Somebody brought the following video to my attention and I thought folks here would have fun with it. It's Cyndi Lauper and her band in a command performance at the White House, with Charlie blowing harp.
I've only listened to it once, without harps. What I hear is 1) an incredible performance from Lauper, who is a true soul (!) diva; and 2) Charlie, playing in third position, doesn't quite navigate the changes. Or does he? Your thoughts?
is he using an Ab harmonica? i think a Eb would be a better choice then again they have not asked me to play at the white house can i blame that on obama lol ---------- tipjar
The Boss has asked for some opinions..these are just mine.
Awful comes to mind..Cyndi comes over as a wannabe 'soul singer' i don't think she'd know Soul if it bit her on the ass.Screaming and duckin' an divin' around doesn't come over as anything but a parody of the idiom. Maybe she should listen to some Sam Cooke or at least some genuine Gospel groups.Soul needs to groove. Ok James Brown could do a bit of screaming too but he always kept a groove going plus his wasn't ear piercingly shrill. As for Charlie, well might as well not been there,for that song anyway.It just didn't fit right. I have to say that that is the only Lauper song i have ever heard.I just know that someone will probably put up a tube of her singing something like Sam Cookes 'A change is going to come' that will make me eat my words.
Cindy, was on her A game - she brought it, Told the story in a riveting way, inspired and exiting...Well what can I say about Charlie - HE AIN'T NOBODY'S FOOL,he has nothing to prove and KNOW's WHEN to prove something- that is the role he was told to play for that song, bet Ten bucks that's how it was rehearsed :)
I like it. Lauper has the chops and the cred to do whatever she wants at this stage in her career. I liked the harp too, although it didn't blow me away.
This didn't do it for me I afraid. I didn't like the arrangement. I didn't think her voice really suited the song and I felt the harp sounded really out of place/key.
I thought it did get better towards the end though.
Last Edited by Baker on Apr 30, 2013 4:41 AM
I love Cyndi and I love Charlie, but this never took hold with me. If I were directing this band I would not even want harp on this song. Shame they didn't do something to showcase Charlie. The organ, horns, and harp are all to close on tone and timbre. High end mud. I know many of you think harp can be played on anything. Maybe so, but it does not always fit.
I agree with bluemoose' assertion from the previous "Charlie at The White House" thread-
"Loved Charlie and Ben. It sounded to me like someone changed keys and forgot to tell Charlie for the Cyndi number. He still managed to make it sort of fit."
I think Lauper was having huge problems with the sound. She rips out her in ear monitor at the beginning, then has to take the other one out, then puts it back in. Pretty impressive she put out such a charismatic performance with the technical problems.
I think there is a chance Musselwhite grabbed the wrong harp and made due.
Very very strange. The harp was incoherent until the refrain around 3:30. The harp starts sounding really cool at this point but Lauper turns into a very exaggerated caricature of Mick Jagger in drag.
That is one tough song to perform and to play on any instrument. Especially infront of that group of people. Id say she did an excellent job and Musselwhite was on his game throwing in where he could with the best chords and fill ins. He was Taistful without being gawdy. My opinion only.
Lauper does more than a credible performance of this classic; she has the pipes and she has obviously gone to school on the Old School masters. Musselwhite, though, does not really get in the groove. Maybe a different key harmonica might, an Eb perhaps, would have given him more tonal openings, but I think the basic problem was a lack of rehearsal between CM and the Lauper band. I suspect they didn't take time to figure out the best places for Charlie to drop in do what he does. What he does play doesn't really fit the song or performance. Charlie is a personal hero and a gracious man when I interviewed him in the 70s. It pains me to hear him like this. ---------- Ted Burke http://www.youtube.com/user/TheoBurke?feature=mhee
I overheard a rant by Jerry Portnoy a few years ago about Cyndi Lauper. It was one of those where you could not help but overhear, he was talking out loud sort of intending people to hear - a lot of people heard what he was saying, not just me. I was waiting for him to perform at a harmonica blowout in the Chicago area. Before the show, he was talking to some friends at the service bar while I was having my drink. Apparently this was back when the Cyndi Lauper blues album came out, Charlie could not make some dates, and asked Portnoy to substitute for him. His description of Lauper was of a prima donna, very disrespectful of musicians, and a complete bitch. A particular quote was words to the effect that "you blues musicians think you know everything, but you don't know [ ]" Name calling, bad attitude you name it. I guess Jerry got into it with her, and Jerry left the tour. His rant went on for 20 minutes, no BS. Now we can all consider the source from both sides, it was probably a personality conflict. Apparently Charlie's easy going manner works with Lauper's difficult personality, because I still see him on stage with her.
