jim
1392 posts
Apr 05, 2013
11:51 AM
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Same mic
Same licks
Same player
Same breathing
Same room
Same gear
Something's different... definitely different. Your ideas?
HARMONICA SAMPLES
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Last Edited by jim on Apr 05, 2013 11:52 AM
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ReedSqueal
402 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:11 PM
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2 different harps.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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jim
1393 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:14 PM
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ReedSqueal:
what's your guess on the difference between them?
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jodanchudan
828 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:16 PM
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The second version sounds brighter to me, as if it the hands are closed in the first and open in the second (though I don't think that's the cause). No idea why though.
Edit: the second sounds louder too. Knowing you, it's something to do with tuning!
Last Edited by jodanchudan on Apr 05, 2013 1:21 PM
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jim
1394 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:23 PM
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Both are "A" Richters :-) As you hear on chords/intervals. Intonated the same way too...
Good idea about hands, but I specifically tried to avoid that - I held them with 2 fingers. Right hand, to be extra safe.
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jodanchudan
829 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:24 PM
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Hmmm... Back opened up on one but not the other?
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jim
1395 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:26 PM
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Sounds like a variant... but there's no... idea behind such a comparison. You know...
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Grey Owl
48 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:26 PM
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On the 3rd sample sounds like one harp is playing blow/draw and the other doing the same sound but using draw/blow to do it.
Is that the angle - so on the single note samples you are playing draw notes and bends on one harp and the same notes on the other harp playing the same lick with blow notes and blow bends?
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Last Edited by Grey Owl on Apr 05, 2013 1:27 PM
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ReedSqueal
403 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:45 PM
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My guess is (same key, same tuning) but 2 different manufacturers. And one of them is a Golden Melody ;-)
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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jim
1396 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:47 PM
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Same key.
@ReedSqueal:
which one's which then?
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ReedSqueal
404 posts
Apr 05, 2013
1:57 PM
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The first harp is the GM. Key of A.
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Go ahead and play the blues if it'll make you happy.
-Dan Castellaneta
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jodanchudan
830 posts
Apr 05, 2013
2:11 PM
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I prefer the second - more natural somehow. Is there a difference in comb material?
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jim
1397 posts
Apr 05, 2013
2:15 PM
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Combs are exactly the same.
Under exactly, I mean that I personally flat-sanded and polished both to best flatness to ensure they don't interfere.
Yes, combs are plastic. More consistent as a material.
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Grey Owl
49 posts
Apr 05, 2013
2:45 PM
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ummm Process of elimination. Is the second Stainless steel reeds?
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jim
1398 posts
Apr 05, 2013
3:08 PM
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@Grey Owl:
Why do you think so?
I want to make you think and understand what actually changes the timbre, and in what way.
Some facts that you have already named correctly:
1) First one is duller / cut on the high end.
2) Second one is louder (in fact, I play them with the same force, so it's more dynamic and more responsive, but yes, it results in higher volume.)
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jim
1399 posts
Apr 05, 2013
3:09 PM
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Did I say there are only 2 instruments in the whole clip? Played sequentially: X - Y - X - Y - X - Y.
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Last Edited by jim on Apr 06, 2013 11:32 AM
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Grey Owl
50 posts
Apr 05, 2013
3:21 PM
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I'm probably entirely wrong, but I have recently bought some Ben Bouman Seydels 1847's & Session Steels (my first try at SS reeds) and I thought your second harp had a similar resonance.
Mind you these blind tests are difficult. I remember putting up a blind test on five harps in C (hohners and suzukis) and the guesses were not accurate even though I provided the names of the models I was playing.
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jim
1400 posts
Apr 06, 2013
8:47 AM
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1847 is harmonica #1 in the sample.
Typical sound of it, I would say. Less overtones, less volume, less response.
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AZBluesHarper
14 posts
Apr 06, 2013
8:52 AM
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Ok...I'll bite. Could you be alternating puckering with tongue blocking??? I detect some minute differences...
