay. Song/backing track key in G, use a C harp for 2nd position
Btw If you just have a C & G harp, you're going to have problems playing this song which is in the key of A (it can be done as I said above but it's pretty difficult.
If you buy a harp in the key of A it would be good for this song and you could use your C for the bridge as I mentioned.
A is a handy key to have anyway as lots of Blues backing tracks are in the Key of E so you can play along in 2nd position. eg take one step anticlockwise on the circle from the song key E to arrive at the harp key A for 2nd position.
Not wanting to complicate matters but I have tried 'Tears in Heaven' on a D harp which is 2nd position with the song key in A and it works for the whole song with no overblows required but there are lots of lower draw bend notes which could be tricky.
On a D harp Verse -3-2-4-4-3+4+4-3-3**-2-3-3**etc.,
Chorus-2-2-3**-2*, -2**-2**-2+2etc.,
Bridge-4-4+4+4-3*-3*-2+4+3-3**etc.,
D is another good key to buy also but a bit harder (to draw bend)as the pitch is higher than the C,G & A harps.
It's always good to buy harps though:)
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on May 29, 2013 5:06 AM
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Frank
2464 posts
May 29, 2013
5:39 AM
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here are some jam tracks for a C and G harp...
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jayrich
22 posts
May 29, 2013
5:48 AM
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thanks all!!
as usual am practically overcome by the genorisity of the forum members here!! Frank that is so kind.
hopefully i will now be able to play along to backing tracks!
lets keep jamming :)
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