That story aside, she was forcing her singing, trying to sound black, if I may say so, trying to sound soulful, and all it sounds like is screaming without direction. Charlie can barely be heard. And when she first comes out, I can almost see the shit attitude oozing from her on this clip.
Last Edited by atty1chgo on Apr 30, 2013 9:50 AM
I'll start with a little context: I work for the songwriting/performance team Ashford & Simpson (now that Nick has passed it's just Valerie). As a result over the last 3 plus years I have played with many many "name" singers. The reason I personally appreciated this video is I thought it was "realistically" pretty awful, e.g., Cindy IMO is more of a burlesque act than a "soul'' or "blues" singer so this misplaced classic wasn't a good fit for her. And Charlie inherited this misplacement....So why did I appreciate it? Because it's "real world" if you're out there playing with a variety of singers, bands, styles, environments, audiences etc....as opposed to it's musicality. At the end of the day I completely agree with Iceman's terse comment! ---------- Facebook
it sounds like the band comes in on the five chord they play an extra measure, not sure why is that how the original starts? just seems like out of the gate they are off a bit it does not swing. it could be an Eb harp he is using, i can't explain the bad notes charlie has played some, how do you say: lets call them, modern blues harmonica notes, for lack of a better expression, in the past. check out the look she gives him about 1:55 or so. he has most likely played hundreds of gigs with her. i'd bet this was not the first time they have played this. on repeated listening i like this more and more.
the harmonica is the most powerful instrument on the planet next to the human voice. this song is not "that" difficult, it makes me wonder, what if they held auditions for the harp chair, for this gig?"insert favorite harmonica player here" the crowd seem to like this performance, i just seem to think, they could have blown the roof off with this number. ---------- tipjar
Charlie told me he really likes Ms. Lauper. She is down to earth and works very hard. But she doesn't suffer fools well. Interesting contrast between that and Portnoy's view, BOTH of which I can believe. One thing is for certain - she made Charlie a lot of dough over the last few years - and now he's out there repeating it with Ben Harper. They were just on the David Letterman show two nights ago.
As for Charlie's solo on this tune? I sounded really weird to me. Charlie goes out there sometimes but this is further than he usually goes. I wonder if they told him the wrong key, or someone changed the key at the last minute. ---------- ---------- /Greg
Charlie's solo on this tune? He did the best he could under weird circumstances...at the White House, you can't stop the band and call out "Do Over". ---------- The Iceman
Re: Lauper's performance: When this clip began, I was immensely skeptical. There are many white female blues singers who "go black," in a sense, when they try to sing a certain kind of soul or blues--put on exaggerated black stylistics, drawn from what they imagine the black church tradition to be--and I don't like it at all. This is how I initially saw Lauper in this video: working much too hard to prove that she could "do" the black church/soul thing.
But as the cut kept on, as she kept on working it, I suddenly found myself rooting for her. She wasn't winking at the audience, she wasn't holding back, her voice was in tune and she gave the song every single last thing she had to give. That impressed me. I don't like Janis Joplin's effusions at all, but I like what Lauper ends up throwing down here. And I'm surprised by what she was able to do. I see her and Bettye Lavette as equals. There's no way, frankly, that she should be able to sing this kind of song convincingly. The name "Cyndi Lauper" is synonymous for me with 80's pop. But she must have lived quite a life since then, and figured a few things out.
As for how she treats her band: I've never liked musicians who treated their bands/sidemen badly. I remember seeing a famous black jazz singer up at Grant's Tomb in Harlem one summer several decades ago. She publicly chewed out her young black bandmembers while we all sat and watched. I remember that as much as I remember the quality of her voice. I remember Albert King doing the same thing. Don't do it in public! Wait until after the set.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on May 01, 2013 8:42 AM
The harmonica has a lot of strengths in the hands of the right player - it also can have considerable weaknesses in the hands of certain players too...Some players can exploit most every thing the harp is capable of doing. Some players are supremely confident only in certain styles of music, while seemingly timid in others...It seems to me that players like Cindy and Ben aren't that interested in having a KILLER "hot shot" harp player (who can bring it) and steal the show in the blink of an eye. Their happy with Charlie just being a very low keyed, non flashy, keep it very simple kinda player...At least on the tunes that he is not able to showcase his main skills as a harp player - he keeps his playing minimumized and elementary - some could argue to the point of sounding wrong and being boring?