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jim
1401 posts
Apr 06, 2013
9:02 AM
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I specifically avoided all of that.
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easyreeder
357 posts
Apr 06, 2013
10:21 AM
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My first guess was reed material, but you've already given half a clue for that. I'll guess Marineband for the second harp. The difference is most notable on the second lick for me.
But I don't understand your sequence: X - X - Y - X - Y
Did you not alternate harps on every lick?
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jim
1402 posts
Apr 06, 2013
11:32 AM
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I alternated them. X Y X Y. Just a typo.
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Fishlips
2 posts
Apr 06, 2013
1:56 PM
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Does the second harp have phosphor bronze reeds?
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Shaganappi
18 posts
Apr 06, 2013
2:26 PM
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My guess is that Jim is trying to show that there is no significant difference between two harps or something like that. In any case, that is my ear. I am not nearly as accomplished as most of the forum players but that is the point. Most listeners (non-players if in a bar) that a player is playing to are even less able to appreciate the subtle distinctions as even I can. So what is the difference?
Does this demonstrate that all this fine tuning is often not necessary? That it is the technique and feeling that rules v. some arcane technical adjustment to a harp? Good posting - makes one think. Waiting on the answer after a bunch more people weigh in. Keep us waiting Jim.
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jim
1403 posts
Apr 06, 2013
3:20 PM
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You should think, not ask. You hear the difference, right? Now try to think what parameters do harmonicas have. How they affect sound.
I kept my playing more or less the same for both instruments.
Too bad I had to cut off the last part - it clipped:
That last phrase was at max volume for both instruments. This shows there's significant difference in dynamics of those instruments.
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tmf714
1672 posts
Apr 06, 2013
3:42 PM
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Cover plates-
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jim
1404 posts
Apr 06, 2013
3:59 PM
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@tmf714:
Aha! What harp has which coverplates then?
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jim
1405 posts
Apr 08, 2013
2:23 PM
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1st sample is a stock 1847.
2nd is a 1847 with a whole different set of steel reeds, hand-selected, hand-cut, installed with screws. Indifidually profiled. I made those reeds from other SS reeds, including saxony. No other modifications done to harmonica #2.
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Last Edited by jim on Apr 08, 2013 2:24 PM
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tookatooka
3240 posts
Apr 09, 2013
9:41 AM
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So what are you saying? The difference in sound quality was not that great considering the amount of work involved on the second harp?
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HarpNinja
3292 posts
Apr 09, 2013
11:23 AM
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There is a significant different in the offset of reeds between the two pictures. This gap is noticeable the entire length of the reed and would, in fact, impact the playability of the harp as well as timbre to at least some extent.
I can hear the difference, but you eventually reach the point of diminishing returns, right?
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boris_plotnikov
850 posts
Apr 09, 2013
11:48 AM
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Keep dreaming fo perfect harps. Perfect toleranceas are already possible (embossing or custom reedplates). Jim is on the way to perfect profiles, respect to him. Next dreams are perfect lenght, width, reedplate thickness.
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tomaxe
34 posts
Apr 09, 2013
1:28 PM
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Personal preferences and modifications aside, I think the only real way to do a blind test with a harmonica would be to have some sort of robotic device that could push the same air pressure through the holes in the comb the same way and in the exact same rhythm for each harmonica tested. You could test 2 harmonicas—an “A” sample and a “B” sample, with an “X” sample being either “A” or “B” played at random intervals during the test. If a group of listeners could accurately determine whether “X” is “A” or “B”(within 80% accuracy consistently, say), then you could indeed safely say that there is an audible difference between “A” and “B”. Once that is established—by these group of listeners— then a discussion can proceed on which harmonica sounds better/worse/brighter/flatter/air-y, etc. Anything less than this is not really scientific. It may be fun to listen to and discuss but it is not really a blind test.
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jim
1406 posts
Apr 09, 2013
3:58 PM
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@tomaxe:
No problem. I have such a device!
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