Last Edited by Frank on May 01, 2013 8:47 AM
On second thought--and one second watching--I'm just not sure what I think. I think the "hey, I'm rooting for the girl" moment comes around 3:48, when she keeps upping the energy. Her dance, such as it is, isn't elegant, and I can't argue with anybody who says that it's a sort of unconscious burlesque, a heightened version of something she saw in a Blues Brothers movie rather than something she slowly developed as a member of a black church congregation. By the same token, I don't know many--or ANY??--white female blues/soul singers of Lauper's age (60) who could work the song to quite this level of intensity, using these sort of stage moves. Please supply videos of other such singers if you disagree! So I'll admit that I'm of two minds about what she does here.
Here's the video that made her famous many years ago:
Last Edited by kudzurunner on May 01, 2013 8:53 AM
For a little more historical context, here's Otis ripping it up on a tour of Norway in 1967:
The opening shots show Booker T. Jones and Steve Cropper who were both on stage for the White House show almost five decades later (although I don't think Cropper played during the Lauper segment).
I don't know if you guys are familiar with Alison Moyet. She was a big star in the 80's UK and has a fantastic voice. I read a quote from her a while ago which whilst in no way directed at Cyndi Lauper, I think it somewhat rings true.
'When I was a teenager, Gladys Knight and Chaka Khan could do the noodling, but they did it with a finesse that never lost sight of the melody. So much of it now is like having a wank on the climbing frames. You just feel like saying, 'alright! Stop now!' In some ways, I get it because you'e young and thinking about passion, you want to sing [adopts tortured voice], 'Ohhhh noooo!' But you end up with singers who start every line with a semi-gravelly belch. I think, 'Mate, if you're trying to make that noise, you should smoke some more fags. Don't try to create that sound with just phlegm.'
I thoroughly enjoyed that, THANKS. She's so awesome...as black as white can be....calling out the crowd to get out of their heads, and into their hearts... richly deserved standing ovation, too. As for Charlie,..my hero! - knowing when to not play masterful! (kinda...at first, sounded a little out of key?). My first reaction when he started comping was, oh good!! he's gonna do something in 3rd pos. For me, having learned a couple of his songs, where he switches around with 1,2, and 3. Though, not all three, far as I know...? "Make My Getaway" is good example... I thought he navigated beautifully around the center of attention. She a ham with heart...a crowd pleaser... I always enjoyed the one with Charlie on the Donald Trump "Your Fired" show. (just your fool). She steals it like a master!
omg, I cant believe all of you great musicians liked this performance. Nothing about it was good. My wfe who is tone deaf, from across the room said "who the hell is that and why are you still listening to it"? I agreed and cut it off. HORRIBLE
I like Cyndi's historical boppy pop & I'm a huge fan of Charlie Musselwhite but I'm with @undertheradar on this one.
What's the big deal? Live doesn't always work, and even the best play like crap occasionally. Just call it like it is. Shit happens...Deal with it. Charlie dealt with it. Don't over-analyze it!
This is a vocalist,keyboard,and horn song,not a harp song.Lauper did alright,and charlie just tried to hang in.I thought the keyboard and horn arrangements didn't come up to snuff at all.What happens live,just didn't sizzle.Trying to accentuate a singers voice on this number is super hard.
It´s absolutely no probs playing harp to "Try a little tenderness", done it several times, but it helps if you know the changes, and C M is clearly out of his depth here.
I'm of the "I didn't do it for me camp". I think Charlie's playing added an interesting touch, but Cindy's performance made me cringe. I would like to hear a critique from Randy Jackson (my favorite American Idol judge).
I think C.M. is a great player. This is a hard piece for harp. IMO you can tackle this tune in different ways ... Lean on and blend in with the brass section, line and sound wise, or Back up and enhance the singer , or Find space where the harp can stand its own ground, lines and soundwise ... or like C.M. did ... lean back, turn the amp down and look cool. Regarding C.L. ... I liked it ... why? It was all heart and felt true ... and she can sing ... she can really sing ... at moments she was closing in on Janis Joplin
I've never been much of a Cyndi Lauper fan (and her turn to the blues hasn't changed that). But I think it's super cool that she's given Charlie a chance to shine in front of a whole new audience. And based on what he and his wife/manager told me over lunch a couple years back, she pays well and takes great care of her band. Charlie said touring with her has been a blast.
Regarding this particular tune, I agree that harp's not a great fit. Unless they were to carve out a solo, I'd have just left it out. But that wouldn't get Charlie on the stage in the White House, would it? ;-)
My only point was, anything that gets Charlie more time in the limelight is good by me. And I do agree he made the most of it. I would have loved to see them carve out a wee bit for him to solo.
I've tried to like Lauper. This is s great performance no doubt but I didn't find it convincing. A little intimidating maybe. Nothing against her, just not really my cuppa. I don't think it was bad, it was even entertaining in a music hall Cabaret kind of way. Conjured passion, but I always felt I was watching acting rather than sincerity. I didn't buy the car but I enjoyed the test drive. Charlie Musselwhite's association with lauper makes me like her more...I probably wouldn't have paid any attention to her new career had it not been for discovering Charlie was working with her. He gave her a little more credibility from my pov. On this song, I have no idea what he was doing at first, but after awhile the stuff began to sound pretty cool. I just like his style, that apparently amused grin he seems to always wear, reminds me of my brother. He was one of the first contemporary (i.e. still alive and performing) harp players I was aware of back when I became interested in the instrument. Him and John Mayall probably, and Musselwhite really made an impression after I'd been thinking Mayall's playing was something to aspire to. Hard for me to be objective about him, to me, he's the star, Cyndi is a try hard wannabe. Albeit, a very successful wannabe.. ;0) ----------
Checked Cyndi Lauper's wikipedia page and found it interesting that of the 20 tours she's done in the past 30 years, the Blues tour had the most shows: 143.
Only harmonica players think it´s great when an instrumentalist is playing the wrong notes, "´cause it´s harmonica" and "anything that gets the harmonica into the spotlight is great", no matter that you can´t handle the song.
It´s certainly no wonder that musicians tend to look down on harmonica players: we´ve earned it.
In 1967, Thelonious Monk heard someone on Columbia University's WKCR-FM droning on about how Monk had created extraordinary music in spite of "playing the wrong notes on the piano." Monk called the station and left a message: "Tell the guy on the air the piano ain't got no wrong notes."
Maybe I was sticking up for Charlie,but definately he could have done better.Yes a Eb harp would really be able to cut a swath through this tune,stepping on the singer,and horns,although I haven't heard your harmonica version.Yeah they wanna look down,but those are the cats that don't want to admit when they play mediocre.
Last Edited by capnj on May 02, 2013 7:30 PM
Timeistight, nice anecdote. It expressed my opinion perfectly.
There are notes that are harmonious and there are notes that are dissonant notes. There is an art to knowing what you want to do in any given spot, but 'wrong' is the wrong word unless you are trying to play something note for note and you just simply hit a different note than you intended, and even then, if you're quick on your feet you can turn it into something useful if you know what to play after it.
Truthfully, this didn't hold my interest at all. Charlie is a great player but I didnt think he sounded very good here. Lauper danced like an elephant on hot coals. I think it was a great band phoning in a dog and pony show performance. Just my reaction which is not worth Jack Shit. I am sure that it is an honor for Charlie to be there but I am sure that the actual performance would not be one of his favorites
There may be no wrong notes on the instrument but there are poor choices of those notes. thats just a typical quote that sounds witty but is actually pretty lame. No wrong letters in the alphabet either-but Shakespeare did a lot better job with those letters than your average 5th grader writing a book report.
@timeistight and nacoran: You´re perfectly entitled to your view -- and, on a somewhat higher (musical) order -- T Monk´s. It´s a form of confusion, perhaps harmless, and perhaps slightly "sophisticated", but still confusion.
But don´t try proposing that notion when you´re playing with musicians and have, say, accidentally picked a harmonica a halftone away from the song key, or, as CM above, don´t know the tune. Rest assured there are wrong notes.
